Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb

Ekka · 15th February 2007, 09:14 PM

You'll often hear me say ... "everyone is an expert in our field."

You know, the home-owner tells you what is right and where to cut, and of course they used to cut trees when they were younger.

But that's nothing, a bigger danger lurks, and with high speed internet some of these "educators" are influencing many in profound ways.

I recently had brought to my attention a thread running elsewhere where the site owner started a thread called

"How to stand up a limb"

referring to craning operations on limbs that aren't vertical.

Below is the series of pics taken and displayed boldy in public full frontal view of how to go about it.

Now this is how I saw it... note the red lines.

Then later in the thread a picture of blocking down.

Now people see this and think it's OK.

Are they qualified let alone certified trainers? Sure you may do things in your day to day work that are questionable but you don't actually make yourself out to be an authority on the subject and offer a "how to" guide.

Would the suitably qualified and experienced crane workers care to elaborate on what they do so the industry is a little wiser.

yooper · 17th February 2007, 10:04 PM

gee ekka here in the U.S. up north foot ball star they had Breat Fearve (guarter back grean bay packer,,old sucks anyway) sawen wood in shorts, and tennys, big smile on his face un real!!! in an ad on tv for all to see!
showed your post to your my wife(also known as my groundgirl)(although we dont do crain work) and hell she even picked it out pretty quick! befor she seen arrows! i quess its not rocket science!
I have always been a stickler about chain saw handling and how to hold the saw just because from working in the logging industry i have seen some bad chain saw accedents in the middle of the woods,not only on other people but but damm near cut my foot off also!
got a tree magizine today and they asked about a safty watch and it was there way of alerting us to safty violations in there mag.!!!!so be it they had a photo of somone! no helmet i see for now
ok what do say about this advisertisment? i was always taught from cutting timber in the woods to always have your thumb wraped around the saw handle. trust me when ya see your buddys forhead gouged in half in the middle of nowhere its to late to remind him to hold on tighter expecialy when you are the only one to go home from work that day!!
Please people we have them thumbs for one reason so hold on and go home!
AM I RIGHT? HERE IS A PATIAL PHOTO FROM THE AD AND DO TELL ME IF IM WRONG or PERHAPS YA CAN ALL HANG ON ALOT TIGHTER. pg 28
hold on.JPG

jim1nz · 17th February 2007, 11:35 PM

Firstly i want to start off by saying the danger with using cranes in tree work is underrated. It seems climbers are pretty casual with cranes but its crucial to keep your wits about you.

With those photos, as Ekka pointed out its evident the cuts made were not judged correctly and there was only one rope point. Something positive was the climbers position was good.

The cut that Ekka has highlighted is a mistake that shouldn't be made. Ways of avoiding this is;

Good communication between the climber and an EXPERIANCED dogman to tell the climber whats going on is very important.

Using correct crane cuts, as a climber working with cranes you should know where your bar tip is and know whats required for each cut.

Having a second roping point while cutting is standard practice and shouldn't need to be elaborated on, how long does it seriously take to put your lanyard on...

A few extra points i would like to point out while I'm on the crane topic;

Don't be afraid to use cradle systems when taking horizontal branches, there is no need to "stand up limbs" with every cut!

To take the pressure of you as a climber have a couple of extra slings so after the crane has removed the last piece of wood out safely you are able to set up the next lift before the hook arrives.

Having a bigger bar is not always the best solution, i always would recommend using a rear handled saw with plenty of power. You have more control of the saw and cuts are made smoothly, quickly with less effort than the likes of a top handle saw with no chance of missing wood that needed to be cut.

DONT tie into the hook while its under load!

The last and most important thing i want to say now is also the hardest thing to do. Know whats going to happen BEFORE it happens. Know where and what that piece is going to do so you are well out of harms way. It sounds silly but i always think about whats going to happen if.... and have contingency plans worked out so in case of a worst case scenario you able to deal with it safely, its kind of like risk management but a constant updated one.

Ekka · 18th February 2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yooper

here in the U.S. up north foot ball star they had Breat Fearve (guarter back grean bay packer,,old sucks anyway) sawen wood in shorts, and tennys, big smile on his face un real!!! in an ad on tv for all to see!

sort of reminds me of the Malborough Man, they used to advertise cigs the same way.

jim1nz · 18th February 2007, 01:48 AM

As seen in the last pic:

I think its needless to say that one handed straight finish cut through the wood then push off with the other hand as the saw becomes jammed is a disgrace.

One day the saw will bite...

jim1nz · 18th February 2007, 02:25 AM

My thoughts on the lifting method if it had to be done...

Firstly ensure the boom tip is directly over top of load.

When setting up branch crane lifts if its not necessary to tip tie and lift then dont do it. Most cranes have two chains off the main hoist hook which can be used to cradle the branch. Make sure to set the cradle evenly buy taking raps on the branch then securing the hook normally.

Always snig the hooks on the opposite side of the cradle/load so the chain is never on the open side of the hook.

Vertical branches that are able to be tip tied are secured high so the piece is unable to flip which will undoubtedly cause the climber serious injury's. Attach two chains to the piece, one either side of one another thus spreading load on the piece and on both chains. Step cuts are the preferred cut. Once the piece is secured and the climber is in position, the climber signals to the dog-man to take the weight of the piece so the cuts are able to be made with out the saw becoming jammed.

ALWAYS make sure the hoist line is vertical or slightly away from where you are positioned so the piece being lifted is unable to swing or if it does its a small amount and away from the climber.

If a piece is stuck DONT let the crane driver try and slew and create an angle where the piece will swing once free, think ahead so this does not happen...

NOTE: With these posts i am not even scratching the surface of what a climber needs to know when dealing with cranes in tree work.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PROFESSIONAL FORMAL TRAINING IS REQUIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone wants professional training in New Zealand just ask me and i can organise things with the best arboricultural training institute in NZ, the Waikato Institute of Technology. A level 6 specialist crane and helicopter course is available.

Ekka · 18th February 2007, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim1nz

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PROFESSIONAL FORMAL TRAINING IS REQUIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone wants professional training in New Zealand just ask me and i can organise things with the best arboricultural training institute in NZ, the Waikato Institute of Technology. A level 6 specialist crane and helicopter course is available.

Thank you Jim.

And a credit to NZ for having such a course, I wonder if there's any other places that offer anything like that?

Billybong · 18th February 2007, 03:49 PM

I'll break this down.

Firstly single attachment point. There are times when you need to keep your lines as far away from the cut as possible, this appears to be one.
Straight through cutting. On crane dismantles this is often the best way to remove a section, let the fibres of the wood tear naturally dictating pace of movement/hinging.
one handing a saw. I seem to remember seeing plenty of vids with you ( Ekka) doing the same!!

My point is why not discus why said practices are being used not just dismiss them without a thought. I think you are putting your personal crap infront of a balanced discussion.

Notahacker · 18th February 2007, 07:31 PM

Yes, a shallow notch (or scarf as you Aussies say) on the top side of the limb woud have been prefered.

Then the undercut could be made.

Then after the hinge is established the arborist could clip his saw to his saddle and prepare for a sudden escape while the limb is being lifted.

The crane operator could then gently lift the limb.

Key: If the notch was just right, then the whole "pick" would be smooth without the sawyer having to get the saw out again to cut once again to release the limb.

Thanks Eric for keeping that photo anonymous; it was a professional decision.

Ekka · 18th February 2007, 08:47 PM

Quote: