Video of spurclimber pruning

Oxman

Youtube video of Arbor Barber Tree Service in Seattle, Washington. Climber pruning while wearing spurs.


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Climber pruning small Cherry Tree while wearing spurs, rope slack hanging below his feet, operating chainsaw one-handed without hardhat or eye protection. No hardhats or glasses on ground crew. Crew stayed late, chipping brush in the dark. No name on truck, owner listed on ISA Certification website as employee of Davey Tree Expert Company. Spoke with someone on the phone who claims crew always wears full safety gear, and never prunes while wearing spurs.

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Apocalypsse

Lol that first guy was a total retard.

Eric Frei

I got the details from ISA going to Ryan Ringe of same business name, but that's from the details on their website:-

Don't know why they were pruning that tree anyway.

Trees like that are easily climbed without spurs.

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Oxman

Howdy,
Good research, Ekka. You went straight to the horses mouth. The ISA website listing of the individual Certified Arborist was corrected today, at Daveys request, to reflect that he is not associated with Davey Tree. Looks like we are doing some good, anyway. Apparently, he hasn't worked there for a few years, and never changed the ISA listing to his new company.

The spur bit was just a red flag that calls out for a closer look. Sure enough, the PPE infractions aren't far behind. Is a company without their business name & phone # on the truck & chipper trying to avoid people who notice these things?

One thing that may help is a listing of the reasons WHY a climber shouldn't let 10' of slack get into his climbing line. Impartial arbitors may be asked to decide whether the shock of being caught by such a slack line could lead to injury during the sudden shock load of arresting a fall.

Or, why cutting one-handed can end up having the saw jump back into your face? This is why ANSI Z133.1 says the rest of us must use two hands on the saw at all times. At least, whenever someone with a video camera is standing there.

Chipping after dark is just asking for trouble.

All of these things are what I observed after being there in the alley, not entering the jobsite, for just a few moments. What else is going on?

Some of you may remember in the early days of DOS computer we had Bulletin Board Systems (BBS's), prior to Windows computers. This was when we had to dial up the TREELINK computer in Virginia, and pay the phone company long distance charge and hourly subscription rates for the priviledge of exchanging tidbits with other arborists.

The ISA discussion group was the first internet-based arborist communication platform. Search out my posts from the late 1990's. You'll read how we talked about how things would be different, now that a way had been found to bring the old school arborists on board. How we wouldn't have to talk about them behind their backs anymore, since the future would share information worldwide.

Well, sure enough, just as the paperless office was not to be, so is isolation just a choice made by the uninformed. If it's not going to happen by them, its going to happen to them.

NeTree

What a bunch of idiots.

Oxman

Can that be said in a nice (not slanderous) way?

Cole

tossers what about that

Eric Frei

Yes I have read many of the ISA archives.

Today we live in a litigious society and publishing pictures/video etc can lead to victimisation and alleged defamation claims ... I know having experienced at least 10 cases here but not 1 went anywhere.

You have the right to take video and pictures in public places.

Ignorance is rampant and contrary to what modern technology delivers the industry (in USA at least) has not improved.
OSHA| USA| Tree Care Operations | Asking Your Input

We climb on static ropes, rock climbers who fall on their ropes use dynamic which has up to 50% stretch to absorb a fall's dynamic load.

You take a genuine 1m clean fall on our system you'll feel it alright. I think you fall around 2m before you react (in an unprepared scenario), good reactions take around 0.2seconds, in that time you'd have fallen 2m.



Now what is the force on you after 2m fall depends on the amount of rope out but can be up to 16X your body weight in a real bad case scenario.

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NeTree

I call it like I see 'em, Mike.

Spurs or no; I'm pretty sure they have PPE in Hawaii, too.

kieren

my god I thought that shit only happened here in Adelaide LOL

Eric Frei

It happens everywhere, however I singled the USA out because their OSHA got the numbers and rallied for help. It means regardless of all the information, standards and pseudo regulations it's not getting better.

Now here compare that to say the construction industry there has been massive improvements. But there's a difference which I believe is the size of the workplace.

Small businesses, 3 man tree crews etc aren't as serious about things as a 100 man construction site. And a 100 man construction site has to abide by many regs and is checked up on.

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Garry Brockley

Thats so true Ekka the larger the company the more regulations are enforced upon them, so like you say the three man crews regularly fly under the wire so to speak, there needs to be an enforcing body of some kind within the orgs to try and stop these things. that person must be so proud of his work. sorry thats sarcasm if you didnt get it.

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Eric Frei

Why orgs, that's where corruption breeds. Independent of orgs more like it!

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Gunslinger

Yes, this is true, small jobs generally lack any oversight. Now many larger construction sites have their own private site safety inspectors who enforce OSHA standards and their own more stringent measures as well. (Safety glasses at all times, fall arrest harnesses when working on a ladder over 6' off the floor, etc.) These site safety programs get the General Contractors big reductions in their liability insurance as well as some shielding from injury related lawsuits. They do this buy requiring all workers to attend a site safety seminar where they outline all of the written safety procedures on the site and make you sign a form stating that you understand and will follow all procedures. This way if you screw up and get hurt they can say that your injury was due to your own negligence not theirs since you violated a specific policy for which they're not liable. You almost never see OSHA on any construction job, big or small, unless there's an accident of someone calls to report a dangerous situation.

Oxman

I screw up all the time. It amazes me. Sometimes there is a lesson, where a better way to prune a tree is revealed by the screwup. Some mistakes seem to be destined to repeat themselves, like a bad habit that I can't break.

One mistake is to flame someone on the internet. Sorry about that.

At group climbs, I always learn a lot. Lots more than when I screw up when no one else is watching. A particularly educational group climb was at the California Arborist Association work party at a scout camp in Sacramento.

In the morning, at the group introduction meeting, there was an announcement by Chad Brey about the need for safety. He said the 40 arborists present couldn't all be monitored for safety at all times in the sprawling facility.

The solution was that if ANYONE present notices a safety issue, it should be brought up immediately. The work needs to stop and a solution to the safety problem must be found.

The tree care industry is like that scout camp, sprawling. The crews would certainly agree that safety precautions need to be used if safety is the top priority.

It is the responsibility of all of us to bring up infractions of safety rules. I hate driving injured co-workers to the hospital. There isn't a more helpless feeling than wishing that their eye injury had been prevented by simply wearing glasses. The feeble rationalizations about lenses fogging up seem like a distant memory without importance.

rbtree

Not quite, Eric. A falling object, ignoring friction from wind resistance, accelerates at the rate of 32 feet per second. So, in one second, the object will drop 16 feet, in 2 seconds- 48, and 72 in 3 seconds.....So, in 0.2 seconds, the drop would only be ~1.5-2.0 feet.

And many good full dynamic rock ropes can stretch up to 70% at break. And 6-7% under body weight, whereas tree ropes have 1-2% stretch...and about 20% at break.

Rrringer1

I am Ryan Ringe of the Arbor Barber Tree Service. Where to start. For some reason, Mr. Oxman doesn't believe anything that I have said about how we operate. This is evident by the repeated postings of our safety violations and comments about the state of our company. I am glad that I found out about the safety violations and hook incident. I was shocked about the allegations of our safety violations. It is NOT normal and we have never ever hooked anything we were pruning before. It sheds a light for me that I need to have more spot checks and much more serious consequences for violations. I will also continue to improve on our safety manual and employee handbook. I never have caught my crew without any of their safety equipment on, and would have been very upset if I would have walked up on them and seen them without hardhats or safety glasses. It is a positive thing to discuss ALL safety issues and I want to do that. It is difficult to keep a crew on top of all safety policies at all times, and this is a good topic for discussion. As far as the hooks go, I am flabbergasted that my employee was doing this. It is ok to use hook in a lead that is being removed, but completely unacceptable to keep them on to prune the tree. My lead pruner was gone that day, and my foreman should not have had him in the tree. He was working on the hedge that was important to the client, and didnt know he was using the spurs at all.

Having said that, I am quite upset with the situation, especially with Mr. Oxman. My wife never said that she was going to sue for slander, only that our lawyer (and she is one too) would be calling him Re harassment in the form of numerous calls to local tree industry professionals giving half-truths and and posting the video on several sites without telling me. Oxman never called me until after he posted the video, and when he finally did call me he was very secretive about what was going on. He called my old boss at Davey Tree as well as numerous other industry people. He told me that he was good friends with my old boss, a giant in the industry in Seattle, which I found is not true at all. He is posting this video everywhere, and never believed me when I gave my side of the story. I feel very threatened right now.
If Mr. Oxman would have called me and talked to me before he started this smear campaign (I hear he is posting this on multiple sites across the internet), then I would have gladly joined any discussions to talk about how other tree service owners can prevent this from happening. As tree service owners we could all come together to tackle these issues and work for solutions mutually beneficial for our profession.

NeTree

Ryan, glad you checked in with your side of things.

Rrringer1

Thank you. I am on vacation visiting my mother in Arizona for a short time, and have been spending all of my time trying to address the numerous sites that this has been posted on. I know that this will be a positive thing in the long run, but it is very hard to swallow right now. As I said before, I would be happy to discuss this on any forum, but feel as I have been harrassed from all sides. The best thing to come out of this is education on tree safety, and how other small tree company owners can keep this from happening on their crews.

Rrringer1

Does anyone know of any other sites that this video is posted? I would like to join all pertinent discussions.

Eric Frei

Yes you are partially right. I got that diagram from a ppt here. Not real good of them to make an error like that.

But a bit more research shows the chart below. Your distances are out. That's because in the 2nd second it falls more than 32' due to travelling faster. In the first second it starts from zero so I would say after 0.2 seconds you'd fall 1m (3').

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Eric Frei

I only know of this one and generally only hang out at this one.

I have also cleaned up identical posts on this forum in other sections, I notced you posted in the Welcome thread and started another thread on the very same issue.

What I have done is inserted in the first post that you have responded with a link.

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rbtree

Right, Eric. I should have said an object falls (in a vacuum) 48 feet the 2nd second, and 72 the 3rd, for a total of 136 feet in 3 seconds. i knew that, but posted without thinking.

I've often tested out my height by dropping a chuck of wood, and counting the time it takes to land.....

rbtree

Welcome, Ryan.

I can vouch for Ryan's overall company reputation, as I posted on two other forums..... They do good work.

rbtree

Not possible. An object starts from zero, and at the end of one second is traveling at 32 feet per second. But it only travels 16 feet in that second. I'm too lazy to break down the rate of acceleration /5.

But try this 1.4'+2.1'+3'+3.9'+5.6'=16.0' .....That's close.

I recall, many years ago, spurring up a maple, with only a flip line. It forked, and I lanyarded in above the fork. While maneuvering up, with my lanyard off to one side, I gaffed out and fell about 3 feet to the crotch. No give in a steel core flip-line. No pain, but a rude awakening!!!

Eric Frei

Be about right Rb.

Hey Ryan Ringe, have you had a look at our advertising details, we're powering on mate ... have you considered the value of advertising here?

We got a top flashing banner spot or you can have a thread.

Advertising on Tree World

I could easily say around here that >50% of tree business spur their prunes and wear little to no PPE, that's a fact Jack. I have just about given up on caring anymore.

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Rrringer1

I will check it out Ekka, thanks
Hate to run, but won't be around the 'puter all day, will check back later

Oxman

The information identifying the people in the video has been stripped off of the Youtube site.

Rrringer1

Thanks Oxman
Look forward to meeting you at next ISA meeting in Arlington

Eric Frei

LOL, that'll be interesting to watch.

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