Unregistered, whatcha workin on right now?

newguy18 · 5th December 2008, 03:00 PM

Cool,I am definatly gonna invest in one.
Decay Detection
argus electronic GmbH - PICUS Sonic Tomograph

Garry Brockley · 5th December 2008, 04:27 PM

I would love one but at £10,995.00 i think i will give it a miss

Therrin · 5th December 2008, 06:00 PM

Why go 2D, when you can go 3D????

Willkommen bei Adobe GoLive 6

WOOHOO!!!

tgi007 · 5th December 2008, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Hey what's up? How's work goin? Let us know what you've been up to lately. Has work been good/bad? Heavy or slow? Is there a big project going right now or any other ones you've completed and haven't mentioned yet?

Lets hear it.

thank you for asking
i have a 150 ft tree that i would be contemplating on cutting down, may b e looking @ using a crane to assist as this is a huge one.
any other suggestions.

Eric Frei · 5th December 2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tgi007

any other suggestions.

Sure how about some pictures?!

treevet · 5th December 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galbee

I would love one but at £10,995.00 i think i will give it a miss

How much is that U.S. Galbee? Not that I would remotely consider buying one. Maybe people that are to devote an entire business to this will buy a system and be subcontracted or maybe they will be rented out like the Resistograph. I am sure we will see seminars soon.

willem · 6th December 2008, 11:17 AM

The image is a software picture of soundwave measurments through the wood.
Good wood gives the colour brown and blue/white areas is decay or cavities.Green and purple are in between. The machine is called a PICUS

willem · 6th December 2008, 11:25 AM

The company I work for already has this machine for a long time. When they thought of buying it people were concerned about the price but if you see the amount of work we have for it, it was not a bad investment.
When you work with trees proffesional you should own or have acces to one of these. The work will come by itself.

treeseer · 6th December 2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willem

When you work with trees proffesional you should own or have acces to one of these. The work will come by itself.

They are very useful. Picus was presented in Philadelphia and Asheville and St. Louis this year. Schwarze's Diagnosis book is hard on Resistograph as rot-spreader, so that $3k tool is not looking that good compared to the $15k Picus.

treevet · 6th December 2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

They are very useful. Picus was presented in Philadelphia and Asheville and St. Louis this year. Schwarze's Diagnosis book is hard on Resistograph as rot-spreader, so that $3k tool is not looking that good compared to the $15k Picus.

It would appear to be the best tool but not the end of the line. I assume it measures decay radially so it would have be used time and again up a stem with an extensive cavity (like in a lightning struck oak I recently looked at, it would have to be reused a hundred or so times up 50 feet to be thorough). Also it detects decay and the next job is to quantify the risk of failure and PROJECT the future decomposition. Many variables that give room for improvement.

Jeff Darby · 6th December 2008, 01:49 PM

A lot of the technical stuff we are seeing are not "new" in a sence, they are being altered somwhat and re introduced into treework. Take for instance, ultrasounding for babies still in the womb, It's the same tech gear thay use to find subs in the ocean...etc...etc...you know l was watching jurasic park for the 2mill time the over day...l have kids...and the way they were finding the rapter bones could be used to plot the root system for tree's that are going to transplanted or for working out the CRZ you just have to recognise the potential.

Then convert it to work in our industry with in depth instructions.

JayD

treevet · 6th December 2008, 02:24 PM

damn good analogies JayD

Eric Frei · 6th December 2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Schwarze's Diagnosis book is hard on Resistograph as rot-spreader, so that $3k tool is not looking that good compared to the $15k Picus.

I wonder if he read this then?

The Effects of Excessive Drilling on Wood Decay in Trees by Mattheck and Weber

Sean Freeman · 6th December 2008, 07:55 PM

I'm absolutely certain he has read it Eric...

Sean Freeman · 6th December 2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

The results showing that decay fungi can spread rapidly via drilling wounds into formerly sound wood strongly contradict observations made by Weber and Mattheck (2005) who assessed the effects of excessive drilling inot the stem of four trees of three species (Populus nigra, Acer pseudoplatanus and Quercus robur) with internal decay. From their studies they concluded that in no case had any decay entered the drilling channels, although their conclusions are not valid because Koch's postulates were not verified........As Weber and Mattheck (2005) did not even attempt to isolate and identify the fungi that were causing decay in the trees they drilled into, nor establish whetther the causal decay fungi actually entered the drilling channels or not (by isolation, identification and incompatability tests in pure culture) their conclusions are not only misleading for the arborist, but also scientifically invalid

Schwarze 2008

willem · 6th December 2008, 11:42 PM

I will explain the way we work. Local goverments ask us to visual inspect their trees (VTA). When all trees in one area are inspected, you get the results in.
Some of the trees are marked as a tree that's need to be investigated further.At this point the PICUS comes in. Trees are inspected with PICUS.If the image is inconclusive or you want a second opion (for example when it is a big monumental tree that shows up by picus as bad) we use the resitograph.
The PICUS is another tool to use for an arborist. But he always has to rely on his own experience combined with tools such as PICUS

treeseer · 7th December 2008, 02:41 AM

Looking more closely than the others, and telling it like it is.

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 04:06 PM

I just bust out the ole Ryobi cordless.

I personally think the resistograph is the most accurate tool today.

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Quote:

The results showing that decay fungi can spread rapidly via drilling wounds into formerly sound wood strongly contradict observations made by Weber and Mattheck (2005) who assessed the effects of excessive drilling inot the stem of four trees of three species (Populus nigra, Acer pseudoplatanus and Quercus robur) with internal decay. From their studies they concluded that in no case had any decay entered the drilling channels, although their conclusions are not valid because Koch's postulates were not verified........As Weber and Mattheck (2005) did not even attempt to isolate and identify the fungi that were causing decay in the trees they drilled into, nor establish whetther the causal decay fungi actually entered the drilling channels or not (by isolation, identification and incompatability tests in pure culture) their conclusions are not only misleading for the arborist, but also scientifically invalid

Schwarze 2008

Here in lies the problem when people just believe and not interrogate the information.

It would be ridiculous to say that drilling into a pocket of decay would not result in some of that decay spreading, most would agree I'm sure.

However look at what you have quoted from Schwarze above.

Yet in that document toward the end it states.

Quote:

Now, the effects of drilling presented shall be evaluated with regard to their hazard potential. The test trees were vital both prior to as well as 8 – 10 years after the first drillings. Drilling did not cause any noticeable loss of vitality of the trees. The reduced integrity and breaking strength of the test trees with an inner rot resulted only from this inner rot. The rot cones that had been extended locally and temporarily by drilling hardly contributed to the general decrease in integrity and breaking strength. It may therefore be concluded that the drilling techniques that are used in a limited and non-excessive manner in practice are not hazardous to the tree. As the increment borer had a larger diameter than the RESI drilling needle, the former caused accordingly
larger discolorations in the test trees. However, this did not make it more or less hazardous.

I think Schwarze is pushing his own agendas and wrote something really dumb like this.

Quote:

From their studies they concluded that in no case had any decay entered the drilling channels

Seems a blatant lie to me when in fact they acknlowledged the matter

Quote:

The rot cones that had been extended locally and temporarily by drilling

Ole Schwarze's credibility just took a dive in my mind mate.

Sean Freeman · 7th December 2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Ole Schwarze's credibility just took a dive in my mind mate.

Ah well i guess he'll just have to deal with that then eh?

Quote:

I think Schwarze is pushing his own agendas and wrote something really dumb like this

Perhaps for me his "agenda" is the importance of understanding the relationship between the specific fungi and the specific tree....if there is no understanding of what is going on at the microscopic level then there is little to be gained from the statements and conclusions made by Weber and Mattheck.

Over simplification is a major problem when trying to understand the host/pathogen relationship

Schwarze needs no defence from me, the quality of his methodology and the precise attention to detail speaks volumes for his credibility.

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 04:50 PM

Certainly didn't do his homework when writing on his peers did he?

I've emailed Mattheck on his comments, let the professors deal with each other.

Sean Freeman · 7th December 2008, 04:56 PM

Ha ha do you really think that Mattheck hasn't been bombarded over this and many other serious problems raised by peer reviews of his work????

At least he won't be able to claim that his english does not permit frank and open debate...a problem others have encountered when questioning Claus

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 05:06 PM

So you think it's funny Schwartz prints lies, misreads a colleagues paper and some-one tries to do the right thing ... interesting.

Sean Freeman · 7th December 2008, 05:13 PM

I don't think they are lies so yes its funny

AnnetteR · 7th December 2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Hey what's up? How's work goin? Let us know what you've been up to lately. Has work been good/bad? Heavy or slow? Is there a big project going right now or any other ones you've completed and haven't mentioned yet?

Lets hear it.

No. Im not working, I broke my leg so I am painting. Up to about 14 paintings now. My mother is here with me helping me mind the foster children while my leg mends and I am going insane. Not long now. Still trying to work out what to do with this place. I have added some new accomodation so I am thinking of renting out some rooms so I can have some money to spend on the farm. I want to buy a tractor, I have a confession to make. I HAVE NEVER USED A CHAIN SAW. Oh god I'm glad I got that out! Now I feel much better. I will use anything else but I'm afraid of the chain saw. May be I could practice on the huge cane toad that just hopped in the door, hm stick with the golf clubs. It is about to bucket down, I have about a foot of water in the new dam, I am concidering getting my crutches and going hiking. It has be buggered where the water goes, I mean when I first moved here it went into the house so I fixed that, now it runs down the hill like it is supposed to but just before it gets to the dam it DISAPEARS, its magic. Well I'm going to fiind a big plastic bag to put me head, I mean leg in and go watch the water. I do talk a lot of rubbish sometimes, sorry, I AM in the bush surrounded by CHILDREN who only want to talk about War Hammer and Nick Junior.

Have a great day Annette R

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

I don't think they are lies so yes its funny

Even with the evidence flat infront of your nose you cant see it.

treeseer · 7th December 2008, 09:30 PM

What I'm NOT working on is interrogating information only long enough to find something to fight about.

Bloody boring.

Eric Frei · 7th December 2008, 09:53 PM

Fight about or point out.

To point out then deny it I think means the fights within a persons own brain.

Seems both of you support Schwartz's printed lies then.

And to suggest then that the best tool not be used based on that is stupid frankly. Do you not consider the Resistograph the most accurate tool to date?

treeseer · 8th December 2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Do you not consider the Resistograph the most accurate tool to date?

No, I've used it enough to see its weaknesses, and I've seen the tomograph's weaknesses too. Your question is too vague to be answerable-though I could argue that the yardstick is the most accurate. I too am troubled by Schwarze's haste to

judge others, as I am yours. Hard to talk when the other spouts "lies" and "stupid" so easily.

When I get to be as smart as you think you are I may try again.

willem · 8th December 2008, 01:33 AM

Sience is all about believing, didn't we all believe at one time the earth was flat. Progress in sience is a long and hard struggle. Listen and read as much as possible then form an opion. But always keep on listing and don't be afraid to change you ideas if better ones come along. Time has proven that sticking to old ideas is hopeless
The tomograph is a machine that's accurate and non-invasive. Furthermore it has potential. This machine and it's software will be more advanced every year and the resisto will not develop anymore. You will say it doesn't have to change because it's working fine. But we can say the same about the horse and carriage. That's also still working fine but the majority of people chose for the new development the automobile.

5th December 2008, 03:00 PM	#61
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: newguy18, whatcha workin on right now? Cool,I am definatly gonna invest in one. Decay Detection argus electronic GmbH - PICUS Sonic Tomograph __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

5th December 2008, 04:27 PM	#62
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,649	Re: Galbee, whatcha workin on right now? I would love one but at £10,995.00 i think i will give it a miss __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

5th December 2008, 06:00 PM	#63
Therrin Former Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bakersfield, Ca Posts: 2,512	Re: Therrin, whatcha workin on right now? Why go 2D, when you can go 3D???? Willkommen bei Adobe GoLive 6 WOOHOO!!!

6th December 2008, 11:17 AM	#67
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: willem, whatcha workin on right now? The image is a software picture of soundwave measurments through the wood. Good wood gives the colour brown and blue/white areas is decay or cavities.Green and purple are in between. The machine is called a PICUS

6th December 2008, 11:25 AM	#68
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: willem, whatcha workin on right now? The company I work for already has this machine for a long time. When they thought of buying it people were concerned about the price but if you see the amount of work we have for it, it was not a bad investment. When you work with trees proffesional you should own or have acces to one of these. The work will come by itself.

6th December 2008, 01:49 PM	#71
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,031	Re: JayD, whatcha workin on right now? A lot of the technical stuff we are seeing are not "new" in a sence, they are being altered somwhat and re introduced into treework. Take for instance, ultrasounding for babies still in the womb, It's the same tech gear thay use to find subs in the ocean...etc...etc...you know l was watching jurasic park for the 2mill time the over day...l have kids...and the way they were finding the rapter bones could be used to plot the root system for tree's that are going to transplanted or for working out the CRZ you just have to recognise the potential. Then convert it to work in our industry with in depth instructions. JayD __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

6th December 2008, 02:24 PM	#72
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: treevet, whatcha workin on right now? damn good analogies JayD

6th December 2008, 07:55 PM	#74
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Sean Freeman, whatcha workin on right now? I'm absolutely certain he has read it Eric...

6th December 2008, 11:42 PM	#76
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: willem, whatcha workin on right now? I will explain the way we work. Local goverments ask us to visual inspect their trees (VTA). When all trees in one area are inspected, you get the results in. Some of the trees are marked as a tree that's need to be investigated further.At this point the PICUS comes in. Trees are inspected with PICUS.If the image is inconclusive or you want a second opion (for example when it is a big monumental tree that shows up by picus as bad) we use the resitograph. The PICUS is another tool to use for an arborist. But he always has to rely on his own experience combined with tools such as PICUS

7th December 2008, 02:41 AM	#77
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 753	Re: treeseer, whatcha workin on right now? Looking more closely than the others, and telling it like it is.

7th December 2008, 04:06 PM	#78
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Ekka, whatcha workin on right now? I just bust out the ole Ryobi cordless. I personally think the resistograph is the most accurate tool today. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

7th December 2008, 04:50 PM	#81
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Ekka, whatcha workin on right now? Certainly didn't do his homework when writing on his peers did he? I've emailed Mattheck on his comments, let the professors deal with each other. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

7th December 2008, 04:56 PM	#82
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Sean Freeman, whatcha workin on right now? Ha ha do you really think that Mattheck hasn't been bombarded over this and many other serious problems raised by peer reviews of his work???? At least he won't be able to claim that his english does not permit frank and open debate...a problem others have encountered when questioning Claus

7th December 2008, 05:06 PM	#83
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Ekka, whatcha workin on right now? So you think it's funny Schwartz prints lies, misreads a colleagues paper and some-one tries to do the right thing ... interesting. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

7th December 2008, 05:13 PM	#84
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Sean Freeman, whatcha workin on right now? I don't think they are lies so yes its funny

7th December 2008, 09:30 PM	#87
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 753	Re: treeseer, whatcha workin on right now? What I'm NOT working on is interrogating information only long enough to find something to fight about. Bloody boring.

7th December 2008, 09:53 PM	#88
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Ekka, whatcha workin on right now? Fight about or point out. To point out then deny it I think means the fights within a persons own brain. Seems both of you support Schwartz's printed lies then. And to suggest then that the best tool not be used based on that is stupid frankly. Do you not consider the Resistograph the most accurate tool to date? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

8th December 2008, 01:33 AM	#90
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: willem, whatcha workin on right now? Sience is all about believing, didn't we all believe at one time the earth was flat. Progress in sience is a long and hard struggle. Listen and read as much as possible then form an opion. But always keep on listing and don't be afraid to change you ideas if better ones come along. Time has proven that sticking to old ideas is hopeless The tomograph is a machine that's accurate and non-invasive. Furthermore it has potential. This machine and it's software will be more advanced every year and the resisto will not develop anymore. You will say it doesn't have to change because it's working fine. But we can say the same about the horse and carriage. That's also still working fine but the majority of people chose for the new development the automobile.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode