What is a tree worth

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 11:51 AM

Ok So I have recently joined this forum and have seen alot of different sides and opinions. Had a share of arguments as well

It's all good. So I thought I would throw this one out there as a free for all on a report that I recently wrote that adds another perspective. I will give some photos and an excerpt of my conclusion which was unorthodox report writing due in part because of the circumstances. These are significant wildlife trees and have rare fauna that reside within them. Certain models borrowed from colleagues place their estimated value at $150 000 each. I have only supplied pics of one as the other is the same.
The question is would you retain them??
If you feel you need more info ask.

Conclusion

These two trees fail any assessment for a hazardous tree evaluation. As such the best recommendation would be for removal. There is a need however to consider the overall value that these trees have on the surrounds in terms of wildlife. No other trees within a great distance have the same requirements for habitat. There are measures that could be taken to preserve these trees however the cost would be significant and a great area would be needed to make an exclusion zone because of potential hazard.

A turn around area is proposed at the base of these trees only adding to soil compaction and potential targets from limb failure. Limb failure devices could possibly be placed within these trees but that is an admission of the trees susceptibility to fail.

With the information given it is left to decide, is the cost of retention greater than the inherent value of the trees and at what cost might a target being struck by a failed limb or tree be.

These points are brought up simply because it is obvious the significant nature of the trees however it is beyond my field to say more than they are extremely dangerous however could be retained for an exorbitant sum.

azrael · 27th January 2008, 01:14 PM

IMO...it IS our role as Consultant Arborists to highlight the ecological values of trees as much as their amenity value and everything else.

These sorts of relic trees are seldom seen in urban areas....and if they have extra-ordinary spatial demands (which they usually do) then we must provide that information for the CORRECT decisions to be made about their fate.

Always remember who the reader is....and that they are not tree specialists....that is why you are commissioned to as Consultant Arborist Report...Other Consultants do not always not look outside their own square unless.... it is put right in front of them.

I've had occasions, in discussing tree issues where the other party has not even visited the site.

TRUE.

You've done an excellent job on the Conclusions.

The answer IMO (& based on the info provided)
... desirable to interim retain for fauna habitat with an exclusion zone
... if possible....address relocating turn-around area
... explore althernative low-impact surfacing types (coarse gravel/ bitumen /bridged system)
... define the extent of expected tree-care obligations (scope of pruning,.re-inspection time-frames, treatment and maintenance of under-canopy area).

As long as you have provided the parameters in the report, which this tree would require to continue viability ... and advised the expected outcomes where this is not done.... then you could be confident that all tree issues were addressed.. and all decision-making information is provided.

quercus · 27th January 2008, 01:49 PM

I strongly feel that these trees cannot be maintained for much longer, given the fact that countermeasures will benefit it for a while, but it doesn't prevent the fact that this situation will rapidly worsen in time.
When high risks are at stake, we must overlook the value of them and go on.
We have to calculate to what extent the owner is financially capable and/or if the will is there, because otherwise all previous and costly efforts are in vain. Not only financial resources will have to be found for direct work on the tree, let alone fin. resources for re-placement and relocating of its surroundings, and this for years to come.

The area is, from what I can see in the pics, far too great to completely minimize the threat.
So if the owner is willing to spend a lot of money on it, knowing that it will have to go anyways, then it's a good thing. But do keep in mind that a lot of other things, like proper tree-planting and replacement of trees, can be done with these resources and thereby benefitting the surroundings and the trees to come.

Jeezes, I wish my tech english and tree-related english were better so I could make a better point and explain here what I'm trying to say.

Oz could you please give us some details about how the value was calculated and wich factors came into play. I know our calculation factors by heart, but it's certainly possible that you have other calculations there. Can you also tell us more about dimensions and species. Details sort o' speak.

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 01:57 PM

Sure, I don't want to give a bunch away as determining is not resolved. Trees are Eucalyptus tereticornis (Queensland Blue Gums) DBH 1800 height 30 canopy spread roughly 18 the pair. The method of valuation incorporating wildlife was the Thyer method but please understand this was my doing and was not a description of the report. The client is not private and has a massive budget....

Ekka · 27th January 2008, 02:13 PM

Cant say from the information supplied.

Dont have traffic volumes or pictures of surrounding landscape etc.

Dont have information on the defects, the actual real size of wounds/decay penetration or holding wood capacity. The opening at the base hasn't been furnished with dimensions or depth of cavity nor wall thickness.

Nor do we have a comprehensive evaluation of what habitat exactly resides there or if they could be relocated or if there's sufficient habitat nearby to accomodate the critters even if that means modification of the surrounding trees/area.

Afterall, saving a couple of trees for habitat in the middle of Myers carpark would be ridiculous.

azrael · 27th January 2008, 02:14 PM

Link to Thyer Tree Valuation
THYER TREE VALUATION METHOD

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 02:16 PM

Well as I said Ekka don't want too give to much away on a public forum. It's more a case of read into what you can. Actually all information you requested is there. You just have to read what I said!!

Sean Freeman · 27th January 2008, 03:08 PM

Well, interesting.....based soley on the info provided I'll come down in agreement with Azreal. Quercus raises some very interesting and valid points to which I'll adress in a bit.

We (should) all know that where ever we might be the importance of bigger older trees is clearly recognised and acknowledged by the various planning controls that provide direction and guidelines as to what is seen to be best practice re trees and development. (This is as true here in QLD as it is in the USA or in Europe) Balancing how we can achieve these seemingly contradictory desires is a big part of what we do as consulting Arborists.

Azreal is so right when he says remember who the reader is.....with trees lkike these I'd be going out of my way to ensure that the client understands what value these have and why, prolonged interaction/communication site visits etc...
Coming in after all the plans are approved for the driveway or turnaround area would be a pain but not insumountable. There are a great number of closed cell containment systems that permit the construction of at grade road base with dramatically reduced compaction impacts...they are part of the best practice specs in the UK for works within the critical root zone, and when the traffic load is to be limited to domestic single lane they are a useful option. Suspended roadways are very expensive and always face big opposition on the part of the developer/builder.
Always remember that these trees have a definable dollar value, and more they have a significant real ongoing cumulative economic value (think temp/water cylce/carbon cycle) to the locals in the street/suburb the council even the state government....if the client (tree owner) is to bear the cost of retention and the local community and beyond are to gain the benefits this places the client in an advantageous position re the LGA.

How these trees fit into the larger ecology of the area is critical are they part of a definable corridor, or are they islands...do they represent local provinance, just what are the species at all trophic levels that utilise the trees as habitat,and what are they're significance. All these elements assist other players in recognising the value of the trees (again reiterating what Azreal said part of our role) and raise the profile of the trees.

Quercus poses a number of questions that need to be adressed I think...

1. The situation will worsen...I'm thinking he means that over time the visible defects within the structure of the tree will become more problematic...

Well it really is not that difficult nor expensive to reduce the wieght of severely compromised limbs...though I would be presenting the arguement to retain as much living biomass in these trees as possible and practicable. Dynamic fall arrest systems are being used in suignificant trees in our State, and they should be used more often. Branches will always fail on all trees, if moving the target is impossible (which I doubt!) then having a dynamic cabling system that will prevent identified branches and limbs from hitting the ground is a good solution.

Protecting the soil and roots is the key to protecting all trees and yes this will impose greater costs on the client than any restorative canopy works!
are the trees worth it? Based only the pics we've seen hard to say, but for the sake of developing the example lets say yes.

2.The ability and willingness of the owner to pay future costs of maintenance and management....

Always a tricky one since we have no say over what future tree owners/property owners amy or may not do...al we can do is provide them with the best advice in relation to our assessment of the trees they own, help them to see through our eyes and understand the tree through us....if we are successful we will ingender in them a appreciation of the huge importance and $$$ value they have in their living assets....beyond that we can do no more...the trees are theirs to do with as they want (within the controls of relevant legislation!!!)

If you spend the time (yes always with the time how much!!!

we never get those hours back!!!!!) and make a connectrion with the client on some level Environmental $$$'s community/cultural/historical/etc.... there is a muchgreater chance that they will make a commitment to future management.

3. Area too great to minimise the threat...

Well there is always a threat from every tree...even cut doen on the ground (trip hazard..chip and dust hazard!)

The tree owner has to weigh up what they gain from their trees against the real...not percieved...risk of significant harm.
I would suggest Quercus that you are thinking the tree is liable to fail at the base to feel removal is the only reasonable option in this case...now that might be the case (failure at the base that is!) but I don't see enough evidence from the info we have to make that call.

Retaining and managing older trees (and these Euc tereticornis are not that old!!) does not mean that you don't plan for the future succession planting should be part of the consultation for sure.
Also older trees require regular monitoring, fall arrest systems require annual checks, we need to loose the mind set that we write the report submit get the $$$'s and walk away..never to be seen on site again till the trees are to be removed!!!

Becoming the solution to the the clients tree issues will always be long term since the darn things want to live soo long!

I don't believe its too expensive, and given the opportunity will happily spend good drinking hours trying to show clients why I think that, both in reports and in person.

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 06:35 PM

You just want the beer! be honest!!

polly · 27th January 2008, 06:54 PM

I like your style Sean Freeman

you always give me food for thought.( not to mention good links to articles)

is cobra cabling used for dynamic fall arrests?

I also spend alot of time talking to our clients with big beautiful old trees the value of looking after them. I read somewhere they can add as much as 33% property value for an established healthy tree on a property. This makes their ears prick up $$$$$

they also love the mulch and space is best advice as it's free.

Money Money Money it's all about Money.psycology of tree clients is always interesting

Polly

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 06:56 PM

20% is generally a better figure but I'm not Sean so I'll let him field

Ekka · 27th January 2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozinus

You just have to read what I said!!

I did many times and the answers I need are not there.

What specific volumes of traffic, what is the surrounding landscape, what specific critters use the tree, what is the specifics of and decay or hollows etc etc etc.

Insufficient information to make judgement at this point.

Sean Freeman · 27th January 2008, 07:21 PM

Polly its really too hard to give a % increase so many variables but to be brutally honest 10-15% is likely to be the range. But this is only the $ value added to the house and the land in a sale.....check out some of the detailed calculations being done in the USA over the last 30yrs in their urban areas...the value trees add to all the important elements of where and how we live is incredible.
Pacific Southwest Research Station
Sacramento Tree Foundation: Greenprint Program: Overview

Cobra can and is used for fall arrest systems or branch support...tried to upload the cobra brochure but couldn't

The latest german cabling standard might be here on the site...vaguely remeber it being talked about either here or somewhere else (memory beer affected!!!)

Ekka · 27th January 2008, 08:25 PM

I say put it to auction and find out what it's really worth on the market!

Sean Freeman · 27th January 2008, 09:55 PM

Ok Polly have looked through both my hard drives can't find the German standard...lost in the electronic ether....
This article by Erk Brudi is better anyway...
BracingISA.pdf

polly · 27th January 2008, 09:59 PM

thank you sean for supplying me with at least a weeks worth of reading material,

I love it!

27th January 2008, 01:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: What is a tree worth IMO...it IS our role as Consultant Arborists to highlight the ecological values of trees as much as their amenity value and everything else. These sorts of relic trees are seldom seen in urban areas....and if they have extra-ordinary spatial demands (which they usually do) then we must provide that information for the CORRECT decisions to be made about their fate. Always remember who the reader is....and that they are not tree specialists....that is why you are commissioned to as Consultant Arborist Report...Other Consultants do not always not look outside their own square unless.... it is put right in front of them. I've had occasions, in discussing tree issues where the other party has not even visited the site. TRUE. You've done an excellent job on the Conclusions. The answer IMO (& based on the info provided) ... desirable to interim retain for fauna habitat with an exclusion zone ... if possible....address relocating turn-around area ... explore althernative low-impact surfacing types (coarse gravel/ bitumen /bridged system) ... define the extent of expected tree-care obligations (scope of pruning,.re-inspection time-frames, treatment and maintenance of under-canopy area). As long as you have provided the parameters in the report, which this tree would require to continue viability ... and advised the expected outcomes where this is not done.... then you could be confident that all tree issues were addressed.. and all decision-making information is provided.

27th January 2008, 01:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: What is a tree worth I strongly feel that these trees cannot be maintained for much longer, given the fact that countermeasures will benefit it for a while, but it doesn't prevent the fact that this situation will rapidly worsen in time. When high risks are at stake, we must overlook the value of them and go on. We have to calculate to what extent the owner is financially capable and/or if the will is there, because otherwise all previous and costly efforts are in vain. Not only financial resources will have to be found for direct work on the tree, let alone fin. resources for re-placement and relocating of its surroundings, and this for years to come. The area is, from what I can see in the pics, far too great to completely minimize the threat. So if the owner is willing to spend a lot of money on it, knowing that it will have to go anyways, then it's a good thing. But do keep in mind that a lot of other things, like proper tree-planting and replacement of trees, can be done with these resources and thereby benefitting the surroundings and the trees to come. Jeezes, I wish my tech english and tree-related english were better so I could make a better point and explain here what I'm trying to say. Oz could you please give us some details about how the value was calculated and wich factors came into play. I know our calculation factors by heart, but it's certainly possible that you have other calculations there. Can you also tell us more about dimensions and species. Details sort o' speak.

27th January 2008, 01:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: What is a tree worth Sure, I don't want to give a bunch away as determining is not resolved. Trees are Eucalyptus tereticornis (Queensland Blue Gums) DBH 1800 height 30 canopy spread roughly 18 the pair. The method of valuation incorporating wildlife was the Thyer method but please understand this was my doing and was not a description of the report. The client is not private and has a massive budget....

27th January 2008, 02:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Re: What is a tree worth Cant say from the information supplied. Dont have traffic volumes or pictures of surrounding landscape etc. Dont have information on the defects, the actual real size of wounds/decay penetration or holding wood capacity. The opening at the base hasn't been furnished with dimensions or depth of cavity nor wall thickness. Nor do we have a comprehensive evaluation of what habitat exactly resides there or if they could be relocated or if there's sufficient habitat nearby to accomodate the critters even if that means modification of the surrounding trees/area. Afterall, saving a couple of trees for habitat in the middle of Myers carpark would be ridiculous. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

27th January 2008, 02:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: What is a tree worth Link to Thyer Tree Valuation THYER TREE VALUATION METHOD Last edited by azrael : 27th January 2008 at 02:15 PM. Reason: Spelling

27th January 2008, 02:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: What is a tree worth Well as I said Ekka don't want too give to much away on a public forum. It's more a case of read into what you can. Actually all information you requested is there. You just have to read what I said!!

27th January 2008, 03:08 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: What is a tree worth Well, interesting.....based soley on the info provided I'll come down in agreement with Azreal. Quercus raises some very interesting and valid points to which I'll adress in a bit. We (should) all know that where ever we might be the importance of bigger older trees is clearly recognised and acknowledged by the various planning controls that provide direction and guidelines as to what is seen to be best practice re trees and development. (This is as true here in QLD as it is in the USA or in Europe) Balancing how we can achieve these seemingly contradictory desires is a big part of what we do as consulting Arborists. Azreal is so right when he says remember who the reader is.....with trees lkike these I'd be going out of my way to ensure that the client understands what value these have and why, prolonged interaction/communication site visits etc... Coming in after all the plans are approved for the driveway or turnaround area would be a pain but not insumountable. There are a great number of closed cell containment systems that permit the construction of at grade road base with dramatically reduced compaction impacts...they are part of the best practice specs in the UK for works within the critical root zone, and when the traffic load is to be limited to domestic single lane they are a useful option. Suspended roadways are very expensive and always face big opposition on the part of the developer/builder. Always remember that these trees have a definable dollar value, and more they have a significant real ongoing cumulative economic value (think temp/water cylce/carbon cycle) to the locals in the street/suburb the council even the state government....if the client (tree owner) is to bear the cost of retention and the local community and beyond are to gain the benefits this places the client in an advantageous position re the LGA. How these trees fit into the larger ecology of the area is critical are they part of a definable corridor, or are they islands...do they represent local provinance, just what are the species at all trophic levels that utilise the trees as habitat,and what are they're significance. All these elements assist other players in recognising the value of the trees (again reiterating what Azreal said part of our role) and raise the profile of the trees. Quercus poses a number of questions that need to be adressed I think... 1. The situation will worsen...I'm thinking he means that over time the visible defects within the structure of the tree will become more problematic... Well it really is not that difficult nor expensive to reduce the wieght of severely compromised limbs...though I would be presenting the arguement to retain as much living biomass in these trees as possible and practicable. Dynamic fall arrest systems are being used in suignificant trees in our State, and they should be used more often. Branches will always fail on all trees, if moving the target is impossible (which I doubt!) then having a dynamic cabling system that will prevent identified branches and limbs from hitting the ground is a good solution. Protecting the soil and roots is the key to protecting all trees and yes this will impose greater costs on the client than any restorative canopy works! are the trees worth it? Based only the pics we've seen hard to say, but for the sake of developing the example lets say yes. 2.The ability and willingness of the owner to pay future costs of maintenance and management.... Always a tricky one since we have no say over what future tree owners/property owners amy or may not do...al we can do is provide them with the best advice in relation to our assessment of the trees they own, help them to see through our eyes and understand the tree through us....if we are successful we will ingender in them a appreciation of the huge importance and $$$ value they have in their living assets....beyond that we can do no more...the trees are theirs to do with as they want (within the controls of relevant legislation!!!) If you spend the time (yes always with the time how much!!! we never get those hours back!!!!!) and make a connectrion with the client on some level Environmental $$$'s community/cultural/historical/etc.... there is a muchgreater chance that they will make a commitment to future management. 3. Area too great to minimise the threat... Well there is always a threat from every tree...even cut doen on the ground (trip hazard..chip and dust hazard!) The tree owner has to weigh up what they gain from their trees against the real...not percieved...risk of significant harm. I would suggest Quercus that you are thinking the tree is liable to fail at the base to feel removal is the only reasonable option in this case...now that might be the case (failure at the base that is!) but I don't see enough evidence from the info we have to make that call. Retaining and managing older trees (and these Euc tereticornis are not that old!!) does not mean that you don't plan for the future succession planting should be part of the consultation for sure. Also older trees require regular monitoring, fall arrest systems require annual checks, we need to loose the mind set that we write the report submit get the $$$'s and walk away..never to be seen on site again till the trees are to be removed!!! Becoming the solution to the the clients tree issues will always be long term since the darn things want to live soo long! I don't believe its too expensive, and given the opportunity will happily spend good drinking hours trying to show clients why I think that, both in reports and in person. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

27th January 2008, 06:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: What is a tree worth You just want the beer! be honest!!

27th January 2008, 06:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
polly former member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide Hills Posts: 74	Re: What is a tree worth I like your style Sean Freeman you always give me food for thought.( not to mention good links to articles) is cobra cabling used for dynamic fall arrests? I also spend alot of time talking to our clients with big beautiful old trees the value of looking after them. I read somewhere they can add as much as 33% property value for an established healthy tree on a property. This makes their ears prick up $$$$$ they also love the mulch and space is best advice as it's free. Money Money Money it's all about Money.psycology of tree clients is always interesting Polly

27th January 2008, 06:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: What is a tree worth 20% is generally a better figure but I'm not Sean so I'll let him field

27th January 2008, 07:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: What is a tree worth Polly its really too hard to give a % increase so many variables but to be brutally honest 10-15% is likely to be the range. But this is only the $ value added to the house and the land in a sale.....check out some of the detailed calculations being done in the USA over the last 30yrs in their urban areas...the value trees add to all the important elements of where and how we live is incredible. Pacific Southwest Research Station Sacramento Tree Foundation: Greenprint Program: Overview Cobra can and is used for fall arrest systems or branch support...tried to upload the cobra brochure but couldn't The latest german cabling standard might be here on the site...vaguely remeber it being talked about either here or somewhere else (memory beer affected!!!) __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

27th January 2008, 08:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Re: What is a tree worth I say put it to auction and find out what it's really worth on the market! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

27th January 2008, 09:55 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: What is a tree worth Ok Polly have looked through both my hard drives can't find the German standard...lost in the electronic ether.... This article by Erk Brudi is better anyway... BracingISA.pdf __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

27th January 2008, 09:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
polly former member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Adelaide Hills Posts: 74	Re: What is a tree worth thank you sean for supplying me with at least a weeks worth of reading material, I love it!