Why do we cut each others throats?

Ekka · 12th February 2007, 07:56 PM

You know.

When you need to get an electrician or plumber etc you might open up a directory of some sorts and start looking through the list of ads.

Doesn't take long before you notice something. They're not giving away much if anything. Rare to see a pensioner discount or free drain clean etc. Their USP (unique selling proposition) is how fast they can get to you or their specialist leak detection equipment etc.

So you pick up the phone and ring a few. Before you know it another pattern emerges. They're all around the same price per hour and call out fee. I have found this with machinery, crane and tower operators too.

Yet in our industry you'll see this every second ad ...

* Free stump grind
* Free quote
* Free advice
* Free safety inspection
* Pensioner Discounts
* Pay less pay cash
* Free tree assessment by qualified arborist

Around these parts it's @$80 to get a tradie out, yet we would drive a ute or truck with a 2 tonne load and some $50K of machinery to Mr Citizens house, cut a stump off, dump it and grind a hole for less?????

My take on it is that we're in a race to the bottom. You buy a new piece of machinery or educate a new skill and give it away?

Sure you have the argument that rather than say it's $900 for the tree and $100 for the stump we'll do it for $1000 and throw the stump in free. It's not really free but the customer thinks it is.

With being pressured to go in cheap you will have to cut corners to get out fast, take more risk, chunk out big, drop that log on the driveway and hope it doesn't crack.

I was doing a bid the other day and in the backyard of the house guesstimating the drop on a washy palm explaining to the customer how we will do the job etc. Another tree guy rocks up at the same time walks straight around the back. I asked him to wait his turn and he just grinned and started to write his bid out. All up 30secs tears off a piece of paper and hands it to the customer.

He never checked the retaining wall, steps, side access nothing. Never spoke with the customer about the pergola, the new garden or what was happening with the pergola.

I commented to the customer that they have a real lot to look at on that bid .... just the price. I never got the job so he might have low balled it. I just wonder if it were a house repaint would a bid and conduct like that be acceptable.

And if all you leave the customer with is the price then that's about all they'll make their decision on ... and hopefully the more you give away free the more work you'll get.

justoon · 12th February 2007, 08:36 PM

Only because some people dont know how to formulate a charge rate based on the equipment that is used or properly assess the risks/hazards involved and properly estimate the time frame to do it.Dont worry Ekka majority of throat cutters disappear after a period of time.

Sean Freeman · 12th February 2007, 09:03 PM

You're right justoon they will fade away after a while, but they create a market place whilst they're around that is impossible to survive in financially whilst they are working for peanuts, plus the corners they cut are the corners they expect their workers to cut and that just is wrong in so many ways

I just wish WH&S would go through some of these businesses they don't even follow the most basic risk management protocols, I'm totally amazed noone's been killed up here when you see how they conduct their jobs

SF

JayD · 12th February 2007, 09:07 PM

Hi All,
This annoys me as well,every other trade, that's the price mate, and it doesn't change it's seems the word is out play these tree bloke's off against each other,once we realise this happening we walk!. We submit a competitive quote take into consideration all the usual stuff,but if you cant make a buck on your job stay in bed..let some other clown work for nothing.they usually stuff up/burn out when they do their sums..and what seemed like good money is really crumbs,the hard part is surviving these times.This bloke needs a good slapp'n for being so rude that would have p###sd me off!

mdvaden · 12th February 2007, 09:23 PM

A good arborist friend and myself, used to advertise together. One of the first things we agreed on was not go offer anything free in the advertisments.

Except, possibly, estimates.

That's a cultural thing in our area.

I don't offer every estimate for free.

The worst of the free offers in Oregon - by just a few - is some landscape contractors who offer a free landscape design if the people decide to go with their company.

That has to be one of the dumbest decisions someone could ever make (not knowing the designer, the complexity of the plan, or the final cost).

Ekka · 12th February 2007, 10:30 PM

True story.

Do a quote. 2 cocos in the front yard, both decent size, one is between two service wire drops must be blocked down to under the wires, the second is a drop. Stump grind these two.

Backyard, on hillside, steps to pool area. Decking around pool, 4 cocos medium size ... you have to carry out, all climbs.

So we got 6 total and two stump grinds and for the back crap access. I quote $1000.

Few days later customer rings, got 3 other quotes making total of 4 quotes. Says I'm the dearest and the others quoted 900, 800 and 600 ... the $600 one was a islander door knocker. Asks me to give her a better price for the job so I said $850 reluctantly ... books in for the coming Monday and this was a Friday conversation.

Rings up Friday night and cancels, says got some-one else much cheaper.

How much cheaper I ask and she says "a lot". So, I'd say the $600 islander.

Now for the life of me 6 bugger palms and two stump grinds ... that's just mad, but what do we know .... those fellas are all for cash, prolly getting the dole and in housing commission. Who cares? No-one. So what happens, more islanders doorknocking. Is it illegal? No. Is there complaints and rip offs? Yes, Dept of fair trading puts out a warning ... but who cares, this is money saved.

And they have bigger families than Aussies.

a_lopa · 12th February 2007, 11:27 PM

I can think back 12-13 years ago all the line clearing contractors got together around my way and set some basic prices as the power companys were screwing everyone.Everyone agreed in the meeting,but the next week most contractors were putting there prices in a little cheaper than the agreed prices.

One things for sure working cheap is a receipe for disaster.

Sean Freeman · 12th February 2007, 11:42 PM

Ekka, all we can do is keep chipping away. Mr & Mrs public are always going to be able to give their hard earned to whomever they wish, and too often that means the cheapest in our industry.
We have to keep knocking heads with the powers that be to get a code of practice in our state, to get some recognition that lopping, chopping, topping, hatracking or whatever you want to call it, is not acceptable practice.

There are standards even for felling and so called companies that choose to ignore them should not be allowed to put everyone at risk by their actions.

One simple eg that I know you're only too familiar with every time there's a bad storm and trees blow over we get some SES or other emergency official standing in front of a windthrown tree telling us all how hazardous trees can be when its blatantly obvious to everyone with the slightest bit of tree bio that tree - root plate = windthrow, and tree + lopping = blow out of epicormics.

Maybe the insurance companies are the way to go, when they finally wake up to the fact that 70-80% of the claims they pay out on re tree damage relates to trees that have been damaged by deliberate actions..then maybe we'll see some changes in who private property owners want to work on their trees.

SF

a_lopa · 13th February 2007, 01:37 AM

Thats a good point boa re insurance companys,i have a client who runs a large insurance agency in melbourne ill have a chat with him and get some of his veiws,a good starting point surely would be insurance claims not acepted due to poor workmanship.

13th February 2007, 10:22 AM

All you can do is stand your ground. You offer what I would assume to be an exceptional service, good, safe, clean work. Make it clear to your customers what you are offering. Let them know that prices are lower because they cut corners, and they are taking a risk by hiring people who aren't nessicarily as good. But on the same note, be careful of what you say, if you start saying how much better you are than everyone in town, you will make enimies really quick, and nobody wants that. Point is, you are an excelent service that people should want. Be sure and let customers know why they are paying the extra money. If you let them know and they still go with the cheap estimate, then they can spend the couple hundred they saved to fix their fence that the tree fell on. After a few customers like that, people will start to understand.

Roller · 13th February 2007, 11:54 AM

you'll never beat low ballers full stop,and DO NOT think for a minute they just disappear,it has been my experience they stay around with their beaten up crap equipment and druggie staff for years and years.

What tends to happen is the more professional company's simply find another market or leave the profession

Ekka · 13th February 2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller

you'll never beat low ballers full stop,and DO NOT think for a minute they just disappear,it has been my experience they stay around with their beaten up crap equipment and druggie staff for years and years.

What tends to happen is the more professional company's simply find another market or leave the profession

My sentiments exactly. There's one avenue left though. Up skill to report writing and consulting if you can and hopefully that market is unavailable to the hacks coz they haven't got the paperwork. After 10 years in business I can say there's at least 3X more competitors and we are still doing trees for the same prices yet the costs have doubled.

The larger companies have shrunk their crews, go cheap on jobs to get the work in, dropped down to one crew etc.

Why is it that the Govt regulates the number of Taxi's in a city, there's only so many hence the $450K+ for a plate in Sydney and $300K in Brisbane yet there can be thousands of hacks combing the streets? Why are there only so many chemists and news agencies? Seems to me that this industry is seen as an unskilled safety net profession ... cant get a job then mow lawns or cut trees, any idiot can do that! And I'm serious about the idiots.

About 1.5 years ago when Brother Colin was working with me he brought a little newspaper clipping in from page 8 of our main paper ... "tree lopper dies in accident" not much written no radio/TV on it etc. Even dead tree workers are no news.

As it ends up about 2 months ago I did a repeat job for the neighbour of where that accident was and that guy was killed. I got the whole story. The neighbour had a "legend mate" as all Queenslander's have these great legend know it all mates from the bush come from Kingaroy region to do his tree coz he wasn't paying no professional tree company 1000's to do an idiots job right? The farmer legend mate had to climb up the gum tree and fell/rope sections out.

Fact is he felled a leaning leader out, what remained sprung a bit, he dropped the saw which landed on the ground (no lanyard) and fell backward into a really tight fork (no ropes/harness) killing him pretty much straight away as it broke his back backwards and jammed his organs. They had to cut him out of the tree.

Yep, saved a few bucks, ya legend mates dead, and the show carries on like it never happened.

justoon · 15th February 2007, 02:56 PM

Boa perhaps it is time to start making noises to the powers that be about industry standards.Every other industry has a big brother to make sure the saftey and indusrty standards are being met. why not ours.Espeacially when the new draft is to be implimented shortly.

Sean Freeman · 16th February 2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justoon

Boa perhaps it is time to start making noises to the powers that be about industry standards.Every other industry has a big brother to make sure the saftey and indusrty standards are being met. why not ours.Espeacially when the new draft is to be implimented shortly.

Yes, its actually way past that time!

It is down to each of us to make that noise, if you're a member of a professional or industrial organisation in Queensland write to them expressing your concerns about the total lack of established industry standards in our state 9 years after the other states established theirs.

I'll raise this in other threads and I know that we're just starting in this forum so I'll raise it again and again over time.

For you guys in other states and OS let us know what you think of the codes of practice and standards you have...are they making a difference, or not.

JayD you're from Western Sydney, NSW have a code of practice and Parramatta CC have quite strict regulations re pruning and removal of trees over 5m high...do think it makes any difference at all?

We need to share the expriences and ideas from all over to improve what is quite evidently an unsatisfactory situation, particularly for us here in Qld. But it no good expecting others to do all the work for us, we are going to have to make it clear, again and again, that the current state of affairs in our State is not good enough,

worse it breaks the statute laws (the 96' WH&S Act for one) which were inshrined precisely to protect people from injury and harm.

There are so many angles to attack this from and so many allies to be found in many different areas...just because it has happened yet, and because it seems a difficult task don't be disheartened...just remember the American safety standards ANSI, relating to tree work, came about in large part because of the unflinching determination of one mother, appauled by the tragic death of her son, deciding that the lack of adequate standards of safety was not acceptable.

SF

JayD · 20th February 2007, 01:15 PM

Hi boa07,
Most folk look at you strangly when you ask to see their council aproval,some ask could you do it with out it

we tell them about how much the fine is and also point out if you have any grievences with your extended neighbours they will drop a coin on you, then we go about telling how to get their work aproval, lately i've noticed amoungst the hack jobs that some good pruning starting to be done which is good to see, I know that the powers that be, are working on a safe code of practice now and will into the future,just to keep our industry regulated by folk who understand it..could you imagine someone who has only desk experience and no actual tree work experience setting the standard, I think we all know the proper standards need to meet somewhere in the middle,between written text and hands on experience....whether it's making a differance is yet to be seen.

Underwor · 6th March 2007, 12:28 PM

Old Abe Lincoln once said something to the effect of :

"I can't be concerned that the man down the street charges less. I must trust that he knows better than I the value of his goods and services."

12th February 2007, 07:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,694	Why do we cut each others throats? You know. When you need to get an electrician or plumber etc you might open up a directory of some sorts and start looking through the list of ads. Doesn't take long before you notice something. They're not giving away much if anything. Rare to see a pensioner discount or free drain clean etc. Their USP (unique selling proposition) is how fast they can get to you or their specialist leak detection equipment etc. So you pick up the phone and ring a few. Before you know it another pattern emerges. They're all around the same price per hour and call out fee. I have found this with machinery, crane and tower operators too. Yet in our industry you'll see this every second ad ... * Free stump grind * Free quote * Free advice * Free safety inspection * Pensioner Discounts * Pay less pay cash * Free tree assessment by qualified arborist Around these parts it's @$80 to get a tradie out, yet we would drive a ute or truck with a 2 tonne load and some $50K of machinery to Mr Citizens house, cut a stump off, dump it and grind a hole for less????? My take on it is that we're in a race to the bottom. You buy a new piece of machinery or educate a new skill and give it away? Sure you have the argument that rather than say it's $900 for the tree and $100 for the stump we'll do it for $1000 and throw the stump in free. It's not really free but the customer thinks it is. With being pressured to go in cheap you will have to cut corners to get out fast, take more risk, chunk out big, drop that log on the driveway and hope it doesn't crack. I was doing a bid the other day and in the backyard of the house guesstimating the drop on a washy palm explaining to the customer how we will do the job etc. Another tree guy rocks up at the same time walks straight around the back. I asked him to wait his turn and he just grinned and started to write his bid out. All up 30secs tears off a piece of paper and hands it to the customer. He never checked the retaining wall, steps, side access nothing. Never spoke with the customer about the pergola, the new garden or what was happening with the pergola. I commented to the customer that they have a real lot to look at on that bid .... just the price. I never got the job so he might have low balled it. I just wonder if it were a house repaint would a bid and conduct like that be acceptable. And if all you leave the customer with is the price then that's about all they'll make their decision on ... and hopefully the more you give away free the more work you'll get. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

12th February 2007, 09:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 995	??but it happens all to often! Hi All, This annoys me as well,every other trade, that's the price mate, and it doesn't change it's seems the word is out play these tree bloke's off against each other,once we realise this happening we walk!. We submit a competitive quote take into consideration all the usual stuff,but if you cant make a buck on your job stay in bed..let some other clown work for nothing.they usually stuff up/burn out when they do their sums..and what seemed like good money is really crumbs,the hard part is surviving these times.This bloke needs a good slapp'n for being so rude that would have p###sd me off!

12th February 2007, 09:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 531	A good arborist friend and myself, used to advertise together. One of the first things we agreed on was not go offer anything free in the advertisments. Except, possibly, estimates. That's a cultural thing in our area. I don't offer every estimate for free. The worst of the free offers in Oregon - by just a few - is some landscape contractors who offer a free landscape design if the people decide to go with their company. That has to be one of the dumbest decisions someone could ever make (not knowing the designer, the complexity of the plan, or the final cost). __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

12th February 2007, 10:30 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,694	True story. Do a quote. 2 cocos in the front yard, both decent size, one is between two service wire drops must be blocked down to under the wires, the second is a drop. Stump grind these two. Backyard, on hillside, steps to pool area. Decking around pool, 4 cocos medium size ... you have to carry out, all climbs. So we got 6 total and two stump grinds and for the back crap access. I quote $1000. Few days later customer rings, got 3 other quotes making total of 4 quotes. Says I'm the dearest and the others quoted 900, 800 and 600 ... the $600 one was a islander door knocker. Asks me to give her a better price for the job so I said $850 reluctantly ... books in for the coming Monday and this was a Friday conversation. Rings up Friday night and cancels, says got some-one else much cheaper. How much cheaper I ask and she says "a lot". So, I'd say the $600 islander. Now for the life of me 6 bugger palms and two stump grinds ... that's just mad, but what do we know .... those fellas are all for cash, prolly getting the dole and in housing commission. Who cares? No-one. So what happens, more islanders doorknocking. Is it illegal? No. Is there complaints and rip offs? Yes, Dept of fair trading puts out a warning ... but who cares, this is money saved. And they have bigger families than Aussies. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

12th February 2007, 11:27 PM	#7 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 919	I can think back 12-13 years ago all the line clearing contractors got together around my way and set some basic prices as the power companys were screwing everyone.Everyone agreed in the meeting,but the next week most contractors were putting there prices in a little cheaper than the agreed prices. One things for sure working cheap is a receipe for disaster. __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory

12th February 2007, 08:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 63	Only because some people dont know how to formulate a charge rate based on the equipment that is used or properly assess the risks/hazards involved and properly estimate the time frame to do it.Dont worry Ekka majority of throat cutters disappear after a period of time.

12th February 2007, 09:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,733	You're right justoon they will fade away after a while, but they create a market place whilst they're around that is impossible to survive in financially whilst they are working for peanuts, plus the corners they cut are the corners they expect their workers to cut and that just is wrong in so many ways I just wish WH&S would go through some of these businesses they don't even follow the most basic risk management protocols, I'm totally amazed noone's been killed up here when you see how they conduct their jobs SF

12th February 2007, 11:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,733	Ekka, all we can do is keep chipping away. Mr & Mrs public are always going to be able to give their hard earned to whomever they wish, and too often that means the cheapest in our industry. We have to keep knocking heads with the powers that be to get a code of practice in our state, to get some recognition that lopping, chopping, topping, hatracking or whatever you want to call it, is not acceptable practice. There are standards even for felling and so called companies that choose to ignore them should not be allowed to put everyone at risk by their actions. One simple eg that I know you're only too familiar with every time there's a bad storm and trees blow over we get some SES or other emergency official standing in front of a windthrown tree telling us all how hazardous trees can be when its blatantly obvious to everyone with the slightest bit of tree bio that tree - root plate = windthrow, and tree + lopping = blow out of epicormics. Maybe the insurance companies are the way to go, when they finally wake up to the fact that 70-80% of the claims they pay out on re tree damage relates to trees that have been damaged by deliberate actions..then maybe we'll see some changes in who private property owners want to work on their trees. SF

13th February 2007, 01:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 919	Thats a good point boa re insurance companys,i have a client who runs a large insurance agency in melbourne ill have a chat with him and get some of his veiws,a good starting point surely would be insurance claims not acepted due to poor workmanship. __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory

13th February 2007, 10:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
fastlil1 Posts: n/a	All you can do is stand your ground. You offer what I would assume to be an exceptional service, good, safe, clean work. Make it clear to your customers what you are offering. Let them know that prices are lower because they cut corners, and they are taking a risk by hiring people who aren't nessicarily as good. But on the same note, be careful of what you say, if you start saying how much better you are than everyone in town, you will make enimies really quick, and nobody wants that. Point is, you are an excelent service that people should want. Be sure and let customers know why they are paying the extra money. If you let them know and they still go with the cheap estimate, then they can spend the couple hundred they saved to fix their fence that the tree fell on. After a few customers like that, people will start to understand.

13th February 2007, 11:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 222	you'll never beat low ballers full stop,and DO NOT think for a minute they just disappear,it has been my experience they stay around with their beaten up crap equipment and druggie staff for years and years. What tends to happen is the more professional company's simply find another market or leave the profession

15th February 2007, 02:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 63	Boa perhaps it is time to start making noises to the powers that be about industry standards.Every other industry has a big brother to make sure the saftey and indusrty standards are being met. why not ours.Espeacially when the new draft is to be implimented shortly.

20th February 2007, 01:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
JayD Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 995	Hi boa07, Most folk look at you strangly when you ask to see their council aproval,some ask could you do it with out it we tell them about how much the fine is and also point out if you have any grievences with your extended neighbours they will drop a coin on you, then we go about telling how to get their work aproval, lately i've noticed amoungst the hack jobs that some good pruning starting to be done which is good to see, I know that the powers that be, are working on a safe code of practice now and will into the future,just to keep our industry regulated by folk who understand it..could you imagine someone who has only desk experience and no actual tree work experience setting the standard, I think we all know the proper standards need to meet somewhere in the middle,between written text and hands on experience....whether it's making a differance is yet to be seen. Last edited by JayD : 20th February 2007 at 03:40 PM.

6th March 2007, 12:28 PM	#16 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Old Abe Lincoln once said something to the effect of : "I can't be concerned that the man down the street charges less. I must trust that he knows better than I the value of his goods and services." __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota