Your definition of a tree hugger

TreeDimensional · 29th January 2008, 12:18 PM

Wow Done It, great pictures, I envy you. The reason I know I'm a tree hugger is that its the only way I can stay in my area on windy days. We all walk with a permanent lean in this part of the world.

Sean Freeman · 29th January 2008, 12:41 PM

Is that your back yard Doneit? I like it very much.

Ekka · 29th January 2008, 01:37 PM

Azrael,

People need places to live.

The recent housing/land spike is making affordability out of reach for many.

There's a few sides to this.

Go past a flat panned development 20 years later and you have a leafy suburb.

Some of those leafy suburbs were total replants and now have a strong tree community ... trees that aren't forest remnants declining but new trees and flower exotics that are more accustomed to the new environment.

Have a look at any nursery or Bunnings on the weekend, lots of people always hang around the plants at markets too.

I'm personally more for flat panning a new urban development that paying token value to a handful of trees that will decline or absorb vast quantities of land that could make another home.

Parks incorporating a larger forest community is better, rather than leaving hazardous poor taper fringe trees.

I believe Karing-Gai council once had such crazy protection. People wanted the remnant gums out but were declined so. Then a long came a ripper storm and the damage bill was huge ... word is many approvals went through and council helped with equipment and crane hire to clean the mess up. Saving a tree? Many times it's not, it's irrational back patting and not a sustainable long term viability.

Within urban developments parks will play a larger part, with the shrinking urban block large trees almost need an entire house block to be saved.

Your eyes bear true witness and time is the judge.

The tree is "saved" and now in John Citizens yard, what parameters for care and inspection are there for the future of the tree? Tree gets miss treated or mysteriously die, gets removed anyway.

In cases where it's an exotic existing tree on a redevelopment it gets more interesting. However those trees stand a better chance as they have grown in the urban environment. These are cases on their own merits unlike say dozing 50 hectares of scrub.

Sean Freeman · 29th January 2008, 01:50 PM

Eric believe it or not some of us actually do understand the consequences of failing to properly protect trees within urban subdivisions, and have absolutely no desire to expose anyone to the emense problems of having dying trees in their 1/4 acre block!

A big part of what I do and what I believe Azreal does is when given the opportunity to properly assess what is or is not possible to retain.

The issue for consulting Arborists seems to me to be that we are not called in to give advice and opinion at the concept stage of any subdivision...well very rarely...so when we are called in it is generally too late to try to protect the trees from damage by civils...its already happened.

Your faith in planners and Landscape Architects to put in appropriate tree species to give us leafy suburbs in 20yrs is touching but not supported by what I have seen in Qld since arriving here in 88'

.

Ekka · 29th January 2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Your faith in planners and Landscape Architects to put in appropriate tree species to give us leafy suburbs in 20yrs is touching but not supported by what I have seen in Qld since arriving here in 88'

.

Where did I mention I had faith in the above?

I did not, but I did mention that new vegetation does grow and replenish the flat panned landscape.

didn't you tell me the whole of Townsville is regrowth/replant? Same with Darwin I assume. I have pictures of Sunnybank B&W 1938 era, not a tree in sight, but now full of leaf. So within the definition, that being that new forests albeit random and chaos do replace old ... and I assume that as no-one planted the old it was a random chaos forest too.

So in that light, it is a screaming success.

The above image is Sunnybank Mains Rd McCullough Rd intersetion 1938 era.

This one is now from Google Earth.

polly · 29th January 2008, 03:15 PM

I Know ekka,

I recently found out Adealdie pre-euro settlement was open woodland forest ( large big old trees and grasses) and is now considered dense forest.

It seems ironic does'nt it.

Polly

Ekka · 29th January 2008, 03:32 PM

And the recent Casuarina's was great timing.

I do like trees, but seems there's no integration or foresight. Just chaos.

azrael · 29th January 2008, 03:41 PM

Mmmm...now let me see...I thinks Ive got some photos here....and I'm specific here abt my own area ie 10mins from my house. Drive same distance to the west and its pristine Escarpment.

One other background point first though...We are under state govt directive for more land release....its still really Greater Sydney here, remember...and within commuting distance. Mind you it's 4hrs out of your day to do so.
Down here, its attractive (cheaper) land prices that make it worthwhile for young marrieds to live here...(less debt).
BTW... if you commute its 4+8-10=12-14 hrs per day hrs that are not available for anything..least of all gardening... I did it for 3 years...it sucks...

Heres the pics-
This area is 4-5 years old....nice eh...NOT.
P4.jpg
Not to be smart but is in my own LGA ...and its a titchy subject for me.
Most of these Lots are not big enough to support a tree of any kind (shrubs maybe).. But truly...and I have seen it... one residence with the rotary clothes line out the front because there was no room anywhere else.

This is what its WAS like ... but this will be resumed soon too
P5.jpg
P7.jpg

Trapped in the middle is a this "Blackbutt Forest" which is largest area...south of Wollongong....it contains ROTAP's, and pockets of rainforest too.
B'Butt Forest.jpg
Every school holidays, the arsonists get into it....and at the edge it is subtly changed from forest into woodland with Themeda grassland, and Acacia scrub....(that happens in most of these areas that abut residential areas).

These areas (including the creeks) become kid magnets ....and with nails...a saw...a hammer... in one weekend they can do enough damage to a tree to kill it... One tree in a reserve behind me had kids swarming over it...putting a ladder up...oh..then needed to hack in toe holes..off comes the some bark ..geez...thats fun lets do some more...next thing...ringbarked...but this is not isolated...I speak with our Council guys who attest have to go in nearly every week and pull stuff out of trees...utes loads of stuff.

..and then there the pressure all this new residential development puts on natural systems..like creeks...Many of which feed in to the largest prawn hatchery lake in SOUTHERN NSW.
Lake Illawarra Authority

Oh....but man can play GOD and divert these creek to run "better" routes and change their hydrology to and turn them into engineered in-line filter systems with pondages for cleaning up storm-water where the bacteria and nitrogen and phosphates pour in from dog faeces and lawn fertilisers etc etc etc. and then ppl wonder why its not so nice to live near a creek with decaying algae and Parrots Feather and other aquatic weeds.
I'm out there cleaning up that mess......for free too (volunteering) I might add ..... because I care.
None of this is good planning...its Lego-land and its pigeon-holing..and IMO a pretty poor quality of life all up.
If you dont agree well so be it IMO.

azrael · 29th January 2008, 03:42 PM

Told ya I was PASSIONATE.....

windthrown · 29th January 2008, 05:02 PM

Well, this is the view from my office/home here... mostly Doug firs, but some madrone and maple and rad firs, as well as cedar and willow and ash and oaks along the stream there. This was taken last fall, which was a good one here.

azrael · 29th January 2008, 05:11 PM

NOW THATS NICE.....Any good trout-fishin round there ...how close ya nearest neighbours....ya married sonny???

azrael · 29th January 2008, 05:15 PM

Kidding ...really truly....just kidding

windthrown · 29th January 2008, 05:44 PM

We have 100+ acres here. Been living here with my girlfriend for 4 years now. Not married, nope. Don't have or want kids, and we are not religious people. So no need... Most of what you see in the photo, barn, pastures, orchard and stream is all on this property. That is about 20 acres. 5 acres on the mountain across the road and in the lower right of the photo is also ours. Needs thinning. All conifers. What you don's see is another 80 acres in trees, pastures and whatnot on the other sides of the house. Nearest neighbor is about 1/4 mile away, past the barn there. You can see some of her house above the horse trailer, and her shed above the barn.

The trees in color along the stream here are in a protected Coho Salmon habitat creek. I have never seen anything big in there, but the dogs have eaten salmon out of there and gotten salmon poisoning, so they are in there. We are all of 10 miles from the lower Umpqua River though, and the fishing on that river is some of the best in the world. Steelhead, salmon, and trout. Trout is boring fish to me, I prefer salmon or steelhead. The salmon here are Coho (AKA: silver) and Chinook (AKA: king). Some of the best.

philodendron · 29th January 2008, 06:17 PM

I think that 99% of requests for tree reports are from people who want justification for removing a tree.
In the leafy North Shore of Sydney people move here for the forested environment, then realise that those beautiful blue gums etc fill their pool and gutters with leaves, so they want them removed. Often I come across houses where a well-meaning architect and client have built decks around existing bushland trees which then have the temerity to get bigger and lift the deck and/or foundations. Big/expensive job to remove. Probably the tree should have gone at the outset. Even though the sentiment was good, the reality is that in practical terms it doesn't work.
Yet I have seen big Angophoras left near new houses and still looking 100% 10 years later - there are always exceptions to expectations!

Unfortunately, if an area is zoned for housing, the sad fact is ,Ekka is right, unless we leave a full block per mature tree, which I think we should, and build higher to fit in the same no. of people, the alternative is to take down all the trees which can be predicted will cause problems in the future. Which leaves you with desolate suburbs for many years, loss of habitat trees and a bunch of upcoming problem trees because people make poor selections when planting their new property and don't get good advice either.

Tree hugging as a principle is based on a good sentiment, but the reality is often not that simple and sometimes trees have to go to accommodate the needs of those poxy little two-legged critters that are over-running the planet.
To be continued......
Happy days!

azrael · 29th January 2008, 06:59 PM

Good post Philodendron
...I know this happening....and it doesnt make me happy....we ARE The Future Eaters.
(Ref to Book of the same title byTim Flannery 1994...ISBN 9 780730 104872)

& Windthrown .... Salmon

I might be a

...but Im no fish-kisser...straight to the pan I rekon.

Trout.jpg

Mmmmmm trout

29th January 2008, 12:18 PM	#26 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Wow Done It, great pictures, I envy you. The reason I know I'm a tree hugger is that its the only way I can stay in my area on windy days. We all walk with a permanent lean in this part of the world.

29th January 2008, 12:41 PM	#27 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Is that your back yard Doneit? I like it very much. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

29th January 2008, 01:37 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Azrael, People need places to live. The recent housing/land spike is making affordability out of reach for many. There's a few sides to this. Go past a flat panned development 20 years later and you have a leafy suburb. Some of those leafy suburbs were total replants and now have a strong tree community ... trees that aren't forest remnants declining but new trees and flower exotics that are more accustomed to the new environment. Have a look at any nursery or Bunnings on the weekend, lots of people always hang around the plants at markets too. I'm personally more for flat panning a new urban development that paying token value to a handful of trees that will decline or absorb vast quantities of land that could make another home. Parks incorporating a larger forest community is better, rather than leaving hazardous poor taper fringe trees. I believe Karing-Gai council once had such crazy protection. People wanted the remnant gums out but were declined so. Then a long came a ripper storm and the damage bill was huge ... word is many approvals went through and council helped with equipment and crane hire to clean the mess up. Saving a tree? Many times it's not, it's irrational back patting and not a sustainable long term viability. Within urban developments parks will play a larger part, with the shrinking urban block large trees almost need an entire house block to be saved. Your eyes bear true witness and time is the judge. The tree is "saved" and now in John Citizens yard, what parameters for care and inspection are there for the future of the tree? Tree gets miss treated or mysteriously die, gets removed anyway. In cases where it's an exotic existing tree on a redevelopment it gets more interesting. However those trees stand a better chance as they have grown in the urban environment. These are cases on their own merits unlike say dozing 50 hectares of scrub. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

29th January 2008, 01:50 PM	#29 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Eric believe it or not some of us actually do understand the consequences of failing to properly protect trees within urban subdivisions, and have absolutely no desire to expose anyone to the emense problems of having dying trees in their 1/4 acre block! A big part of what I do and what I believe Azreal does is when given the opportunity to properly assess what is or is not possible to retain. The issue for consulting Arborists seems to me to be that we are not called in to give advice and opinion at the concept stage of any subdivision...well very rarely...so when we are called in it is generally too late to try to protect the trees from damage by civils...its already happened. Your faith in planners and Landscape Architects to put in appropriate tree species to give us leafy suburbs in 20yrs is touching but not supported by what I have seen in Qld since arriving here in 88' . __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

29th January 2008, 03:15 PM	#31 (permalink)
polly former member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide Hills Posts: 74	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger I Know ekka, I recently found out Adealdie pre-euro settlement was open woodland forest ( large big old trees and grasses) and is now considered dense forest. It seems ironic does'nt it. Polly

29th January 2008, 03:32 PM	#32 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger And the recent Casuarina's was great timing. I do like trees, but seems there's no integration or foresight. Just chaos. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

29th January 2008, 03:41 PM	#33 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Mmmm...now let me see...I thinks Ive got some photos here....and I'm specific here abt my own area ie 10mins from my house. Drive same distance to the west and its pristine Escarpment. One other background point first though...We are under state govt directive for more land release....its still really Greater Sydney here, remember...and within commuting distance. Mind you it's 4hrs out of your day to do so. Down here, its attractive (cheaper) land prices that make it worthwhile for young marrieds to live here...(less debt). BTW... if you commute its 4+8-10=12-14 hrs per day hrs that are not available for anything..least of all gardening... I did it for 3 years...it sucks... Heres the pics- This area is 4-5 years old....nice eh...NOT. P4.jpg Not to be smart but is in my own LGA ...and its a titchy subject for me. Most of these Lots are not big enough to support a tree of any kind (shrubs maybe).. But truly...and I have seen it... one residence with the rotary clothes line out the front because there was no room anywhere else. This is what its WAS like ... but this will be resumed soon too P5.jpg P7.jpg Trapped in the middle is a this "Blackbutt Forest" which is largest area...south of Wollongong....it contains ROTAP's, and pockets of rainforest too. B'Butt Forest.jpg Every school holidays, the arsonists get into it....and at the edge it is subtly changed from forest into woodland with Themeda grassland, and Acacia scrub....(that happens in most of these areas that abut residential areas). These areas (including the creeks) become kid magnets ....and with nails...a saw...a hammer... in one weekend they can do enough damage to a tree to kill it... One tree in a reserve behind me had kids swarming over it...putting a ladder up...oh..then needed to hack in toe holes..off comes the some bark ..geez...thats fun lets do some more...next thing...ringbarked...but this is not isolated...I speak with our Council guys who attest have to go in nearly every week and pull stuff out of trees...utes loads of stuff. ..and then there the pressure all this new residential development puts on natural systems..like creeks...Many of which feed in to the largest prawn hatchery lake in SOUTHERN NSW. Lake Illawarra Authority Oh....but man can play GOD and divert these creek to run "better" routes and change their hydrology to and turn them into engineered in-line filter systems with pondages for cleaning up storm-water where the bacteria and nitrogen and phosphates pour in from dog faeces and lawn fertilisers etc etc etc. and then ppl wonder why its not so nice to live near a creek with decaying algae and Parrots Feather and other aquatic weeds. I'm out there cleaning up that mess......for free too (volunteering) I might add ..... because I care. None of this is good planning...its Lego-land and its pigeon-holing..and IMO a pretty poor quality of life all up. If you dont agree well so be it IMO. Last edited by azrael : 29th January 2008 at 03:45 PM. Reason: missed word

29th January 2008, 03:42 PM	#34 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Told ya I was PASSIONATE.....

29th January 2008, 05:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger NOW THATS NICE.....Any good trout-fishin round there ...how close ya nearest neighbours....ya married sonny???

29th January 2008, 05:15 PM	#37 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Kidding ...really truly....just kidding

29th January 2008, 05:44 PM	#38 (permalink)
windthrown Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 127	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger We have 100+ acres here. Been living here with my girlfriend for 4 years now. Not married, nope. Don't have or want kids, and we are not religious people. So no need... Most of what you see in the photo, barn, pastures, orchard and stream is all on this property. That is about 20 acres. 5 acres on the mountain across the road and in the lower right of the photo is also ours. Needs thinning. All conifers. What you don's see is another 80 acres in trees, pastures and whatnot on the other sides of the house. Nearest neighbor is about 1/4 mile away, past the barn there. You can see some of her house above the horse trailer, and her shed above the barn. The trees in color along the stream here are in a protected Coho Salmon habitat creek. I have never seen anything big in there, but the dogs have eaten salmon out of there and gotten salmon poisoning, so they are in there. We are all of 10 miles from the lower Umpqua River though, and the fishing on that river is some of the best in the world. Steelhead, salmon, and trout. Trout is boring fish to me, I prefer salmon or steelhead. The salmon here are Coho (AKA: silver) and Chinook (AKA: king). Some of the best. __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

29th January 2008, 06:17 PM	#39 (permalink)
philodendron Sappling Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 8	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger I think that 99% of requests for tree reports are from people who want justification for removing a tree. In the leafy North Shore of Sydney people move here for the forested environment, then realise that those beautiful blue gums etc fill their pool and gutters with leaves, so they want them removed. Often I come across houses where a well-meaning architect and client have built decks around existing bushland trees which then have the temerity to get bigger and lift the deck and/or foundations. Big/expensive job to remove. Probably the tree should have gone at the outset. Even though the sentiment was good, the reality is that in practical terms it doesn't work. Yet I have seen big Angophoras left near new houses and still looking 100% 10 years later - there are always exceptions to expectations! Unfortunately, if an area is zoned for housing, the sad fact is ,Ekka is right, unless we leave a full block per mature tree, which I think we should, and build higher to fit in the same no. of people, the alternative is to take down all the trees which can be predicted will cause problems in the future. Which leaves you with desolate suburbs for many years, loss of habitat trees and a bunch of upcoming problem trees because people make poor selections when planting their new property and don't get good advice either. Tree hugging as a principle is based on a good sentiment, but the reality is often not that simple and sometimes trees have to go to accommodate the needs of those poxy little two-legged critters that are over-running the planet. To be continued...... Happy days!

29th January 2008, 06:59 PM	#40 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: Your definition of a tree hugger Good post Philodendron ...I know this happening....and it doesnt make me happy....we ARE The Future Eaters. (Ref to Book of the same title byTim Flannery 1994...ISBN 9 780730 104872) & Windthrown .... Salmon I might be a ...but Im no fish-kisser...straight to the pan I rekon. Trout.jpg Mmmmmm trout

29th January 2008, 09:21 PM	#41 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire