Work regs / lack of insurance / Dangerous Trees

phill ellison

behave your self you two, time for a group hug now

(WLL)

you know how stupid you sound. IMO old school is good school, your most like NO school!!. the way you talk, I'm thinking the most basic dead tdk's removed by you, are turned into the most dangerous trees around cause of your off set stupid thinking/ or lack off straiten up Bill, your outlook on life stinks, and your attitude sucks !!!

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Harder than theTH, and his pack of goons

Therrin

Woohoo Okay now we're safely nestled in "General Tree Chat"... I appreciate you pointing out the placement issue for this thread Sean.

Eric Frei

Bill, you may not care but others do ... do it for them.... and some of them are us.

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newguy18

I've spent many days just working out of a climbline,yesterday was one of them,just pruning.As for the dead dangerous trees,another local climber,a man with 30 years experiance refused to do half of them,some are nothing and have been dead for only a couple years,some have been dead for 20 years.
With a little fore thought,some ropes,ratchet straps,and occansionally grouns anchors and guy lines,an extrmely dangerous tree can be removed,considering the guy climbigng is careful and knows what he's doing.

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old schooler

treejames64

I was thinking of one new regulation that was brought about by another person who made a mistake... The false crotch... I use these on large trees and if I have to take multible cuts but I still use old school method of cutting in my own false crotch. Some guy cut one into just a little sapwood with a bad angle and the load came accross his safty so now they say that's a no---no. However when I know I have to rope a tree all the way down I try to leave stubs in the proper places and when need be cut in a crotch. As long as the cut in deep and the cut is cleaned so as not to pinch the rope, they work fine.. I don't think a regulation was needed here, just some training. If someone doesn't tie a false crotch correctly and throws his safty below it the same thing would happen...However you can't market the old method.. Its been around since the chainsaw came into existance...However, the pulley works really well for larger wood, over (over 2 ft. diameter).

newguy18

How'd i miss this?I rethink one thing,then the next thing you know i'll start going to a doctoror worse settling down.

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old schooler

Therrin

You might even stop spending all your time with guys and decide that girls really arent all that bad!

who knows???

So when you're just hooked in using a climb line, do you use a flip as a second attatchment point or do you just rely solely on the climbline?

newguy18

I don't want a relationship,its what gets guys suckered into marriage,then careing for life,fuc? that!if i give a damn,how am i suppose to buy and ride a bike that can do 186 mph?As for the climbline and using 2 tie ins,it all depends on how i feel about each situation like yesterday,just deadwooding an oak,maybe 40' off the ground,just tied in at the top,swung around,got the dead branches,very little limbwalking so no real need for another tie in,used my pole saw for most of it anyway.On the same note,theres been times where i needed and wanted 2 tie ins.

heres what the standards say exactly.
ansi z133.1(6.3.8)
Arborists shall use a second point of attachment (for example a lanyard or double crotched climbing line)when operating a chainsaw in a tree,unless the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second point of attachment while operating a chainsaw in that particular situation.

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old schooler

treejames64

How does the employee demonstrate that. Take a log to the gut? They made a law here in Florida that you got to wear your seatbelt. They tell us their concerned for our safty. Were fined for this however it's totally legal to jump out of air planes, race cars and boats, smoke cigarrets, and join the military. Go figure.

newguy18

I say this,i'll judge the situation,then do what i know i need to do to get the job done,perferably without breaking something.I have enough knowledge[and enough ego] to do a tree job without killing myself.

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old schooler

newguy18

Last time a cop pulled me over for not wearing a seat belt,i just laughed at him.

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old schooler

treejames64

I just think there are a lot of hypocrits. No one walks up to the man eating a Big Mac and smoking a cig to tell him he's setting a bad example. We say he lives in the land of the free. Now there's all these rules such as if you have more than one commercial vehical you have to have a office outside of your house, You have to post the latest work laws in your office which cost 45.00 for a legal copy, You have to wear armor to go to work, (unless you join the military than you get cotton) and pay for tons of people to enforce all this for my protection. However I'm aloud to stay home, drink beer, smoke cigs, eat junk food, look at porn,.....Please no more protection...

Therrin

The seat belt thing I cant really argue against.

Everytime someone turns into a vegetable from not wearing one, and they're on life support, local taxpayers end up footing the bill for it.

I can't recall as how a seat belt has ever really bothered me for any reason other than maybe if I want to bitch about it "just because".

Get into a rollover wreck with someone who's been ejected from the vehicle and killed and see if you don't change your mind on that one.

(granted, some people die from wearing one, but the ratio is so far apart that the argument isnt even valid)

newguy18

i say its about even,most accidents aren't the fault of not wearing a seat belt,its the fault of osha[again]telling car companies to make a dash board thats designed to give,fenders and a fire wall which are designed to give,and the frame in the front end is designed to give too.I say screw seat belts.

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old schooler

Therrin

Well YOU don't live with a highway patrol cop for a Dad who's been doing it for 24 years. Which means you don't get to hear all the stories when he comes home every night.

So I don't think that your whole "I think it's pretty even" statment holds much water. I think you make up statistics out of the blue to support whatever you want to say.

newguy18

Lets see,i've probabley given away more cars than you have owned,not to mention i've been working on the damn things since i was 12,i still do it for my friends[and on occasion thier friends],i've had all makes and models up to 08 apart and been all over them so i kcan say that they are making them flimsier,so the can break apart.I'm sure your dad has seen his share and then some of wrecks and totalled vehicles,no doubt there.As time moved on though,they quit making metal dashboards,installing seat belts,design break away firewalls and fenders,oh and don't forget the front end of the frame that is supposed to bend upon impact.

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Therrin

I know they're making cars CHEAPER and LIGHTER...but I dont think that they are intending to try to kill people. Maybe to bleed off some of the impact force when one vehicle strikes another, so as not to kill people.

I think that your argument has dwindled to a bunch of shit though and still does nothing for and argument against the use of seat belts.

Or, actually, doing anything to build your reputation as a decent and safe tree worker.

Oh, and we've ALL heard how many cars you've owned/sold/worked on/given away "since you were 12". Nobody cares Bill. It's getting to be like a broken record. You tell us over, and over, and over, and over, and over.

It's pretty frickin annoying dude.

Oh and this one time you were working on a dead tree cutting the top out of it and it busted and went over!!! Yeah that one too.

Garry Brockley

Bill wake up and smell the coffee get your flack jacket on cos the outlook is bumpy.
Wearing a seat belt saves lives fact
For your own and others' safety, the law requires you to use a seat belt if one is fitted.
Seat belt wearing in the front seat saves over 2,200 lives every year. Everyone knows they should wear a seat belt in the front seat, but many people still don't realise how dangerous it is not to wear a seat belt in the back.
In a crash at 30mph, if you are unrestrained, you will hit the front seat, and anyone in it, with a force of between 30 and 60 times your own body weight.
This could result in death or serious injury to you and people sitting in the front seat.
Any compensation for injury following a collision may be reduced if you were not wearing a seat belt.
Although the wearing of seat belts (front and rear) is compulsory for car drivers and passengers, the results of the April 2007 Northern Ireland Seat Belt Survey, carried out by the Department of the Environment, is encouraging show that a proportion of car occupants still do not wear seat belts. The overall wearing rate in April 2007 stood at 95% in comparison to 93% in 2006..The back seat wearing rate for children aged 1 - 4 was 96% however this figure declined to 90% for 5-9 year olds and to 92% for 10 -13 year olds. These figures show room for improvement especially in the age group of 5- 13.year olds.
During 2005 there were 6,505 casualties who were occupants of cars, cars used as taxis and light goods vehicles. These are vehicles in which seat belts are normally worn. 84 of these casualties were fatally injured. 29% of those fatally injured were not wearing a seatbelt at the time of the collision and in a further 27% of cases it was not known whether a seatbelt was in use.
(Figures taken from PSNI Road Traffic Collision Statistics Annual Report 2005)

i was a first responder in the uk for a couple of years and saw the difference between those in the car restrained and the ones that had been ejected through the windows believe me passing a body through glass at 50 mph is a mess i wouldnt wish anyone to see, i saw one person passed away restrained inside a car but if they were unrestrained we would have swept them up off the side walk, road, gardens as i have for unrestrained people so dont give me any statistics that seat belts kill people. drink drivers, speeders and tired distracted people kill people and just because your not one of them doesnt mean you are safe from them.
JAMES MADDISON UNIVERSITY
Safety Belt Statistics
One out of every five drivers will be involved in a traffic crash this year.

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death among people age 44 and younger and the number one cause of head and spinal cord injury.

Approximately 35,000 people die in motor vehicle crashes each year. About 50 percent (17,000) of these people could be saved if they wore their safety belts.

More than 90 percent of all motorists believe safety belts are good idea, but less than 14 percent actually use them.

For every one percent increase in safety belt use, 172 lives and close to $100 million in annual injury and death costs could be saved.

Safety belts when used properly reduce the number of serious traffic injuries by 50 percent and fatalities by 60-70 percent.

For maximum protection safety belts should be fastened before traveling any distance or speed. Seventy-five percent of crash deaths and injuries occur within 25 miles of home. More than half of all injury-producing motor vehicle crashes involve low speeds under 40 m.p.h.

Motorists are 25 times are more likely to be killed or seriously injured when they are "thrown clear" than when remain inside their vehicle.

In a 30 m.p.h. collision an unbelted 160 lb. Person can strike another passenger, crash through a windshield and/or slam into the vehicle's interior with a 4,800 lb. force.

Motorists can increase safety belt usage by example and verbal reminders. Nine out of 10 people buckle up when asked.

Safety belt use is one of the best defenses against the unpredictable actions of the drunk driver.

Today over 25 countries around the world have some type of mandatory safety belt law. Results of these laws were measured; usage rate went from 20-25 percent before passage to 60-90 percent after passage.

A common cause of death and injury to children in motor vehicles is being crushed by adults who are not wearing safety belts. On out of four serious injuries to passengers is caused by occupants being thrown into each other.

About 80 percent of all injuries to children in car crashes are injuries to the head, causing brain damage, permanent disfigurement, epilepsy or death.

Of every 100 children who die in motor vehicle crashes at least 80 would survive if they were properly secured in an approved child safety seat or safety belts.

Three out of four families with child safety seats fail to use them correctly. Adults need to follow manufacturer's instructions and secure seats properly before every trip.

An estimated 80 percent of American children area immunized against contagious diseases, but less than 10 percent are properly restrained when riding in a motor vehicle.
SIMPLY PUT, YOU CANNOT BEAT THE STATS EVEN IF YOU WEAR YOUR UNDERPANTS OVER YOUR TROUSERS.

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Garry Brockley

ps
Data from U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission

Facts and Figures about Chainsaw Injuries

According to the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission there were over 28,500 chain saw injuries in 1999. More than 36% were injuries to the legs and knees.
The average chainsaw injury requires 110 stitches and the average medical cost was $ 5,600.00 in 1989. Data according to The Davis Garvin Agency, an insurance underwriter specializing in loggers insurance. In year 2000 corresponding costs can be estimated to be over $12,000.00.
Medical costs for chainsaw injuries based on these facts amount to about 350 million dollars per year.
Workman's compensation costs, based on the assumption that four weeks recovery is required, can be estimated at 125 million dollars annually.
Loss of production as well as loss of quality of life for the injured can not be adequately quantified, but may in fact represent the single largest cost.
There are 69,000 professional loggers in the U.S.. The cost of equipping all of them with one pair of chainsaw chaps at approximately $75.00 each would result in a total annual expense of five million dollars.
There are few situations where safety has a more immediate payback than in the logging industry.


and that was a few years ago

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Gunslinger

Galbee presented some interesting statistics. The thing that I wonder about is why someone in an industry where they use a chainsaw wouldn't buy 75 dollars worth of protection? I know all about an employer providing employees with the proper PPE but if they didn't, why wouldn't someone buy their own?

Therrin

You're right Gunslinger, it doesn't make much sense.

I rarely EVER use chaps while climbing, for obvious reasons, but when working on the ground I almost always wear them when using a saw. Yeah, its uncomfortable, but that's what taking a gallon jug of cold water with you is for.

Anyone who's ever nicked a pair of chaps while working has a much bigger appreciation for the type of protection they afford you.

And I always carry a sealed sponge of "Quickclot" in my chaps pocket. It's like cheap personal insurance.

treejames64

It's a conspiracy. Ps..I've got about four pair in the shed I'd give you. I still wear them when I do ice storms. Otherwise I have no statistics, however I've taken way more guys to the hospitial with heat and dehydration problems than chainsaw cut.

Therrin

You should try bringing WATER to the work site, it's not the expensive, trust me. Then you could stop wasting your time driving people to the ER for conditions which are COMPLETELY unecessary.

And I'm not sure that your protective stuff will fit me, see, I'm a long size.

I guess covering a little is better than nothing though.

Garry Brockley

Im from Britain its cold and wet most of the time, i now live in Brisbane today was 31 deg and high nineties humidity and i wear stihl highflex forrest wear cat c trousers all the time when climbing i suffered dehydration for two weeks but never since i wear a camel pack and drink 3 to 4 litres of water a day, today i climbed and dismantled 7 cocus palms between 8 and 15 meters high and carried out a garden clearance to finish, basically there is no reason to not wear protection only excuses.

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Sean Freeman

This is a common (sadly) thread across all the tree fora, I side with those who scratch their heads at others who not only don't use the correct PPE correctly but who then try (unsuccessfully) to justify their choices.

newguy18

I already justified my choices,when your good,you can do whatever you want.
I have an ego the size of Florida.

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old schooler

Therrin

Bill, you sound like a total dumbass when you say shit like that.

You realize that alot of these guys have been doing this business longer than you've been alive? "good"....hah! I laugh at you, silly little man.

newguy18

I laugh at you,tall lanky man.

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old schooler

Garry Brockley

This is becoming like a monty python sketch like in the holy grail.
"I fart in your general direction you english piiig" or "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!"
jeez guys calm down.
if youve never seen the film watch it some time and enjoy the querky english humour.

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