Why dont we have a licensing system

prestigetrees

Hi all certified arborists,
im a tafe certified level 3 arborist and i run a medium size tree service in the hunter,nsw.
Ive done 20 quotes in the last month and only got about 5-6 because i was under cut by some muppet without a clue that climbs on a ladder,i have dickheads from sydney coming up the coast 2 1/2 hours to under cut everyone,why did i go through 3 years of tafe to be certified only to have this happen,why doesnt workcover step up and stop this stupidity,a guy was killed in my area last year because of this idiot under cutting everyone on a tree that was illegal to remove,
ive had enough of this and i dont think that im the only one in this case,i would gladly pay for a license if meant that all of the cowboys were put out business unless they got serious about the tree industry,
if you have had enough of this type of crap in your area please dont hesitate to reply,

kind regards
concerned arborist

Eric Frei

It's rife everywhere ... do you have the door knockers too?

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Garry Brockley

Welcome to every qualified Arbs daily nightmare and the thing that drives us all crazy every day.
this is a world wide problem that everyone on her has had a problem with throughout their career, the problem is that there is noone to run it, the organisations that are in place have a tendency to choose to favour the rich and their mates.
its an ideal world scenario that you cant climb or fell a tree without having a licience but that initself has problems, but i agree with you in so many ways

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Jeffrey Lovstrom

Seems that since you realize this, you would market your biz accordingly. We are seperate from those kind and they are not our competition.
Jeff

terry

If some of these so called dickheads are coming up from sydney 2 1/2 hours thats an 5 hour round trip you must be over quoting if they're geting the work.I have gone to tafe as well that doesn't give me the right charge what i please,you must be competitive.We were taught at tafe if we are getting 90% of quotes we are too cheap and if we are getting a low% of work we are to expensive.eg you might quote a job at 4 hours and these so called dickheads can do the work in 3 hours and under quoted you by $50 their profit margin would be greater than yours would have been.

prestigetrees

so how do you excuse the guy that was killed in my area,that must have been worth the $50 bucks less,i dont over charge if i did dont you think i wouldnt get any work at all,the only reason why they can undercut me from sydney(which is where im originally from)is because they dont have any of the overheads that i do yet alone insurance to work in the industry,i dont understand why you would be against a license,YOU WOULDNT PAY YOUR UNCERTIFIED MATE $50 LESS TO WIRE UP YOUR HOME AND RISK YOUR FAMILYS SAFETY FOR THE SAKE OF A BUCK SO WHY WOULD YOU WITH A TREE THATS OVER HANGING YOUR HOME,

YOUR COMMENTS DONT MAKE ANY SENSE,

prestigetrees

i think its the old case of money talks and bull shit walks mate,just another reason to have it in place,

prestigetrees

thank you for your support,

prestigetrees

yep they were hassling my grand parents out the other day,just another reason to push for the license,

ForTheAction

While you're right about this in so many ways, as a business owner it's business sense that is the foundation of any business not service itself i.e. arboriculture.

If I sell gummy dots to the whole world, and I'm charging enough to pay myself and the crew good wages and upkeep the gummy dot manufacturing plant, it doesn't mean that somebody else isn't going to break into the business with lower wages to pay, less expectations for personal earnings, cheaper manufacturing costs, and even the cheapest distribution. That somebody may beat me at this quasi-game, business. It's up to me to win.

I know for fact that when a law is instituted like the one you are talking about, it mainly scares most of the hacks out of the industry. It's doesn't keep them all out, but it makes the service more oriented to the few that have taken greater steps towards the professional level of service than towards the many slobs that don't have a clue or care. You should address this subject with your local representation.

I know this business formula is always going to be true no matter how superbly I understand gummy dots, trees or what ever: You'll never make it if your selling many for a lot, but you may by selling a few for a lot. You might get rich if you sell a lot for less though.

Those guys that are undercutting you don't want to sell a lot. They just want enough to get by with. They don't have the means to sell more, nor do they have the brains. You might have the means and brains to compete with them on their level. Go in selling an elite service at or near their rates, but organize so that you are selling 3x or more service per month than they do, and you'll not only take all of their business and sink many of them, but you'll make the wages that you consider acceptable for your level of expertise. That might mean you have to be more of an organizer which is a little bit beyond tree expertise.

Eric Frei

The biggest issue is that for most the area of competition is removals.

So from the customers view point, why should they pay more for the same result?

At the end of the day the tree is gone, should the customer pay $1500 for that or $900?

Now I know that there's many ways to skin a cat, and that some smash stuff (fences, sheds, plants, gutters, roofs etc), some have no safety gear etc but for most parts the client doesn't know about that until after the job when the debates occur. It's often the once bitten twice shy type of customer than accepts a higher quote but as long as the person quoting is half decent many will take the cheapest quote.

With other services like pruning of course there's more to it, and as the tree is staying it matters a lot it's done right, so another thing happens .....

• Hi, I'm after a free quote on doing whatever it is to fix my tree

You end up trapped into a consultation for free or often lose the quote if you say, "well, that's a consultation as I have to diagnose the tree and advise action" .....

Then if you do go out there and check this tree out, tell them what is wrong with it and what has to be done, leave them a bid for the work they now (not always but often) shop around to do the things you have kindly discussed and listed.

I have been on quotes for say something like a cocos palm removal, the customer then confirms that I am a Level 5 arborist and proceeds to walk me around their garden shrub by shrub and tree for advice, "since you're an arborist can you tell me what's this bug, and is this tree OK, what should I do with my grevillea etc etc". I have had to pull them up and tell them that whilst I do free quotes I do not do free consultations .... some get the shits so bad you lose the palm lopping job!

The volume of real tree care style work here is very limited, so the bulk of the competition is removals.

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ForTheAction

That's some good information, Eric.

What level of company is yours? More than one truck and chipper???

terry

it isn't only cowboys that die many qualified arborist die as well it is the nature of our work.if guys from sydney can undercut you(thats a 5hr round trip)then you're doing something wrong,your overheads might be to high or you're working to slow and so on.i'm a qulified arorist level 3 that doesn't make me any better or safer than someone who hasn't got a certificate,it comes down to safe work procedure and work ethics.there are many qulified arborist out there who are cowboys.it's like any trade it doesn't mean by paying a higher price you are getting better qulity of work.

Jeff Darby

To me Terry, it's comes over that you might not be a qualified arborist, your training did not make you any safer ? were you really listening to instruction or did you think you knew it all anyway? out of curiosity where did you study at?

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Member: Australian Tree Association

Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard !

Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

© Jeffrey J Darby 2011

Eric Frei

Maybe the guys from Sydney had to leave coz they aint NAAA members or something!

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Garry Brockley

it's most definitely not what people run it's the way they run it, i have been a subby for alot of companies over the years and some of the guys with every bit of kit you can think of are the biggest hacks you will find.
Yet ive worked for a guy with a ute and trailer that has an amazing amount of knowledge and really looks after the customer.
we can all appear to care about the outcome of a job but it takes three things in business to give the customers what they need.
are you ready.....................


Do What you say your going to do.
When you say your going to do it.
and How you say your going to do it.
I know it's a complicated formula but some people just can't work it out!

Recommendations come from satisfied customers friends and relatives, a customer will tell 7 people if they are happy with a service they will tell 27 if they are unhappy with the service.
thats human nature.
If you have a good reputation the potential customer is less effected by the price because they've already been told how good you are and they want that service for themselves.

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ForTheAction

Yeah, Galbee, that's some good wisdom. That is how I run it too, and that is why I have confidence in what I do.

There is also something in the character of the tree professional that sells customers. A guy can sound like a hack, and give a cheap quote, but they won't take him over the guy that has a professional spiel during the discussion with the customer. I get the idea that clients just like doing business with me because I put the extra effort into my presentation to them. It shows too. On the days I just don't feel up to my song and dance, I don't get those bids.

Brent Ferris

I have had Eric's problems - giving lots of advice and someone else getting the job;
I've worked Galbee's advice " What you say your going to do.
" When you say your going to do it.
and " How you say your going to do it.

I have been undercut plenty of times, but I have also gotten jobs that were higher than others, I find being honest, treating the customer fair and the way I want to be treated, noting but not boasting about education and experience and insurance claims (none) - doing a super job, and making the customer look good. All these things help to get the job.
But if the client wants a cheap price, and even with negotiating you don't want to go that low, then the other company has it. It sometimes helps to suggest to the client to ask the other company -- how the job will be done, how any damages to the property will be covered, and if they have any insurance.
BUt even so, if the client only cares about cheap work -- are you that desperate? If you are, then work for less; if you're not, let the job go -- maybe, ask when the job will be done, and go watch them. Maybe you could pick up on how job is done less safely and it will help on next bid.

The part about the climber being killed is unfortunate; but skilled and unskilled people do die in this industry. It is why the job is considered among the top 10 most dangerous occupations. But that doesn't stop people from doing a job cheaply or poorly -- most everybody figures, it will never happen to them, so they are really surprised when it does. In the meantime, there is money to be made, and since most people can't tell a good job from a cheap job, until after the fact - work this year, and find another name for next year.
Licensing won't stop that. Lots of people drive around with a suspended licence. It only matters if you get caught.

Good work, customer satisfaction, caring about the customer and their property, and making them look good - this counts for far more, than wasting time worrying about how the other company is undercutting you.

Let karma work for you; What goes around, comes around,

prestigetrees

thank god somebody see's where im coming from,thanks for the support mate.

prestigetrees

thank god i left down there way before i ever got into trees,

Eric Frei

Have you seen their agenda ..... make Reichsfuehrer Heinrich Himmler proud!

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terry

hi jayd, my training does make me work safer i learnt a lot and i wasn't the one that knew it all,i was the one that kept asking questions and eager to learn.but you could be taught by highly experienced and safety concious people in the tree industry,that doesn't meen your a cowboy because you havn't got a certificate and having a certificate doesn't meen doesn't meen you are going to work any safer,you get taught many things in life it's another thing to put them into practice.i studied at ryde with bruce and kyle.
prestigetrees is blaming everyone else but himself for being undercut,get in the real competative world.

prestigetrees

I dont know anyone that wouldnt want something like this to be in place,im not blaming anyone but the dickheads that make my profession look like im a hack like them,if it didnt affect anyone then why do they have thread on here that is titled DOB IN A DOOR KNOCKER,use your brain not your mouth,

terry

i kwno of tree workers who door knock,they may have finished a 5hr job and no time to travel to the next job,they door knock and see if they can pick up 1 or 2hrs work whats wrong with that if they are charging accordingly and doing quality work.your blaming these dickheads that make you look like a hack like they are,if they are hacks and are under quoting you they wont last long in the industry ,on the other hand you might have to rethink how you operate because by only getting 25% to 30% of your quotes you won't last in the industry either.

prestigetrees

hey terry-sorry i called you a cockhead but you know what you made me realise something now and that if i concerntrated on my business as much as this forum maybe i wouldnt be in this situation,maybe thats where i went wrong,once again sorry about the bullshit before.

terry

no worries dude you wound me up as well.thanks terry.

Eric Frei

Jeez, what next, ?

Now back to work sluggers.

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