Work regs / lack of insurance / Dangerous Trees

newguy18

Not full of crap,i do everything old school,new school is just to safety oriented for me.2 1/2 years climbing,started with a set of klein gaffs,back belt,2 saws 50' of rope and the tree climbers companion,everything else was learned from books,forums and hands on.Last time i checked the z and osha regs don't apply to solo operators with no employees.I personally don't give a shit if you or anyone else likes me or the way i do things,but generally when i hear bad about a product i avoid it like the plague.good day to you sir.

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old schooler

(WLL)

you had betta take another look Bill, the rules apply to everyone in America. The rules are there to protect employers and employees alike. i cant stand how you disregard safety. if you don't care about your own safety, why the hell would you care about anyone else's, the trees your work or anything else you do. stop thinking with your ass Bill, and start taking care of yourself, others, and your business. Be safe, be smart
BTW Bill, were still friends right? my posts were not made to disrespect you, but to give it to ya strait up and let you know how your rubbing off on me. until next time my good buddy

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newguy18

I care more about the tree's health and work being done to a tree i'm pruning than myself.I seldom need ground help but when i do,they have a hard hat,eye and ear protection,chaps and anything else i think might be nessecary,i always yell headache before chucking a piece of wood or tripping a cut,as long as everyone else is safe,thats all i care about.Keep listening to the z and osha,next they'll tell you how to wipe your ass safely,without one handing.Hell i 'm suprised theres not a standard on climbing dead trees yet.From experiance i've been in situations where 2 tie ins would have killed me,where one handing was safer than 2 handing.There are exceptions to every rule.

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Gunslinger

Actually I think that Bill is correct about OSHA and sole proprietor businesses with no employees. Basically if you own the company and are the only worker you can work outside of certain regulations that would apply if you had employees. Those regulations are there to protect those employees from being forced by an employer to do things that are potentially unsafe. If Bill wants to make a rope out of toilet paper and fall from the tree that should be his business.

So Bill, what have you heard, what's wrong with Geckos?

Therrin

I think WLL has a point Bill, you should try things before you start bashing them instead of taking everyone else's words for granted. Otherwise you just end up slinging other people's shit for them and you arent coming from an intelligent point-of-view that's self-tested.

I won't comment on the pro's or con's from a DEFINITE point of view of something I've never tried before, cuz if I did then it'd be pure bullshit, since I wouldnt be a reliable source. He's got ya there.

If the geckos were as bad as you say they are, then everyone would know it and noone would use them, so you've obviously gotta be wrong to a certain degree.


Furthermore, you state that you care more about the trees health and the work being done than you care about your own life.
I would NEVER HIRE SOMEONE LIKE YOU. Because with that kind of attitude I might end up having to scrape you up off the ground, and health of the trees be damned if you end up cratering yourself.
To be efficient at ANYTHING in life you have to love and care about yourself and yoru health and saftey first and foremost in order to accomplish the goals and degree of work perfection that you plan to achieve.


As far as OSHA regs for a sole operator business.... The cities here tend to have their own policies, and they tend to follow OSHA guidelines. So even if you were a single owner/operator working solo, but you didnt have PPE, cones, etc while working in that city, they'd come by and nail you for it.

Now you Bill, work mostly out in the sticks and backcountry, so I'm sure you don't have to put up with those kinds of policies and such that most normal in-city professionals have to deal with on a daily basis.
Furthermore, you have no insurance. My insurance was based on the fact of my following OSHA, because otherwise they had no guarantee that I was acting in a safe manner or operating in a way that could be relied on to some degree.

When I was doing mostly backwoods work and such I didnt have to worry about that stuff either, but when I turned professional and had to LOOK and ACT the part in order to up my business and bring in regular customers, I had to notch things up a bit.

(WLL)

Bill's prolly thinkin, whada a-hole that (WLL) guy is

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newguy18

Ken,I've been doing alot of in town and city work,that pine was in downtown lake city,insurance is not required in suwannee county,ui'm not the only one who works without ppe,everybody does it here,at least i wear a hard hat with muffs on.About the geckoes,i said it was stuff i've heard,so i'm not willing to give them a go,besides i love my caddies.I've never given a rats ass about my own life,probably explains alot but thats how i am,nothing will change that.WLL,i don't think your an ass,yuo seem like a pretty decent guy,if anything,i'm an ass.Oh and yes i have an ego,it comes natural when you good.

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old schooler

(WLL)

Get your shit together, then you will have more to offer than the normal Dead Twig tree Kudder and also look good/professional doing it too

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newguy18

i look good,while climbing in a hard hat,i have my act togther.I'm safer than most every operator in my area.As i've said,there are exceptions to every rule,espically when yuo climb very dangerous,rotten trees.

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Therrin

Bill, you're not the only one who does that you know....

newguy18

Picture this scenario,last summer a good client called me in to remove and 85' laurel oak with severe root rot,i climbed the oak next to it,tied in and rappelled down,swung over to the doomed tree,i decided it was a bad idea to tie in with my flipline while cutting,i made my cuts,as the top started going over,i swung away.turned around,only to see the whole tree going over.2 tie ins will kill you in some instances,some instances they are more help than hinderance,but i rely more on my knowledge than some dumb safety standard that some guy in a suit wrote down.

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HolmenTree

I had a similar job last summer to your oak newguy. I had to remove a 60 ft dead poplar in close quarters to a house. Seeing the tree was killed due to canker with lots of decay in it [and wood pecker/sap sucker burrows] I tied into a neighboring healthy poplar with my climbing line on a friction saver. I spurred up the dead tree with a lanyard and advancing my blakes as I went up. Now here is the kicker. My lanyard for this job is a breakaway Bungee saw lanyard attached to the end of my regular lanyard. Now we all know if the tree should fail it happens so fast a man cannot unclip his lanyard fast enough. Now with the breakaway saw lanyard it breaks at 200 lbs which is enough to get up up safely [double crotched of course] and dismantle the tree but if the tree fails the 200 lbs is a good limit to free you from that tree.

newguy18

Another guy i know used clothsline and bungee cords to do it,i just don't tie into dead rotten trees if i can help it,espically ones in such poor condition.

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HolmenTree

Yes last resource for sure. Who knows where the failed tree will fall. I always do a pull test with the help of my Bigshot and throw line on a questionable tree to see if the root plate moves or if some cracking is going on. Just pull it in the direction of the least valuable property.

newguy18

Thats a good idea,i'll have to remember that one,i usually do a ground level evaluation,then if i feel alright about it,i'll climb either the doomed tree,or one next to it and see how it looks.If i won't work in a tree,thats because no i ands or buts,the tree will kill me.Some trees i'll even guy to the ground and wreck them out.

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Therrin

Several times I've used other trees right next to the decayed/rotten one and not tied into into the dead one permanently. The piece starts to go over and you swing free and see what's left of your work station after the havoc goes off.

I think that's one of the safest ways becaue you have a completely independent secure TIP.
Then you can just swing over and start working on the next section. If the other tree is close enough it even takes alot of your weight off of the tree you're working on.

spartek

Insurance is a must, anybody that would hire an "arborist" without liability is an idiot. You must live in a shack and not have anything to lose . You can get a million dollar policy for about $900 bucks a year. I can clear that in one day, and if you're of any account, you can too. Please spare the rest of us competant men from you bullshit. If a frikkin tree is worth more that your life, ,,,,I don't even know what to say to a dumb ass comment like that. Good luck on your next GAMBLE with life , limb , and property. Or is it property , limb , and life. People like you piss me off, and I'm out of here.

Eric Frei

Just had to say that line cracked me up.

All workers are obligated, it's occupational health and safety ... note the occupational part, how that occupation is structured (LLC, Pty Ltd, Partnership, Sole Proprietor etc) is irrelevant, if it's work it must comply.

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newguy18

How can i take you seriously?,you're an electrician 40 hours a week.I'm trees full time.

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old schooler

Therrin

Bill, you know, I remember not too long ago when you were complaining because you were only getting one job or so a month. Which means that for quite a while you were only a tree worker for a couple to several hours a month.

So how can he take YOU seriously? Besides, your obvious and much stated lack of personal safety doesnt exactly make people very comfy. If I were a homeowner and read half the stuff you've written I wouldnt want the liability of having you on my property.

He's likely had a REAL career since before you had ever touched trees, which lends him a certain level of professionalism that you can't match.

I think you're arguing a losing battle. Why don't you just get insurance? If you're really getting ALL the work you've said you've had lately, a $1Mil or $2Mil policy would be a drop in the bucket.

treejames64

I thought I was the only one using the breakaway laynard for those nasty trees. I always wonder when I'm leaning back.....Any way I also use zippers or screamers (under mountain climbing equipment) and dynamic rope instead of static so I can tie in lower incase the top breaks out. I'm looking for a belay device that can handle a shock load of around 3500 lbs. Do you know of any? I'm currently useing a gibbs ascender but heard that they are not made for lead climbers and are not designed for shock loads.

treejames64

Sorry, the belay device needs to be for the lead climber or for when you are climbing above your tie in point. The gibbs can allow you to let the rope through as you climb higer and yet will catch you if you go tumbeling down however it says it won't stand a high shock load. Has anyone use those new devices and are they capable of withstanding a shock load such as the grin, sorry forgot there names but Pretzel makes several.

Therrin

Treejames64,

As for a belay/rappel device, I use a Rack. It's got several bars which can be added or subtracted while in-use for varying levels of friction. And, it can handle single or double ropes, and is rated at 20,000lbs breaking strength.

I'll post a picture of it tonight after I get home from a group thing I'm going to.

newguy18

[QUOTE=Therrin;59633]
So how can he take YOU seriously? Besides, your obvious and much stated lack of personal safety doesnt exactly make people very comfy. If I were a homeowner and read half the stuff you've written I wouldnt want the liability of having you on my property.

[QUOTE]

Tell that to the company who just hired me as a climber/groundie.I'm considered to be one of the best treeguys in the area,i started on wedensday,next week i'll be runningthe bucket.

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old schooler

Sean Freeman

Guys you have well and truely wandered off topic esp since this is supposed to be Tree Regs, Law Business and Bureaucracy.

treejames64

Are we going to get fined?

Therrin

Well Sean I actually created this thread when I moved the posts over from the other thread, that's all that came to mind as far as naming it.

I could rename it to "The NG bashing Thread" if you'd like?

Bill's a good buddy, I just wish he'd rethink this whole "I dont care about my life, I just care about the tree work" thing.

Sean Freeman

Therrin there's no problem with the content...I know you and Bill enjoy ribbing each other....no probs there either, just this section of the site doen't seem the right spot is all....no biggie honestly.

Therrin

Sean, this thread was extracted off of the Hook&Boot thread because of the departure from the Hook&Boot topic.

This thread IS what it is... I only named it "Work Regs / Dead & Decayed Trees" because I couldnt think of what else to call it. It's just a made-up name.

The content is whatever it ends up being, My purpose in splitting this from the Hook&Boot thread was 1) to clean up that thread, and 2) to examine and open for discussion the way Bill runs his business and talk about it.

(for example, no insurance, strange procedures, non-standard equipment, risky techniques, lack of care for life&limb, etc)


But since I agree with you as far as the AREA of the forum that I put this thread, I'll move it again.

I have to go cut up some stuff for a client, I'll move it when I get back.

newguy18

First off,all my climbing and rigging gear is up to standard,the only thing in question is my work techniques and my lack of care for my own life.
Second,nothing i do is strange,just old school.

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old schooler