Why don't they get it?

Treeman587 · 3rd June 2007, 07:22 AM

I see it all the time in the forums. Improper pruning. When I have a pruning job I usually research the type of tree and proper pruning before hand. Just to make sure, That and I learn a little more about each type of tree.

You do not see the sensless pruning of trees around here too much. Because for the most part we do removals. I know I know, it is better to maintain what you have. But these homeowners do not realize what they could have. The only thing they care about is green grass. They could care less for their trees.

Yesterday I removed a Bradford Pear. The land owner(rental property) asked me why it failed. The trunk split all the way below ground level. I told him these trees split all the time, They are genetically weak. I also informed him however, That if the tree had been cared for about 30 minutes every other year, this probally would not have happened.

Now his property has a bare landscape, as where before it was nicely shaded by this nice large bradford pear.

When will they learn?

Not to mention all the new neighborhoods they are building. They start with woodland and level it. Pisses me off, Where will I work in twenty years?

Do these people realize a nice landscape heightens property values?

Thanks for viewing my rant.

Eric Frei · 3rd June 2007, 08:19 AM

Here where I live there's a really wasteful attitude to trees.

In fact it was only this year the State Govt stopped the wholesale land clearing of large properties ... imagine that, it took till 2007, lots of political lobbying and video of D9 dozers with a huge fat chain between them flattening and clearing land at such a rate that made us the 6th largest landclearing fools on the planet.

In the domestic market ignorance and shoddy tree work runs rife.

The common term to call us is "tree loppers".

And the common perspective is to top trees ... "yeah get a treelopper and cut that gum tree in half mate, listen to me, I'm tellin ya, it's the safest way to go and much cheaper than taking the whole bloody thing out, plus it'll bush up nice mate."

Home-owners are as you say. Plant a tree, ignore it for 20 odd years, then when something happens butcher it or remove it.

I too explain that in comparison to their lawns they have spent nothing on the tree. A little work on your trees every year or two will have fine healthy strong and valuable trees.

Honestly, we make little difference. What can make a big difference are your local laws. They can prohibit the whole-sale removals, the trees will require permits, a reason (valid) and replacement. The media and govt over here should purge the term "tree lopper" from their literature and vocabulary, but you are talking to brick walls in most cases.

So, to change peoples attitudes you change the law. To remove the hacks you fine them heavier on every count of malpractice and have a minimum qualification level, registration and licence .... most other trades have this.

Sometimes on prune jobs, as you have seen, the customer will say, "I've had 3 other quotes and not one of them spoke about what you have and not topping the tree." But they can and do still top it.

Sean Freeman · 3rd June 2007, 08:42 AM

As you are well aware Ekka I'm in full support of developing and implementing local laws, TPO's, significant tree registers etc... But, what I do feel we need is to attack this serious misunderstanding in the wider community on many fronts, some of us need to be lobbying TV producers of these ubiquitous hoome improvement shows to have a qualified Arborist envolved to advise them on how to present proper tree care options and all the benefits that we know result form that to the audience, rather than the rubbish that just compounds the mistaken attitudes out there, or rather out here!

Even the ABC's show gardening Australia has only had a couple of Arborists on in the past four/five years (that I know of) Now they may have highly qualified Hort people, I'm sure they do, but the message on PHC for trees is not getting through. Trees dominate nearly all landscapes that any of us will encounter, have massive role in all the biocycles that are so much in the press these days..water/carbon/nitrogen etc...In fact with the curent vogue for climate change seems like a good concept for a show about individuals impact on the wider environment grow and look after more trees I read much on the multimillion $$'s search for methods of carbon sequestration when the only proven device to take carbon from the atmosphere and lock it away for 100's even 1000's of years is...........yes I know you know but do they??? A TREE

If we had just one TV show display the difference between lopping and pruning, topping and reduction and develop the debate from there imagine the fall out all on the hacks, and those who have been selling this crap to the public for the last 20yrs when all the evidence easily available has been shouting don't They have no doubt ducked the isue not wanting to label specific companies liable etc... But they wouldn't have to, actually do the cutting on the show on sample trees and talk about the impacts the likely results over time etc..me I think it wold not only work be interesting to watch but done with the right presenters and linked to all the other info banging around about climate change eneregy/water downturns man it could be a real ratings giant!!

But hey that's just what I think...

clementine · 3rd June 2007, 10:49 AM

Yo guys,

Give us a break, we cannot know all there is to know about trees, even if it was our trade.
We all know that we can take care of our vehicles and if we followed the manual, who would ever need a mechanic?
If we all knew enough about trees to do the maintenance ourselves, then who'd need you lot.
It's a this is my job, that's your job kind a thing!
Ya know what I'm saying

Eric Frei · 3rd June 2007, 03:58 PM

Boa for ABC, Boa for ABC goes the chant.

Clementine, it's not so much the home-owner or their shrubs and fruit trees that's the issue.

There's also debate as to when is a tree a tree and not a shrub or hedge etc.

I think Shigo said words to the effect of, "if it can fall on you and kill you, then it's a tree".

Yes, if you know how to repair your car, go right ahead.

If you know how to care for your trees and do everything proper, just like using a mechanic, you may use us still coz you need the gear, the skill, etc... not every ones going 30' up on ropes with chainsaws and rigging down a branch over a glass house.

With larger trees protected, generally of a girth greater than say 300mm, the focus is on correct tree care. What regs do is try to make who-ever does the work, whether that be you or the arborist, do it properly.

What the problem is, is when the customer gets an arborist and the arborist does the wrong thing. Just like the mechanic manual for the car, the tree cutting one has been out since 1996 here and look at what's happening.

Clementine, you are already way out of the norm, you are here at TreeWorld and seeking information, assessing good from bad and making informed choices. However, many aren't like you, and despite getting the right information many choose the poorer job.

What my recent threads on this topic illustrate is perfect examples of how things go wrong, and sadly, once done it's hard to fix if ever it will be.

JohN Dee · 3rd June 2007, 10:40 PM

Boa for ABC! An arb spot on Burkes Backyard, Better homes and gardens or 9am would work wonders!

Boa, I have been saying exactly what you posted for the last 2 years. This country's tree awareness is so damn low, it's not funny. It's very suprising when my teachers say to me: "The consumers are going to ask for your insurance details", when the actual truth is for the very first time, out of hundreds of customers I have serviced in the last two years, the VERY FIRST ONE that ever asked me for my policy number was just last week!

Sean Freeman · 4th June 2007, 12:24 AM

Look this is a possibility what we need is the ear of a program producer or the like....amongst all the tree guys here in Oz one of us has to have brushed shoulders with such professionals, it is not going to happen quickly but with commitment in a year or year and a half, I really think it can be done. What we have to offer is a perspective on tree care that most in the general public are quite unaware of, but when concepts are explained it intuatively makes sense to most who hear it. It doesn't have to be limited soley to trees, could be part of a much broader approach to what we can as individuals do to improve our local environment, our gardens streets parks etc...

Like I originally said it takes many different anglews of attack to make progress, to turn around the crazy state of affairs that exists at the moment, no one approach can do it I think. Provide people with quality info and the majority will be with us, there will be always some who deny facts and hold to their right to pursue what they hold to be truth or whatever you want to call it, and thats fine. The majority of people will get the message and use it as they can

...when joe lop comes to the door they won't be disarmed by the sales pitch but rather have their own come back..oh yeah you're wanting to butcher my tree because its quick and easy for you, rather than offer me proper tree management options, you're obviously not qualified and don't really know much about the tree, or any tree...I saw about this on the telly the other night...

Arboriculture should not be some mystery only for the big companies, rich or "tree huggers" it should be at one level widely understood to the point where hacks have to be honest about just what it is they're selling, cause it sure ain't tree care. Time was when most homeowners didn't know what compost was or how it was made, now I'm not saying that everyone can build a really effective compost heap, but at least the numbers that have no idea what it is and why it is important in their gardens is much less than 10yrs ago. Thats the kind of change I think the telly could produce for us in relation to Arboriculture, tree care and lopping.

TrevMcRev · 4th June 2007, 09:13 AM

We've done work for Backyard Blitz. I have the contact details of the producer. However that show is off air for the moment, so i dont know if it would be any help, but they must have contacts in the right places.

This sort of publicity will do more for educating the public than any ISA brochures ever will.

Eric Frei · 4th June 2007, 09:25 AM

Hear yee hear yee

!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND STOP CALLING US TREE LOPPERS!!!!!!!!!!!

Drouin Tree Service · 4th June 2007, 06:24 PM

Or go the current affair angle!!!that WOULD be fun!

TrevMcRev · 4th June 2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_lopa

Or go the current affair angle!!!that WOULD be fun!

Dont take this the wrong way but....

The shit those shows have been running lately i wouldnt be suprised if theyd go for it!

Ekka i reckon with whats goin on up there, where council seems as bad as anyone and with the timing of other media attention around green issues maybe just maybe the tree issue could get a run.

Drouin Tree Service · 4th June 2007, 08:07 PM

I think it would get a run especially exposing council and a hack.

3rd June 2007, 07:22 AM	#1
Treeman587 Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chesapeake, VA Posts: 7	Why don't they get it? I see it all the time in the forums. Improper pruning. When I have a pruning job I usually research the type of tree and proper pruning before hand. Just to make sure, That and I learn a little more about each type of tree. You do not see the sensless pruning of trees around here too much. Because for the most part we do removals. I know I know, it is better to maintain what you have. But these homeowners do not realize what they could have. The only thing they care about is green grass. They could care less for their trees. Yesterday I removed a Bradford Pear. The land owner(rental property) asked me why it failed. The trunk split all the way below ground level. I told him these trees split all the time, They are genetically weak. I also informed him however, That if the tree had been cared for about 30 minutes every other year, this probally would not have happened. Now his property has a bare landscape, as where before it was nicely shaded by this nice large bradford pear. When will they learn? Not to mention all the new neighborhoods they are building. They start with woodland and level it. Pisses me off, Where will I work in twenty years? Do these people realize a nice landscape heightens property values? Thanks for viewing my rant.

3rd June 2007, 08:19 AM	#2
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,996	Here where I live there's a really wasteful attitude to trees. In fact it was only this year the State Govt stopped the wholesale land clearing of large properties ... imagine that, it took till 2007, lots of political lobbying and video of D9 dozers with a huge fat chain between them flattening and clearing land at such a rate that made us the 6th largest landclearing fools on the planet. In the domestic market ignorance and shoddy tree work runs rife. The common term to call us is "tree loppers". And the common perspective is to top trees ... "yeah get a treelopper and cut that gum tree in half mate, listen to me, I'm tellin ya, it's the safest way to go and much cheaper than taking the whole bloody thing out, plus it'll bush up nice mate." Home-owners are as you say. Plant a tree, ignore it for 20 odd years, then when something happens butcher it or remove it. I too explain that in comparison to their lawns they have spent nothing on the tree. A little work on your trees every year or two will have fine healthy strong and valuable trees. Honestly, we make little difference. What can make a big difference are your local laws. They can prohibit the whole-sale removals, the trees will require permits, a reason (valid) and replacement. The media and govt over here should purge the term "tree lopper" from their literature and vocabulary, but you are talking to brick walls in most cases. So, to change peoples attitudes you change the law. To remove the hacks you fine them heavier on every count of malpractice and have a minimum qualification level, registration and licence .... most other trades have this. Sometimes on prune jobs, as you have seen, the customer will say, "I've had 3 other quotes and not one of them spoke about what you have and not topping the tree." But they can and do still top it. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

3rd June 2007, 10:49 AM	#4
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 507	Yo guys, Give us a break, we cannot know all there is to know about trees, even if it was our trade. We all know that we can take care of our vehicles and if we followed the manual, who would ever need a mechanic? If we all knew enough about trees to do the maintenance ourselves, then who'd need you lot. It's a this is my job, that's your job kind a thing! Ya know what I'm saying __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

3rd June 2007, 03:58 PM	#5
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,996	Boa for ABC, Boa for ABC goes the chant. Clementine, it's not so much the home-owner or their shrubs and fruit trees that's the issue. There's also debate as to when is a tree a tree and not a shrub or hedge etc. I think Shigo said words to the effect of, "if it can fall on you and kill you, then it's a tree". Yes, if you know how to repair your car, go right ahead. If you know how to care for your trees and do everything proper, just like using a mechanic, you may use us still coz you need the gear, the skill, etc... not every ones going 30' up on ropes with chainsaws and rigging down a branch over a glass house. With larger trees protected, generally of a girth greater than say 300mm, the focus is on correct tree care. What regs do is try to make who-ever does the work, whether that be you or the arborist, do it properly. What the problem is, is when the customer gets an arborist and the arborist does the wrong thing. Just like the mechanic manual for the car, the tree cutting one has been out since 1996 here and look at what's happening. Clementine, you are already way out of the norm, you are here at TreeWorld and seeking information, assessing good from bad and making informed choices. However, many aren't like you, and despite getting the right information many choose the poorer job. What my recent threads on this topic illustrate is perfect examples of how things go wrong, and sadly, once done it's hard to fix if ever it will be. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

3rd June 2007, 10:40 PM	#6
JohN Dee Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Climbing around the world Posts: 848	Boa for ABC! An arb spot on Burkes Backyard, Better homes and gardens or 9am would work wonders! Boa, I have been saying exactly what you posted for the last 2 years. This country's tree awareness is so damn low, it's not funny. It's very suprising when my teachers say to me: "The consumers are going to ask for your insurance details", when the actual truth is for the very first time, out of hundreds of customers I have serviced in the last two years, the VERY FIRST ONE that ever asked me for my policy number was just last week! __________________ We are what we repeatedly do... Excellence then, is not an act, but HABIT... Red : Green : Blue

3rd June 2007, 08:42 AM	#3
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	As you are well aware Ekka I'm in full support of developing and implementing local laws, TPO's, significant tree registers etc... But, what I do feel we need is to attack this serious misunderstanding in the wider community on many fronts, some of us need to be lobbying TV producers of these ubiquitous hoome improvement shows to have a qualified Arborist envolved to advise them on how to present proper tree care options and all the benefits that we know result form that to the audience, rather than the rubbish that just compounds the mistaken attitudes out there, or rather out here! Even the ABC's show gardening Australia has only had a couple of Arborists on in the past four/five years (that I know of) Now they may have highly qualified Hort people, I'm sure they do, but the message on PHC for trees is not getting through. Trees dominate nearly all landscapes that any of us will encounter, have massive role in all the biocycles that are so much in the press these days..water/carbon/nitrogen etc...In fact with the curent vogue for climate change seems like a good concept for a show about individuals impact on the wider environment grow and look after more trees I read much on the multimillion $$'s search for methods of carbon sequestration when the only proven device to take carbon from the atmosphere and lock it away for 100's even 1000's of years is...........yes I know you know but do they??? A TREE If we had just one TV show display the difference between lopping and pruning, topping and reduction and develop the debate from there imagine the fall out all on the hacks, and those who have been selling this crap to the public for the last 20yrs when all the evidence easily available has been shouting don't They have no doubt ducked the isue not wanting to label specific companies liable etc... But they wouldn't have to, actually do the cutting on the show on sample trees and talk about the impacts the likely results over time etc..me I think it wold not only work be interesting to watch but done with the right presenters and linked to all the other info banging around about climate change eneregy/water downturns man it could be a real ratings giant!! But hey that's just what I think...

4th June 2007, 12:24 AM	#7
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	Look this is a possibility what we need is the ear of a program producer or the like....amongst all the tree guys here in Oz one of us has to have brushed shoulders with such professionals, it is not going to happen quickly but with commitment in a year or year and a half, I really think it can be done. What we have to offer is a perspective on tree care that most in the general public are quite unaware of, but when concepts are explained it intuatively makes sense to most who hear it. It doesn't have to be limited soley to trees, could be part of a much broader approach to what we can as individuals do to improve our local environment, our gardens streets parks etc... Like I originally said it takes many different anglews of attack to make progress, to turn around the crazy state of affairs that exists at the moment, no one approach can do it I think. Provide people with quality info and the majority will be with us, there will be always some who deny facts and hold to their right to pursue what they hold to be truth or whatever you want to call it, and thats fine. The majority of people will get the message and use it as they can ...when joe lop comes to the door they won't be disarmed by the sales pitch but rather have their own come back..oh yeah you're wanting to butcher my tree because its quick and easy for you, rather than offer me proper tree management options, you're obviously not qualified and don't really know much about the tree, or any tree...I saw about this on the telly the other night... Arboriculture should not be some mystery only for the big companies, rich or "tree huggers" it should be at one level widely understood to the point where hacks have to be honest about just what it is they're selling, cause it sure ain't tree care. Time was when most homeowners didn't know what compost was or how it was made, now I'm not saying that everyone can build a really effective compost heap, but at least the numbers that have no idea what it is and why it is important in their gardens is much less than 10yrs ago. Thats the kind of change I think the telly could produce for us in relation to Arboriculture, tree care and lopping.

4th June 2007, 09:13 AM	#8
TrevMcRev Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,594	We've done work for Backyard Blitz. I have the contact details of the producer. However that show is off air for the moment, so i dont know if it would be any help, but they must have contacts in the right places. This sort of publicity will do more for educating the public than any ISA brochures ever will.

4th June 2007, 09:25 AM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,996	Hear yee hear yee !!!!!!!!!!!!!AND STOP CALLING US TREE LOPPERS!!!!!!!!!!! __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

4th June 2007, 06:24 PM	#10
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,728	Or go the current affair angle!!!that WOULD be fun! __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

4th June 2007, 08:07 PM	#12
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,728	I think it would get a run especially exposing council and a hack. __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

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