Is your high point above or below the rigging point?

Eric Frei

Obviously for the example chosen we are talking a single leadered tree like a pine.

I have heard some say your tie in point should be above the rigging point as it helps you climb out further and the rigging point should be stronger.

I have also heard that your rigging point should be higher coz you dont want to snap out your high point if you overload it and also the likelihood of your lines getting caught in the rigging is lower.

Have a look at the diagram, what's your thoughts.

And yeah, bit of a poll to see what people generally do.

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Sean Freeman

I voted above the rigging, but I have to complain about putting the beer option in there as you can only choose one...being dipsomanically challanged makes it very hard...no fair . Also i generally natural crotch so that does have a big impact too.

Jeff Darby

We choose above,but we also natural crotch, we try to choose what appears to be the strongest safest method,I mean it has to be a natural branch not epicormic regrowth..but you know what I mean.Also we try to keep the climbing ropes away from the lowering.

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jim1nz

Climbing point always above. But i always try to set my rigging point on a different stem/leader/branch than the one im tied into.

"I have heard some say your tie in point should be above the rigging point as it helps you climb out further and the rigging point should be stronger." Ill agree with that.


Above because;

You need to be able to safely get out on the ends of branches to tip tie. It just makes getting around the tree so much easier.

When you get to the top of the tree, its easier once you have tied in to set your rigging gear below your climbing system.

The chances of the rigging point failing with your climbing line below are greater because you will be rigging of a smaller stem.

Also on that point, the chances of your rigging point failing and taking your roping point with it are very high so whats the point of tying in below?

TreeCo

This is almost exactly my thinking.

Fairfield

I agree with the diffrent leader when poss. The way I like to look at it and tell me if I am wrong is that when rigging something below you (as uncommon as it might be) greatins the chance of a break out of that lead section taking you with it. Looking at the stress factor and all. If you are below the rigging point and it breaks out you have a better chance at staying in you tie in point. Hope that makes some scence.
I do see Jim1nz' point also I guess it comes down to what the tree gives you and what you feel most assured doing.

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jim1nz

My point is, the chance of your rigging system failing WITHOUT TAKING YOU WITH IT is very slim above or below, so if your rigging point is stronger to start with you are better off.

aussieaxeman

hi guys i do a lot of eucs down here so usually rig of a different point than my
life line but yes i agree if you have to rig of the same stem go above.

yooper

I was taught to always rig above my life line. I also always nautral crotch. I do somtimes stray away from what i was tought though. What a hard decision between natural croch and the beer choice!

Eric Frei

Real bad if ya got a crotch full of beer!

Hey, I heard somewhere once too that you're supposed to rig (install block) above your high point (lifeline).

Now, I don't but have tried it and it sucks.

It wasn't something we were taught here but I definitely read it somewhere after an accident. The assessors said the accident was attributed to the rigging point breaking out and taking the high point above it. Had the climber secured below most likely he would have been OK. Now this was about 4 years ago, so somewhere some-one is recommending this from an official source.

I'd like to know who/where etc?

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Sean Freeman

Crickey, you'd have to think there was either decay missed around the rigging point, or well and truely overloaded the rigging to lead to that , unless it was a t/d and they forgot to remove the TIP before cutting the block!!

TrevMcRev

I like my T.I.P above the rigging point. Keeps lines away from each other better i find. I see a lot more potential for things going wrong having stuff being lowered with lines swinging across the path of your climbing line. Your only really gonna break out your rigging point if ya getting carried away with size,dont understand shockloading or dont understand tree structure & defects.

Sunraysia Tree Solutions

I usually go above, going against what the teachers at Burnley ( Uni of Melb) taught us which was to always go below.

I only once ever seen the rigging point go and that was on a poplar and we knew it was probably going to go and didn't care as no damage could have done as the shed below was being demolished anyway, ( plus we were all in a silly mood), so I would say above except for snappy species willows, poplars Kauri pines etc.

Eric Frei

Interesting, why is Burnley teaching going below?

What was their reasoning?

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JohN Dee

At RYDE we were taught to have our tie - in below the rigging point. I myself put my T.I.P above the rigging point at work but put my T.I.P was always below the rigging point as to the teachers request.

Their reasoning behind is the same theory, that in theory if the rigging point is going to break out, it will break out above your T.I.P. I guess from and OHS/paperwork point of view below the rigging point seems the best scenario.

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TrevMcRev

Yeah great theory BUT....

Your rigging is always going to place greater loads on the anchor than a climber will.

So your rig point is up high on smaller diameter stuff and more likely to breakout.

Wheres it gonna fail?

The tree doesnt know where your T.I.P. is! It wont necessarily fail above it.
It will fail at the weakest point, wherever that may be.

Also a climber with a T.I.P too low will struggle to get around the canopy as safe & efficient as they should. Then wonder why they cant get far enough out on branches to cut where they should.

Eric Frei

Well, somewhere some-one had an accident and he tore the top out of the tree.

Along with the top went he and died so the new idea was born.

But I agree, to service the canopy the higher the TIP the better, the rigging point, has to be stronger.

But interesting to note that it's being indoctrinated at some places.

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shaggs

I initially looked at the poll and immediately thought, and voted higher....always. But then looked at the diagram and thought...."what about blocking down". Then the TIP is below the rigging point.
But in general, always above, always false crotched.

Therrin

For a "single leadered tree like a pine" I've done both, but for a TD on it, I typically use double flips (or equivelant), and my rigging is usually above where I'm tied in. Since 75% of the time I use the lowering device at my anchor point, and control the lowering myself, this is more convenient for me to control it, and allows for less shockloading.

I'd agree that proper judging of the shockloading and such really factors in. I really tend not to push the scales with larger pieces, instead opting to go for smaller pieces that I don't have to worry about wiping out the rigging point and taking me with it.

I've no professional background for my next opinion, but I don't think that they should *require* you to do it one way or another, that they should instead teach you to use your brain, and adapt to a situation as is necessary at the time instead of using a cookie-cutter technique which doesn't allow for variables.

Ace Master

I natural crotch most of the time so I can change my lowering points around or when I run two lowering ropes at the same time..

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JohN Dee

Jebus christ you'd be cracking some SERIOUS speed up there.

I like to natural crotch too, so if I need to I can switch my highpoint with a heap of ease. But having said that if I can see in the tree that I'm not going to need a better high point I'll whack a cambium saver around the trunk to kill the extra friction when it isn't needed.

Shaggs, when I rig down my blocks my T.I.P's are above the rigging point - incase it wants to go sliding.

With the T.I.P it definately needs to be as high as possible to range through out the canopy, otherwise you may aswell just be up there with only a flipline...

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newguy18

since I natual crotch rig its hard to give an absolute.I've had my tie in above,below,and on the same limb[before the lowering towards the trunk of course.

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old schooler

bigshea13

If my load is so great that I think there may be a chance the section of tree my block is in will fail I put it above me. if it fails at least there is a chance it will break clean and Ill stay in the tree. if its below...human slingshot right into the dirt! and thats always fun

newguy18

Boy it seems like its one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't things.

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old schooler

TREEMONKEY

Cheers thats perfect.
i usually go higher with TIP even when tied into another main arm

ronnyb

I have a friend who broke out the leader he was tied into and also the rigging point. It failed at the crotch about 15 feet below him. He took a 40 foot fall, broke his back, legs, etc off of work for over a year.. I try to never rig out of the lead that I'm tied in to.

newguy18

I'm not condemning anyone but if you think for a minute a piece of wood is gonna break the leader or might cause the rigging to fail you should take a smaller piece,a little extra time is better than being out of work or being dead.

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old schooler

Bermy

See now, for blocking down, I was taught to have the rigging below the tie in.
The thought being that if the rigging slips a bit it won't slip into your tie in, also rigging won't be running across your lifelines or the block banging into them either.

I've done some 80' Norfolks, rigged down two of them, (the rest were chop and drop) but I was in a high lift. Watching the rigging, there is no way I'd be happy tied in below.

For that single leader scenario, its a case of eyes on the scene...which part of the tree will be better able to withstand the shock loads, common sense would say lower=thicker=stronger.
Any time you are limited to having the same leader for tie in and rigging, small sections and no/low shock loading should be the way to go.

I agree with those who say that students should be taught to THINK! Teaching is usually to 'best practice' standard but you have to be able to know when to adapt to unique situations, and to realize when things are not safe and might require a re-evaluation, more equipment, second opinion, come back another day!

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