Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb

Ekka · 1st November 2007, 02:46 PM

Having had a look through Reg's pics

RC1 pics

I had to pull this one off and chat about it.

Reg, did the piece stay flat? And did it do so by you guessing the mid weight point?

How many attachment points did that piece have?
I like the cut, notice the snap cut. All seems pretty smooth and controlled to me.

Sean Freeman · 1st November 2007, 08:48 PM

Great photo and great pick Reg, i can just imagine the big grin on your face as the crane lifts that one away.......like the preverbial Cheshire Arborist

Ekka · 1st November 2007, 09:03 PM

Both Reg and Allmark's crane work videos are primo.

RC1 · 1st November 2007, 11:54 PM

Thanks. It had two chains attached at the same point. It came off as smooth as it appears in the photo. It is the second lift in this video:

Horse Chestnut felling with crane

I assure you, single-point ballancing is easier than you might think.

Some people like snap cuts, some don't. Judging the cut and crane tension takes practice but the benefit is being able to move away before the lift

Ekka · 2nd November 2007, 01:51 AM

Yeah that's a great video, big tree it was.

redstree · 5th November 2007, 02:59 PM

Trying to get back on track. As someone who has both been the climber working with a crane and the crane operator working with a climber all I can say is communication between the crane operator and the climber is extremely important.

Having a crane operator who is familiar with tree removals is also important. We were lucky to have our own crane, granted it wasn't the largest, just 85'(25m) and 5 tons(4.5 metric tons) but it did an awful lot of work during it's life time. When we needed a larger crane we rented one, with an operator. Fortunately we were lucky to have a few crane operators experienced in tree work in our area.

When everything is going according to plan it is just like a beautiful dance with the crane operator and climber each knowing what the other is going to do and anticipating the others moves. This sort of dance starts on the ground before the job starts with a discussion about the order in which things will be done.

As has been pointed out before, how the choker/sling is placed determines what will happen as the crane takes a strain. The climber must understand this as it is his butt on the line if he does it wrong.

As a crane operator I would always double check the setting of the choker to be sure that the climber was making his cut so that the cut and choker placement would work in concert to open the cut as a strain was taken. We would often stand up a horizontal limb as it was being cut.

This was done by starting with a pie cut on the top of the limb. Frequently we would employ a tag line tied above the cut to help control the butt end. As the back cut was made the climber would signal when to start lifting. A slow lift was always used to just keep the cut open until a normal hinge was all that was left. Then the crane would lift the piece vertical, just like felling a tree, the hinge would hold the butt until it was vertical. At this point the crane would be directly over the piece, or slightly away from the climber, then the climber would cut the hinge if it had not seperated. The crane should never be used to break the hinge.

Even the ripped piece, clearly visable in the photos, should not have happened. The climber should have finished the cut so the crane only had to lift the piece and not have to break it free. Whenever that happens it will cause the piece of wood to swing, or jump. Neither is healthy for the climber. My goal as a crane operator was to have the piece cut free and just hover over the place it was cut from or move slightly away from the climber. If I had to rotate the piece over the climber I would wait until the climber had moved to a safe location that kept him out from under the piece.

Safety was always our prime directive during craning operations.

As for the type of chokers used. We prefered cable chokers that allowed us to pass one eye thru the other forming a loop. We did not rely on the type of chokers used on skidders that have a sliding hook. We did not feel that these were safe enough to use with a crane. We inspected them after each job and removed from service any that were suspect.

Ekka · 5th November 2007, 05:45 PM

Very good.

Must be aware of the swing.

Here's some diagrams I made to illustrate what to look out for.

quercus · 30th December 2007, 11:13 AM

I fired a guy last year for doing stuff like on the pictures in post nr. 1. He only did that sort of thing when I was not around on the job site, but I was already planning on firing him for being a complete fruitcake as well. He also tipped an aerial platform over a few years ago when he was still working for another company.This I knew but everybody always said that was an accident. After firing him people said the accident was caused by him and it was an act of lunacy as he violently played around with the 22 tonne machine, riding over stems and large piles of branches and so on and so on...

treevet · 30th December 2007, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quercus

I fired a guy last year for doing stuff like on the pictures in post nr. 1. He only did that sort of thing when I was not around on the job site, but I was already planning on firing him for being a complete fruitcake as well. He also tipped an aerial platform over a few years ago when he was still working for another company.This I knew but everybody always said that was an accident. After firing him people said the accident was caused by him and it was an act of lunacy as he violently played around with the 22 tonne machine, riding over stems and large piles of branches and so on and so on...

You have the inexperienced employee who attempt improper techniques. They are vetoed by the boss. Then you have the inexperienced boss (owner operator). He is reticent to use bad or questionable technique for fear that a disaster will happen destroying the reputation of his company and his financial status so he seeks training and is careful. Thus the evolution of a climber. Enter a third classification......the experienced stupid employee. Training and even legislation will not preclude him from having an accident. I think you could search the "Peter Principle". We all suffer from this person in many ways, one of which is massive amounts of PPE and elimination of routine technique (for qualified arborists) that he is destined to abuse by not checking down worst case scenerios.

View Poll Results: Do YOU approve of what you see in the pics of post #1?
Yes	4	10.00%
No	36	90.00%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

1st November 2007, 08:48 PM	#52 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb Great photo and great pick Reg, i can just imagine the big grin on your face as the crane lifts that one away.......like the preverbial Cheshire Arborist __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

1st November 2007, 09:03 PM	#53 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,659	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb Both Reg and Allmark's crane work videos are primo. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st November 2007, 11:54 PM	#54 (permalink)
RC1 Fly'n Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Macclesfield England Posts: 128	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb Thanks. It had two chains attached at the same point. It came off as smooth as it appears in the photo. It is the second lift in this video: Horse Chestnut felling with crane I assure you, single-point ballancing is easier than you might think. Some people like snap cuts, some don't. Judging the cut and crane tension takes practice but the benefit is being able to move away before the lift

2nd November 2007, 01:51 AM	#55 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,659	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb Yeah that's a great video, big tree it was. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

5th November 2007, 02:59 PM	#56 (permalink)
redstree Gettin' motoring Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: USA Posts: 23	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb Trying to get back on track. As someone who has both been the climber working with a crane and the crane operator working with a climber all I can say is communication between the crane operator and the climber is extremely important. Having a crane operator who is familiar with tree removals is also important. We were lucky to have our own crane, granted it wasn't the largest, just 85'(25m) and 5 tons(4.5 metric tons) but it did an awful lot of work during it's life time. When we needed a larger crane we rented one, with an operator. Fortunately we were lucky to have a few crane operators experienced in tree work in our area. When everything is going according to plan it is just like a beautiful dance with the crane operator and climber each knowing what the other is going to do and anticipating the others moves. This sort of dance starts on the ground before the job starts with a discussion about the order in which things will be done. As has been pointed out before, how the choker/sling is placed determines what will happen as the crane takes a strain. The climber must understand this as it is his butt on the line if he does it wrong. As a crane operator I would always double check the setting of the choker to be sure that the climber was making his cut so that the cut and choker placement would work in concert to open the cut as a strain was taken. We would often stand up a horizontal limb as it was being cut. This was done by starting with a pie cut on the top of the limb. Frequently we would employ a tag line tied above the cut to help control the butt end. As the back cut was made the climber would signal when to start lifting. A slow lift was always used to just keep the cut open until a normal hinge was all that was left. Then the crane would lift the piece vertical, just like felling a tree, the hinge would hold the butt until it was vertical. At this point the crane would be directly over the piece, or slightly away from the climber, then the climber would cut the hinge if it had not seperated. The crane should never be used to break the hinge. Even the ripped piece, clearly visable in the photos, should not have happened. The climber should have finished the cut so the crane only had to lift the piece and not have to break it free. Whenever that happens it will cause the piece of wood to swing, or jump. Neither is healthy for the climber. My goal as a crane operator was to have the piece cut free and just hover over the place it was cut from or move slightly away from the climber. If I had to rotate the piece over the climber I would wait until the climber had moved to a safe location that kept him out from under the piece. Safety was always our prime directive during craning operations. As for the type of chokers used. We prefered cable chokers that allowed us to pass one eye thru the other forming a loop. We did not rely on the type of chokers used on skidders that have a sliding hook. We did not feel that these were safe enough to use with a crane. We inspected them after each job and removed from service any that were suspect. __________________ Drive a MINI, the most fun you can have with your trousers on.

30th December 2007, 11:13 AM	#58 (permalink)
quercus Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 414	Re: Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb I fired a guy last year for doing stuff like on the pictures in post nr. 1. He only did that sort of thing when I was not around on the job site, but I was already planning on firing him for being a complete fruitcake as well. He also tipped an aerial platform over a few years ago when he was still working for another company.This I knew but everybody always said that was an accident. After firing him people said the accident was caused by him and it was an act of lunacy as he violently played around with the 22 tonne machine, riding over stems and large piles of branches and so on and so on...

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