Wow...

Therrin

Did a little thin & lift for a guy today.

He was watching for a while, then I thought he just got something in his eye. After a bit I realized he was crying, and went in the house. Later he came out with his eyes all red and I stopped to ask him what was wrong.
He says, he knows it needed to be done, but he just can't stand the thought of the tree losing some of its "life force" and that he couldn't stand to watch it.



Any of you guys come across something like this before? It was very "secrets-of-Gaia meets Eastern-mysticism meets new-age-tree-love".

pawjordan

Yea
I cried when my first wife left me
For a second
Paul

Drouin Tree Service

I had a guy who had his psychologist on the phone while we T/D his trees,He wasnt dealing with it real well i guess!!

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Eric Frei

Sure, still often encounter Guy Meilleur around the place sobbing!

__________________

Gunslinger

This client is from California right? Doesn't seem too unusual.

Drouin Tree Service

oohhhh so true!!!

__________________

Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Therrin

ZZZing!

I tried to console him, but I didn't really know what to say. I told him that the Life Force of his tree was totally intact and that it was a nice flourishing specimen. Fruitless Mullberry. Ugh... damn thing had roots tearing up his grass all over the place.

Bob Tooley

I'd tell him that trees and plants are the lowest members of the natural food chain and the good lord built a very high degree of loss-ratio into them so they could supply many and still have sufficient reserve energy to survive.

Therrin

Sounds... very well thought out.

Bob Tooley

Most customers, and some right within our industry, see trees for everything they're 'not', and it reduces tree work sales, as well as customer satisfaction, because simplicity has been made complex. People believe trees are designed to sustain life for their tree's own use and intent, but plants and trees are the 'only' objects on earth that can take 'dirt', combine it with other available gases and fluids, to create the 'food' which keeps everything else on earth alive. They forget the nature-intent and 'purpose' of a tree or plant design and existence is to "be a food source", so they tell you not to 'remove' anything from their tree because it can 'injure the tree'...
Additionally, these same people see this big huge tree which has lived for a hundred years on their front lawn and affix a human prospective onto it which 'isn't real'. The biological living portion of their tree is 'only' one year old..the current seasons growth, and the rest is a maintained, but primarily inactive 'structure' which the living portion grows on and is wrapped around, so a 20-ton tree, for appearances sake, might only have a hundred pounds of actively living material involved, and the actual 'life energy' loss for removing a large limb can be as small as only a few ounces. I think its important to insure customers recognize what their tree really is so they can relate what we do to them with a better understanding... and it reduces the conflict between us and some of the sentimental tree huggers who also see emotions more then they see facts.

stargazer

Bob, nice clear and scientific, thought provoking, description of a tree.

There goes the old Gaia meets Eastern-mysticism meets new-age-tree-love!

Knotahippie

Removing an old limb may draw on some serious "life energy" or reserves from a tree that is mature or over mature.

Skirting or raising starves the roots in some cases.

Removal of low canopy limbs over 10 yrs. old on many sp. don't compartmentalize well.

I've seen hundreds of cuts like that harm a tree well beyond the wound site.

Root damage is very possible.

Massive cambial injury from the wound to the ground is common due to interupted vascular flow.

Other than that it's cool.

Bob Tooley

There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, one of the main points is that no matter how old the tree is, and baring any trans-year fungus', bacteria and etc., you can work with the new growth potential each year to offset or overcome the complications of the previous years...along with trying to eliminate the external health-limiting factors... Basically, I was trying to point out the simplicity approach as an explanation toward customer relations and letting the Arborist work within his/her judgment scale to know the other tree limitations involved.
My reference to the large limb removal was used as a matter of prospective in relationship to what actually is -vs- what is generally believed.

Knotahippie

I see what you're getting at Bob, thanks for the clarification

You see where I'm coming from...

It kinda' bugs most educated hort. folks when tree dudes perform work according to the homeowners specs without informing them of future health and hazard potential.

Good chance of the tree looking worse in a couple years with big ol' limb removals.

Job security I guess.

Bob Tooley

We have a lot of 'good examples of bad examples' working in this industry, and some use these websites as 'how-to' manuals, and if I encounter one of them humping my leg...I'm out of there... I did my day in hell climbing trees and have settled into the health aspects now, so I've gotten side tracked, with regard to many of the new 'pruning' techniques, and remain focused in my specific function within the industry, so I don't pretend to challenge 'any' input from the 'pruning' side. I too see your point and I both respect and appreciate your knowledge and a also appreciate your input... Non of us are in this industry alone..we are a collective group who 'need' each other in order to make it whole...again... Tnx Bob

Therrin

All good points guys.

*Therrin gets a mental picture of Newguy18 trying to hump Bob Tooley's leg and suddenly falls over laughing his ass off*

Bob Tooley

The real bitch of the matter is...they hump your leg, but for lack of any useful knowledge in return...you don't get a damn thing in return.

Therrin

You're an expert Bob, NG isn't probably the type to be teaching you things anyway.

Now me, I'd definitely listen to what you have to say.... but I'd not hump yer leg for it. All work and no payoff isnt my thing.

It was interesting to see just how far you folks went with this thread, considering how very little I actually said about the tree. All types of things, though not assumed, became brought up which may or may not have had anything to do with the tree in question.

T'was a fruitless mulberry. Was dragging/leaning on the roof in places, as well as in front of the front door. The largest pruning cut I made was about 3" or so (using the 3 cut method). Personally I HATE seeing those trees in front yards. They've a terrible tendancy to shoot off ground level exposed roots, (which get mowed over often), break up sidewalks and whatnot.
Don't get me wrong, I think they're pretty, but most people put them in the WRONG PLACE, and; though pretty while young, can get to be a real pain in the ass when it gets bigger.
I'm not one to say "the tree is a living thing, it cant be in the wrong spot because it's alive". My opinion... if it was put in the wrong spot, it can be taken out, and something else can be put in. I don't take a customer's advice on HOW to do the work, but I do take his input insofar as what HE thinks the problem is, to judge what he knows about the actual situation and what he merely assumes or suspects.
I'd take the damn thing out, life force and all, if it were my decision to make.

In the end, I can't force a homeowner to take the path of care which I think is correct. I *can* however, not do what I know to be harmfull.

Eric Frei

Well said. Thing is around here most dont give a rats ass and will do what the customer wants regardless. The other issue is that when a customer hears the right thing less often than the wrong you can be seen as the odd man out or a tree huggin fool.

For instance, topping is rife here, customer gets 3 quotes for topping .... I tell them it's wrong and he says, "no-one else mentioned anything like that, so are you going to do it or not because that's what I want, a shorter tree."

In this post 2 years ago I commenced restorative pruning of the crown. I stressed to the customer that annually we thin out those sprouts and make a sound new canopy. He never rang back (only lives a street away). I told him back in July 2007 that if he wanted a 10' tree he should remove this one, stump grind and plant a more appropriate 10' screening tree/shrub.

Had he have done that 2 years ago he wouldn't have re-topped this thing. So now he has paid the topper in 2005, paid me to prune in 2007 and paid to re-top in 2009. Had I have seen him in 2005 and removed the tree he may have had a nice 10' to 15' tall mature something else in there requiring no maintenance.

To keep a leapard tree 15' tall will be a tough task.

http://www.treeworld.info/f8/ekkas-p...html#post62997

__________________

Bob Tooley

Most residential trees are out-of-their-former element today. When these trees were younger they set up house keeping in septic systems and had a much more 'open' area to root and range in. Now when they're headed for 'social security'...they've lost all their former resources. Trees in cities are a people thing..certainly not one for the trees forced to live there... I condemned an in-city tree as dangerous and the neighborhood had a sit-down strike against my judgment call. Being an arborist, if I make a call against a tree and reverse the decision under pressure, I assume the responsibility and liability for my actions. I told the neighborhood to bring me an insurance policy which covered the tree for damages it might cause and I'd gladly change my call. Once the responsibility and etc., was put onto them...their position suddenly changed... They want their trees to live on nothing, will spend nothing to keep them alive and expect everything to be just fine..for nothing..
I've had to give more damn wake-up calls to towns and cities who want both ends in the middle and do it 'as cheap as possible'...does 'you get what you pay for'...ring any bells...

We need to point out where the weak 2/3rds of an otherwise competent industry...does not make 'them' the majority.. and until we can prune the deadwood out of our own industry, 'we' are going to be part of this 'dying' tree. The BS of "the customer is always right" doesn't give professionals much need to be "professional"..... and simple licensing 'isn't' an assurance of knowledge...or quality...

newguy18

I don't teach anyone,or offer too,like wise i also don't like others trying to teach me climbing,tree health is a different matter though.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Bob Tooley

That's not my war...I'm just a spectator here...

Eric Frei

Therrin and Newguy have a special relationship. Sort of reminds me of the movie Chopper.

__________________

newguy18

Trouble maker.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

windthrown

All this fuss and emotional overload over pruning forking trees?

JHC... I had a GF once that had a friend that cried every time that they cut a tree down in the neighborhood. She was always crying it seemed. A regular Julia Butterfly. Its a tree... its going to die anyway. Its old. Did not matter, she was emotionally attached to their life force and auras. She felt their pain. I said that plants do not have nerve cells, and feel no pain. Did not matter, as *she* could feel their pain. Or some such. That was in central California. I should have sent her some photos of some of the clear cuts I worked on in central Oregon. She would have had a stroke.

People in Portland are as bad though. That town is becoming completely overgown with trees that were planted in subdivisions. Need a permit to cut down anything there, or even prune. Most of the suburbs here are "Tree Cities" meaning managed by tree huggers. I know of hundreds of stands of trees in this state that are being held up for cutting becasue of lawsuits. So they are just going to burn down instead. Somehow that is far better.

Bob Tooley

The whole issue is one of public education which is currently...drastically lacking... The public sees and evaluates us from what we say and do, and it's no secret, we have 'spokes people' representing 'us' that don't have a clue of what they are talking about.. One made-up explanation, BS-line, or lie told to the public which knows better reduces the validity and effectiveness of every truth a professional uses in an otherwise.. well presented explanation.

I think it's very important for every professional to remain totally focused at his or her level of the trade, and not even recognize, acknowledge, or make excuses for, 'any' service which operates below that line. A professional doesn't have to 'stoop' below their knowledge bracket, but in stead, needs to make a point of their strengths rather then working at pointing out the 'ankle bitter's' weakness'. Keep in mind...if you acknowledge them, you involve and recognize them as part of 'your' profession....which is an accreditation 'they' don't deserve.

Knotahippie

I see what you mean windthrown.

I know some crazy tree sobbers too...and some crazy homeowners.

Alot of old, mismanaged trees up in portland?

It's like that in a city just north of us...alot of BIG trees planted near the turn of the century.

Some folks are just clueless...instead of getting the permits and reading the standards they either do nothing or just hack the poor things.

Reminds me of going to the vet and telling the vet to remove 2...no 3 legs from the family dog because it looks better.

The vet is broke...so it's on! (or off)

Could reduce the trees (or the dogs) life span by 2/3 or more.

What was a $200 report and prune turns into a $2000 fiasco and possible future removal.

Maybe the cities should just clear all of em' at the same time...

Then replant with some lame hybrid sp. and then wonder why they burn.

windthrown

I like your 2 legged dog analogy. A lot of 'pruning' here is a joke. I will have to start snapping photos of some of the hack jobs that the Mexican tree butchers do here. Image a tree trunk with 18 inch long and foot wide stubs. I posted some of the other lopsided Craigslist 'come and whack at it for firewood' pruning jobs here before. Then there are the pollard street trees, like London Plains trees, and Sycmores. They pollard them a lot in the bay area too. I lived in the south bay for 10 years before moving up here.

Knotahippie

I do some jobs where trees are pollarded...but it was done when they were really small.

Can keep a monster mulberry managable if done properly.

A ton of work every season though.

Don't you just love it when people "pollard" a 30 yr. old mulberry or a plane tree and the bark scalds, black bacteria stains run down the limbs, profuse suckers etc...

Sometimes I wanna' say "and you paid money for that?"

Try to let em' down easy I guess.

Eric Frei

Some on another "site" have commenced this idea as the new practice, even though it was well hashed out here and beaten over the head scientifically.

I refer to the idea as the http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=meilleur+folie+cut&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3MOZA_enAU325AU325&ie=UTF-8. The author of the cut also contended that one size does in fact fit all, genetics/species etc irrelevant.

__________________