your take on pruning with spurs on

ronnyb · 12th December 2007, 09:09 AM

Snow, snow, and more snow. We've been snow plowing for most of the last 2 weeks. As far as dressing for the cold- layers. No cotton either, it traps sweat. I tend to dress light. Thin long underwear, Mountain Hardwear pants, long sleeve teeshirt, synthetic long sleeve top, and my insulated hoodie. When it's time to climb, I take the hoodie off. You do have to move fast, and when you do you warm up to a comfortable temperature. Big removals aren't fun, waiting for the groundies to take care of the limb and get the rope back to you. You just have to keep constantly moving.

Ekka · 13th December 2007, 02:17 AM

Lets see some ice climbing snow pics then, this'll be good. Must be a bugger raking up.

bigshea13 · 22nd December 2007, 07:49 PM

just got back from oaklahoma where the trees are f*cked and the ice is thick. i dont care how good you think you are........you dont climb these guys hookless.

newguy18 · 22nd December 2007, 08:03 PM

I'm probabley gonna get chewed out for this but if its a matter of personal saftey then ???? the tree.I've never had to use gaffs on a trim job yet but who knows the day may very well come.

bigshea13 · 22nd December 2007, 08:06 PM

more pics of dendrocicles

yooper · 22nd December 2007, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Lets see some ice climbing snow pics then, this'll be good. Must be a bugger raking up.

Raking in the snow to funny, when I did r.o.w. work we would just step the crap into the snow, as we wher bent over pretending to pick it up .we average about 300 inches of snow here once lake superior cools down. and on a good yr I have seen over 400in. I dont do to much winter work now that I work for my self...just dont get the calls.. other wise I would. but when I do I just make a deal to show up in the spring to clean up the rakings. This year we dont have much snow yet was a couple feet on the ground a few days ago but got warm rained and only about a foot now.

my winter entertainment

quercus · 22nd December 2007, 11:20 PM

I can't believe what I'm reading here and I can't believe some of you are pruning with spurs...Even palms...
Palms are also trees in my humble opinion.
Like Shigo said: if it's big enough to fall over and kill you, it's a tree.
All people are created equal, and therefore all trees are created equal. I respect a tree like I would respect another human being. The ability to understand a tree and to respect it, is what makes us arborists. My mentors always tought me, that there are no ugly or beatifull trees. Only healthy and mutilated trees...

-Pruning with gaffs is definitely a no-no on ALL trees. The ability to prune without the use of gaffs is what makes us go trough life as arborists, instead of treebutchers.Who cares if one can see the wounds in the tree or not. Who cares if the wounds in the tree only begin at a certain height? I would know that they are there and wouldn't be able to sleep for a week. If you are not able to prune without them, then don't prune at all. If there wasn't a way to prune without gaffs, I'd find a way and by doing so, I'd distinguish myself as an arborist.

-If a branch of a tree is not thick or strong enough to use as a tie in point, then it probably won't be heavy enough to create serious damage if it were to fall of that tree. Instead of climbing with gaffs I'd create a perimeter around the tree so even if branches fall off, they wouldn't create damage at all.

-If I get a contract for clearing powerlines, then that company must rely on my expertise instead of putting me under pressure. Climbing under pressure is definitely a mistake to begin with. I wouldn't set my principles aside to make a quick euro, for you guys that's a quick dollar. This is also something what makes us arborists, instead of treebutchers. The powerline company must understand this and you have to make them understand, that the wounds whom will definitely occur during pruning with gaffs, are most likely to create more damage in the future. The fact that they hire an arborist to begin with, is proof that they can't do it themselves and therefore need someone with expertise. Why would they hire someone and then say to that person how he is supposed to do his job? Have you ever let a client decide on the techniques or how you are supposed to do your job?

-The fact that one cannot climb fast enough to meet the client's demands or to meet the quote he has given, does not give him the right to mutilate a tree in any way.If we conduct our business this way, we are proving that money comes before knowledge, safety and the health of the tree and that's certainly NOT what an arborist stands for. You have to make them understand that it's gonna be your way or no way. Explain why it simply can't be done with gaffs, and explain the reason why in many cases the tree-problem is getting even bigger even if it may seem that the problem they're having now is solved.

-Ekka, I'm surprised to hear that you, the man who has made a nice video of a perfectly good and safe trunk walk, climb with gaffs to prune on certain trees. Even palms are to be respected in every way possible. People have been climbing big palms without gaffs or specialized equipment for century's, maybe even for thousands of years. Are you now saying that it can't be done, even knowing that the gear we have now is exponentially safer then the gear they had then? I've seen thai-arborists (without gaffs) prune trees without the use of specialized gear. I've seen them succesfully pruning very big branches over glass structures using only one thick rope and the most beatiful spider-legs one can imagine... All that without the use of hooks, slings, grcs's or whatever. Sure, it takes longer, but the result is the same. We have to remind ourselves once in a while that other people all over the world , who might not be so lucky to have all this gear, still are getting the job done... So think about that before you say that a certain job can't be done.

-someone needed an explanation as to what snow ACTUALLY is? Very simple. Snow is only frozen water. There's only one rule regarding to snow.
DON'T EAT YELLOW SNOW!!!

jim1nz · 22nd December 2007, 11:50 PM

I like your ethical arb passion quercus, good on ya

Therrin · 23rd December 2007, 03:47 AM

Well I guess now that someone has broched the "yellow snow" joke we can all stop wondering who it's gonna be.

And Quercus, I think you're probably right. I figured out a way to do the pines that I had mentioned without gaffs. You'd only need about 500 feet of tubular webbing, but you could do it I suppose. Maybe I'll try it someday =)

Most of the stuff out here isn't cleared because someone's worried where the branches are gonna drop, or that they don't love their trees.... they're worried about the stuff catching on FIRE like a tiki torch and setting their house on fire.
I'd say that at that place, the trees aren't of a propper type for that area, or their location to the structures. But I still think that open-mindedness has a place on the table, alongside passion.

bigshea13 · 23rd December 2007, 02:06 PM

hey querqus.. what a beautifully constructed sinerio. too bad the picture you painted doesnt fit on my wall. when your confronted with the dilema of someone needing work{ leader removal or even deadwood removal} but they dont have close to enough cash to pay for the professional job one must make a decision. do i 1.)leave the tree, the potential danger because i cant obtain the needed rate to justifiably do the job. 2.) do the job for peanuts.. because my next goal in life is to become a member of the red cross. 3.) or do the job in 1/4 of the time, effort, and cash with hooks on.
For me the choice is obvious. ive hooked right of ways for utilities on 3yr cycles. im no stranger to the effects of gaffs on trees. its my opinion that done with care and caution a tree will fair just fine after a hooked trim.
As far as the utilities and their regulations...its like telling opec they need to instill better regulations on oil pricing. its not going to happen. time is money to the utilities, LOTTSA FRIGGIN MONEY!!! if we could all make it in life on our love of trees alone then we'd all be rich. If they had it their way all right of ways would be clearcut , mowed and sprayed with some kind of herbicide. so i guess unless you could set em up with some "real" arborists that are able to maintain(without hooks) the amount if power lines that a crew like mine does , you owe guys like me a thank you for risking our lives maintaining those lines and keeping them from being clearcut and sprayed.
you know querkiss, theres more to it than just right and wrong. judging from your remarks your not acustom to tall, ice, and snow covered trees around kv lines. is this correct. sometimes you have to put things into perspective and be realistic.

Ekka · 23rd December 2007, 05:45 PM

This is great.

I'll be handing a few of these out soon.

newguy18 · 23rd December 2007, 06:45 PM

pomme · 24th December 2007, 04:08 AM

[B"]Ekka, I'm surprised to hear that you, the man who has made a nice video of a perfectly good and safe trunk walk, climb with gaffs to prune on certain trees. Even palms are to be respected in every way possible. People have been climbing big palms without gaffs or specialized equipment for century's, maybe even for thousands of years. Are you now saying that it can't be done, even knowing that the gear we have now is exponentially safer then the gear they had then? I've seen thai-arborists (without gaffs) prune trees without the use of specialized gear. I've seen them succesfully pruning very big branches over glass structures using only one thick rope and the most beatiful spider-legs one can imagine... All that without the use of hooks, slings, grcs's or whatever. Sure, it takes longer, but the result is the same. We have to remind ourselves once in a while that other people all over the world , who might not be so lucky to have all this gear, still are getting the job done... So think about that before you say that a certain job can't be done" quercus
[/b]

Nice in theory but how many of these people fall to their deaths, our climbing equipment has evolved for safety of the worker over years. i have been in this industry for 20 years and over that time have seen many changes and each point in time we think what we are doing is the best it can get. Rest assured changes will come some good some bad, thats what is exciting about our industry its evolving every day and we as arborists are driving that. This forum is driving that also as knowlage is no good if its not shared. Debate is good just keep it civil

learn from each other not shoot each other down.

All the best for the Christmas Season

jim1nz · 24th December 2007, 04:48 AM

For sure we all have to be realistic in our work but if we all try to do our little bit... Seriously if we at least try to improve the arb world scene, the environment around us then everyones better off a.

jim1nz · 24th December 2007, 04:52 AM

nice one pomme

View Poll Results: Is it ok to use spurs when prunning ?
ok if used for power line clearence ?	3	3.80%
Ok if the price is cheaper for homeowner ?	2	2.53%
Ok if used a ladder for the frist 20 feet so mark arent seen?	1	1.27%
If spurs make the climb safer it is OK ?	10	12.66%
Only hacks use spikes to prune trees ?	66	83.54%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

12th December 2007, 09:09 AM	#76 (permalink)
ronnyb Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 64	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on Snow, snow, and more snow. We've been snow plowing for most of the last 2 weeks. As far as dressing for the cold- layers. No cotton either, it traps sweat. I tend to dress light. Thin long underwear, Mountain Hardwear pants, long sleeve teeshirt, synthetic long sleeve top, and my insulated hoodie. When it's time to climb, I take the hoodie off. You do have to move fast, and when you do you warm up to a comfortable temperature. Big removals aren't fun, waiting for the groundies to take care of the limb and get the rope back to you. You just have to keep constantly moving.

13th December 2007, 02:17 AM	#77 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,738	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on Lets see some ice climbing snow pics then, this'll be good. Must be a bugger raking up. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

22nd December 2007, 08:03 PM	#79 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,857	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on I'm probabley gonna get chewed out for this but if its a matter of personal saftey then ???? the tree.I've never had to use gaffs on a trim job yet but who knows the day may very well come. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

22nd December 2007, 11:20 PM	#82 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on I can't believe what I'm reading here and I can't believe some of you are pruning with spurs...Even palms... Palms are also trees in my humble opinion. Like Shigo said: if it's big enough to fall over and kill you, it's a tree. All people are created equal, and therefore all trees are created equal. I respect a tree like I would respect another human being. The ability to understand a tree and to respect it, is what makes us arborists. My mentors always tought me, that there are no ugly or beatifull trees. Only healthy and mutilated trees... -Pruning with gaffs is definitely a no-no on ALL trees. The ability to prune without the use of gaffs is what makes us go trough life as arborists, instead of treebutchers.Who cares if one can see the wounds in the tree or not. Who cares if the wounds in the tree only begin at a certain height? I would know that they are there and wouldn't be able to sleep for a week. If you are not able to prune without them, then don't prune at all. If there wasn't a way to prune without gaffs, I'd find a way and by doing so, I'd distinguish myself as an arborist. -If a branch of a tree is not thick or strong enough to use as a tie in point, then it probably won't be heavy enough to create serious damage if it were to fall of that tree. Instead of climbing with gaffs I'd create a perimeter around the tree so even if branches fall off, they wouldn't create damage at all. -If I get a contract for clearing powerlines, then that company must rely on my expertise instead of putting me under pressure. Climbing under pressure is definitely a mistake to begin with. I wouldn't set my principles aside to make a quick euro, for you guys that's a quick dollar. This is also something what makes us arborists, instead of treebutchers. The powerline company must understand this and you have to make them understand, that the wounds whom will definitely occur during pruning with gaffs, are most likely to create more damage in the future. The fact that they hire an arborist to begin with, is proof that they can't do it themselves and therefore need someone with expertise. Why would they hire someone and then say to that person how he is supposed to do his job? Have you ever let a client decide on the techniques or how you are supposed to do your job? -The fact that one cannot climb fast enough to meet the client's demands or to meet the quote he has given, does not give him the right to mutilate a tree in any way.If we conduct our business this way, we are proving that money comes before knowledge, safety and the health of the tree and that's certainly NOT what an arborist stands for. You have to make them understand that it's gonna be your way or no way. Explain why it simply can't be done with gaffs, and explain the reason why in many cases the tree-problem is getting even bigger even if it may seem that the problem they're having now is solved. -Ekka, I'm surprised to hear that you, the man who has made a nice video of a perfectly good and safe trunk walk, climb with gaffs to prune on certain trees. Even palms are to be respected in every way possible. People have been climbing big palms without gaffs or specialized equipment for century's, maybe even for thousands of years. Are you now saying that it can't be done, even knowing that the gear we have now is exponentially safer then the gear they had then? I've seen thai-arborists (without gaffs) prune trees without the use of specialized gear. I've seen them succesfully pruning very big branches over glass structures using only one thick rope and the most beatiful spider-legs one can imagine... All that without the use of hooks, slings, grcs's or whatever. Sure, it takes longer, but the result is the same. We have to remind ourselves once in a while that other people all over the world , who might not be so lucky to have all this gear, still are getting the job done... So think about that before you say that a certain job can't be done. -someone needed an explanation as to what snow ACTUALLY is? Very simple. Snow is only frozen water. There's only one rule regarding to snow. DON'T EAT YELLOW SNOW!!!

22nd December 2007, 11:50 PM	#83 (permalink)
jim1nz Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on I like your ethical arb passion quercus, good on ya __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

23rd December 2007, 03:47 AM	#84 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,318	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on Well I guess now that someone has broched the "yellow snow" joke we can all stop wondering who it's gonna be. And Quercus, I think you're probably right. I figured out a way to do the pines that I had mentioned without gaffs. You'd only need about 500 feet of tubular webbing, but you could do it I suppose. Maybe I'll try it someday =) Most of the stuff out here isn't cleared because someone's worried where the branches are gonna drop, or that they don't love their trees.... they're worried about the stuff catching on FIRE like a tiki torch and setting their house on fire. I'd say that at that place, the trees aren't of a propper type for that area, or their location to the structures. But I still think that open-mindedness has a place on the table, alongside passion. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

23rd December 2007, 02:06 PM	#85 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on hey querqus.. what a beautifully constructed sinerio. too bad the picture you painted doesnt fit on my wall. when your confronted with the dilema of someone needing work{ leader removal or even deadwood removal} but they dont have close to enough cash to pay for the professional job one must make a decision. do i 1.)leave the tree, the potential danger because i cant obtain the needed rate to justifiably do the job. 2.) do the job for peanuts.. because my next goal in life is to become a member of the red cross. 3.) or do the job in 1/4 of the time, effort, and cash with hooks on. For me the choice is obvious. ive hooked right of ways for utilities on 3yr cycles. im no stranger to the effects of gaffs on trees. its my opinion that done with care and caution a tree will fair just fine after a hooked trim. As far as the utilities and their regulations...its like telling opec they need to instill better regulations on oil pricing. its not going to happen. time is money to the utilities, LOTTSA FRIGGIN MONEY!!! if we could all make it in life on our love of trees alone then we'd all be rich. If they had it their way all right of ways would be clearcut , mowed and sprayed with some kind of herbicide. so i guess unless you could set em up with some "real" arborists that are able to maintain(without hooks) the amount if power lines that a crew like mine does , you owe guys like me a thank you for risking our lives maintaining those lines and keeping them from being clearcut and sprayed. you know querkiss, theres more to it than just right and wrong. judging from your remarks your not acustom to tall, ice, and snow covered trees around kv lines. is this correct. sometimes you have to put things into perspective and be realistic.

23rd December 2007, 05:45 PM	#86 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,738	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on This is great. I'll be handing a few of these out soon. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

23rd December 2007, 06:45 PM	#87 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,857	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

24th December 2007, 04:08 AM	#88 (permalink)
pomme Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: england Posts: 227	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on [B"]Ekka, I'm surprised to hear that you, the man who has made a nice video of a perfectly good and safe trunk walk, climb with gaffs to prune on certain trees. Even palms are to be respected in every way possible. People have been climbing big palms without gaffs or specialized equipment for century's, maybe even for thousands of years. Are you now saying that it can't be done, even knowing that the gear we have now is exponentially safer then the gear they had then? I've seen thai-arborists (without gaffs) prune trees without the use of specialized gear. I've seen them succesfully pruning very big branches over glass structures using only one thick rope and the most beatiful spider-legs one can imagine... All that without the use of hooks, slings, grcs's or whatever. Sure, it takes longer, but the result is the same. We have to remind ourselves once in a while that other people all over the world , who might not be so lucky to have all this gear, still are getting the job done... So think about that before you say that a certain job can't be done" quercus [/b] Nice in theory but how many of these people fall to their deaths, our climbing equipment has evolved for safety of the worker over years. i have been in this industry for 20 years and over that time have seen many changes and each point in time we think what we are doing is the best it can get. Rest assured changes will come some good some bad, thats what is exciting about our industry its evolving every day and we as arborists are driving that. This forum is driving that also as knowlage is no good if its not shared. Debate is good just keep it civil learn from each other not shoot each other down. All the best for the Christmas Season Last edited by pomme : 24th December 2007 at 04:11 AM. Reason: to define quote

24th December 2007, 04:48 AM	#89 (permalink)
jim1nz Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on For sure we all have to be realistic in our work but if we all try to do our little bit... Seriously if we at least try to improve the arb world scene, the environment around us then everyones better off a. __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

24th December 2007, 04:52 AM	#90 (permalink)
jim1nz Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Re: your take on pruning with spurs on nice one pomme __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE