Are YOU teaching bad habits? How to stand up a limb

Marc

I'm unaware of those pictures, if they are part of a how to its not something I would follow.
Its easy enough to point out mistakes in his approach from those stills, but to get a better understanding I would like to see a video and actually have input from MB himself.

I'm not saying criticism is bad, but we also need objective opinion about maybe why he is doing it that way.

Its good to see though that some people are'nt afraid to put up pics of there work even if the work is not to best practice (not taking into account that its meant to be some how to guide??) as it can start discussions like this.
Which is covering more than just crane work, of which I have little personal experience.


Jim1nz, i'm not saying anyone is an idiot, i personally do not harbour strong feeling towards anyone, even if they are an idiot, its their perogative, i,e i'm a very tolerant person.

I was merely trying to provoke thought and discussion, my main point being is that in this line of work nothing is ever regular, you may know all the best practice in the world but occasionally you have to think outside the box as it were and carry out a task differently,,,,, i'm not to good at getting my point across which is evident.

I'm fortunate to of learnt from dozens of top climbers, and worked with all skill levels. Some of the newbies fresh from college have a strict sense of whats right and best practice, they often carry out a task to best practice because it is what they are taught rather than thinking for themselves.

A case in point and kinda what I mean about making climbing idiot proof:
On a job involving re-pollarding some old willow, where the willow stems had grown to nearly 30ft in length and straight with diameters of 6-8" approx.

We had one of the new guys up a tree, and I was told to keep an eye on him, he got himself anchored in on one of the central vertical poles and went to one of the laterals that was growing outwards from the crown.
He got into position about 6ft out from the old pollard point and was finding it hard to hold his position, so he went to lanyard onto the stem, at which point I shouted upto him to not bother, he yelled back that he was taught to always have a second tie in point (which is true) to which I told him to THINK why am i not reccomending he tie in?

This is my point, climbers or groundies doing something through automated action just because thats best practice instead of thinking through the task at hand, you cannot make this job idiot proof!.

In the end I got the climber to set-up a second tie in point on another branch to give him stability, then he made the cut and as I predicted it barber chaired, that happened to him on nearly 30% of the limbs that were heavily leaning, o.k some of it was his blunt saw and lack of accuracy.

The other point to take note is he had been working with us all day, and had seen several of the trees pollarded already, a couple of the guiys had them barber on them or the bark tear out, most only had one anchor, he just thought they were idiots not using best practice, and failed to understand the reason why they did not have a second anchor.

This is only one example.

Whats worse is some newbie who come out of college or training and goes striaght into bad habits because thats what he sees other climbers doing around him, even though those guys have 10 years or more experience!!

I watched one guy removing epicormic from a lime trunk using one hand on the saw at full revs, going nose first towrads the trunk with the saw between his legs, at anytime it could kicked back and embedded itself in his stomach or worse still his family allowance.

I asked him why he did it that way and his answer was "that the way all pro climbers use the saw"

So yeah be carefull who you teach your bad habits to.

Marc

And Boa, about the wear and tear point I have to disagree, I know 3 retiered commercial climbers 2 with destroyed tendons in there arms, and one with a bad back, there advice is always do a little climbing as possible, make fewer cuts and always find an effcient and comfortable position to cut in.

It seems to me to make good sense, although your point is pretty much what I meant, work smart not harder and all that.

As for reducing your cuts, that makes perfect sense to me, the major issue as I see it is undercutting especially with the top of the cutting bar, when you pull that up and into the cut there is no doubt it puts more strain on your arms and back than say resting the saw on top of the limb and letting the bar cut down, the weight is held by the wood and not you and the chain is pulling against the dogs.
Please correct me if i'm wrong.

I also think wear and tear is down to what level your working at, I know companies that expect their climbers to prune 3 say veteran Oaks a day, where as other will give you 1. yet both expect the same quality.

Sean Freeman

Hi Marc, interesting points, if during repollarding of any species with great age I permitted the limbs I was working on to barber chair or tear down the bark I don't think I'd be getting a call back from that company again, and rightly so. Sounds, as you suggest that the chain was not sharp enough, nor the climber.

If I have to carry a large saw into the tree to remove heavy wood I always make sure I'm getting into a postion from which I can work with control over the saw, poor work positioning is the number one cause of stress injuries in climbers. One guy has said to me in the past that its tree work and its going to be uncomfortable, to which I replied that there was no requirement in our job to make things uncomfortable. There certainly are times when removing a limb requires me to get into very awkard positions, looking more like a yoga practitioner than anything else, but with careful forethought and planning of your cuts before you make them and the sequence that you make them in I have found the straining you describe to be very much the exception than the rule. As such that exception is something I will bear to maintian what I consider to be safe working methods.

I am very fortunate to be in a position where the company I work for values me and my skills, but I am not silly enough to fail to recognise that others are in positions that require them to "get it done" then move onto to the next job. The pressure on climbers for speed at the cost of safety is a real problem, I've seen it like everyone else. Its one of the main reasons why I am commited to getting best practice standards established here in Queensland, without them there is no job specfic protection for tree workers at all.

Marc

O.k it probaly sounds bad my description of the climber tearing out limbs and barber chairing, the boss was on site at this job, a particularly large job with pressure to get it done, unfortunatly although the company I work for is without doubt of the highest quality in terms of the work they do this job was very much quantity over quality, although the finished job was still to higher standards than most would do in the circumstance, but i'm not here to justify the reasoning behind the work.
The boss is all for challenging new climbers, he often like to put them in situations outside there comfort zone to see how the respond, not in a way that would risk the climber, now it was messy but I hope that he learnt valueble lessons from his mistakes, I know I did.

Tree work is a funny game out here, in my area there are 5-6 large quality firms and 60 one man banders of varying quality, most are hacks. Its a very competitive marketplace, with the small outfits undercutting the big ones, so it unfortunatly means the larger firms really have to up there productive output.
In the name of speed guys cut corners (ugly term) to be faster, I wish it was different and so do they, but a climber is rated by his commercial speed and quality combined. Me I prefer quality over quantity, now i'm lucky I can find enough work to keep to my ethics and approach to work, others prefer the glory of being the quickest, but I do respect them, most of the best have never suffered injury to themsleve or others, but they do not always work to best practice, unfortunatly as a result there commercial viablilty seems to end at 40 years old. Which to me is to young to stop climbing.

I wish things could be different, but I would'nt want to see companies like the ones I work for disappear, they are the hero's of tree work over here, but there is no way they could compete if they had climbers who always got themselves into good working positions etc etc, very sad but true.

We have a company called Treevolution and a guy called Paulo Baveresco or something i'll try to find links, who are pushing for changes in the industry, unfortunatly must firms I work for just cannot adopt there best practice and still be commercially viable.

Change will happen just very very slowly.

Sean Freeman

You're right things are a little diferent in the UK, even regionally there are quite dramatic differences in the market place, LGAs' perspective on urban forestry etc...and the age limit at 40...well since I'm over that mark it sort of explains part of my approach to my climbing I quess.

I'm assuming you meant this guy http://www.treemettlenexus.com/ Paolo Bavaresco his website is excellent his work ethics and philosophy beyond reproach great guy doing great work in a very beautiful part of Britain just quietly

Its also really good that you want to work for the company you're currently with staff turn over is a real killer for cohesive efficient and safe work crews in our profession. I'm also very lucky the small company I work for is the exception in the North (Cowboy country) I would last not one half hour in the other tree businessess around here (PPE why would we need that we're not unsafe!!!! )

Change will happen Marc and it will happen because of guys like you working alongside others showing why professional tree care is better for everyone, clients, workers, owners, trees and the environment as a whole. (OK speech over )

jim1nz

Once again Boa great post.

Marc, good contribution. Great points raised. I have always said the best arborists are ones that think efficiency with an out of the box approach.

You are right, "in tree work nothing is ever regular, you may know all the best practice in the world but occasionally you have to think outside the box as it were and carry out a task differently".

I think work positioning as Boa comments on is very important. You will find good climbers, climbers who can get around the tree with ease, smoothly and efficiently do not struggle to get into a good position for their cuts. Its second nature to them, very little effort. Less effort exerted means less strain on the body.

We use our lanyards not only as a double roping point but also as a work positioning aid. It helps me not hinders me, it takes 2 seconds to put it on, i dont find it any effort what so ever.

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jim1nz

Marc, ill be in Sweden in a couple of days and will continue to the UK after that. I cant wait to get over there and check it all out!

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Sean Freeman

Man Jim are you the jet setting Arbo or what?? (

jim1nz

Absolutely Boa, im going to go every where see what i can learn.

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Ekka

Yeah, and it's friggin too far for you to come to Brisbane.

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Sean Freeman

Well its too scary for me down there in the dry capital 18.9% left in your dams!, we water people of the North need to stay up here and wash each others driveways twice a day, what with that and the daily water fights, no time to travel.

TrevMcRev

Haha, we've just hit the trigger point for level 4 restrictions but the gov are holding 3a.

Boa i think you missed a spot on the driveway, get the hose out

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Ekka

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allmarktree

I use a straight thru cut quite often. It is very predictable,offers excellent control and is efficient. That being said, it is all that with the proper experience(crane operator and cutter.) Knowledge of tree species is important. Ive turned elm trees inside out and upside down before a cut was finished.

allmarktree

I would like to continue reading the critisism of everyones technique(including mine), but it is not necessary to criticise the person to be educational. I think this is counter productive and I have stopped reading some threads due to this.

jim1nz

Allmark, have you tried any other cuts specific to crane work? Seen anyone else? Why do you think your way is better then, i have said what i think, teach me...

Regarding critisism, if no one ever did criticise we would all still be climbing on 3 strand rope, using screw gates and all with no PPE. How are we supposed to develop without questions and constructive critisism?

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Ekka

I think what he means Jim is we should critize the technique but not the person ... however I make concessions for MB all the time.

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allmarktree

I have seen and used other techniques. I use most of the cuts discussed here and elsewhere specific to cranes. I never said my way was better. I was just saying I dont agree with the critisism of the straight thru cut that was posted. My opinion I guess. I believe knowing all possible techniques and perfecting them will make me a safer and better tree professional.
IM STILL LEARNING.

allmarktree

Ekka

Hey Jim, this Allmark guy has his own crane and a stack of videos, he is pretty good!

Imagine that, having your own crane, then you'd be able to try many things without that horrific bill they give you.

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Ekka

Having had a look through Reg's pics

RC1 pics

I had to pull this one off and chat about it.

Reg, did the piece stay flat? And did it do so by you guessing the mid weight point?

How many attachment points did that piece have?
I like the cut, notice the snap cut. All seems pretty smooth and controlled to me.

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Sean Freeman

Great photo and great pick Reg, i can just imagine the big grin on your face as the crane lifts that one away.......like the preverbial Cheshire Arborist

Ekka

Both Reg and Allmark's crane work videos are primo.

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RC1

Thanks. It had two chains attached at the same point. It came off as smooth as it appears in the photo. It is the second lift in this video:

Horse Chestnut felling with crane

I assure you, single-point ballancing is easier than you might think.

Some people like snap cuts, some don't. Judging the cut and crane tension takes practice but the benefit is being able to move away before the lift

Ekka

Yeah that's a great video, big tree it was.

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redstree

Trying to get back on track. As someone who has both been the climber working with a crane and the crane operator working with a climber all I can say is communication between the crane operator and the climber is extremely important.

Having a crane operator who is familiar with tree removals is also important. We were lucky to have our own crane, granted it wasn't the largest, just 85'(25m) and 5 tons(4.5 metric tons) but it did an awful lot of work during it's life time. When we needed a larger crane we rented one, with an operator. Fortunately we were lucky to have a few crane operators experienced in tree work in our area.

When everything is going according to plan it is just like a beautiful dance with the crane operator and climber each knowing what the other is going to do and anticipating the others moves. This sort of dance starts on the ground before the job starts with a discussion about the order in which things will be done.

As has been pointed out before, how the choker/sling is placed determines what will happen as the crane takes a strain. The climber must understand this as it is his butt on the line if he does it wrong.

As a crane operator I would always double check the setting of the choker to be sure that the climber was making his cut so that the cut and choker placement would work in concert to open the cut as a strain was taken. We would often stand up a horizontal limb as it was being cut.

This was done by starting with a pie cut on the top of the limb. Frequently we would employ a tag line tied above the cut to help control the butt end. As the back cut was made the climber would signal when to start lifting. A slow lift was always used to just keep the cut open until a normal hinge was all that was left. Then the crane would lift the piece vertical, just like felling a tree, the hinge would hold the butt until it was vertical. At this point the crane would be directly over the piece, or slightly away from the climber, then the climber would cut the hinge if it had not seperated. The crane should never be used to break the hinge.

Even the ripped piece, clearly visable in the photos, should not have happened. The climber should have finished the cut so the crane only had to lift the piece and not have to break it free. Whenever that happens it will cause the piece of wood to swing, or jump. Neither is healthy for the climber. My goal as a crane operator was to have the piece cut free and just hover over the place it was cut from or move slightly away from the climber. If I had to rotate the piece over the climber I would wait until the climber had moved to a safe location that kept him out from under the piece.

Safety was always our prime directive during craning operations.

As for the type of chokers used. We prefered cable chokers that allowed us to pass one eye thru the other forming a loop. We did not rely on the type of chokers used on skidders that have a sliding hook. We did not feel that these were safe enough to use with a crane. We inspected them after each job and removed from service any that were suspect.

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Ekka

Very good.

Must be aware of the swing.

Here's some diagrams I made to illustrate what to look out for.

Attached Thumbnails

     

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quercus

I fired a guy last year for doing stuff like on the pictures in post nr. 1. He only did that sort of thing when I was not around on the job site, but I was already planning on firing him for being a complete fruitcake as well. He also tipped an aerial platform over a few years ago when he was still working for another company.This I knew but everybody always said that was an accident. After firing him people said the accident was caused by him and it was an act of lunacy as he violently played around with the 22 tonne machine, riding over stems and large piles of branches and so on and so on...

treevet

You have the inexperienced employee who attempt improper techniques. They are vetoed by the boss. Then you have the inexperienced boss (owner operator). He is reticent to use bad or questionable technique for fear that a disaster will happen destroying the reputation of his company and his financial status so he seeks training and is careful. Thus the evolution of a climber. Enter a third classification......the experienced stupid employee. Training and even legislation will not preclude him from having an accident. I think you could search the "Peter Principle". We all suffer from this person in many ways, one of which is massive amounts of PPE and elimination of routine technique (for qualified arborists) that he is destined to abuse by not checking down worst case scenerios.

kiwi_tree_steve

hey jim im really stoked about doing this course a the end of the year, the WINTEC courses and tutors are Awesome and i recomend them to any one wanting professional training!

steve

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