Twin topped - peaked hoop pine | Suggestions | Subsidence?

Ekka · 10th June 2008, 02:21 AM

Hoop pine, Auraucaria Cunninghamii can grow to 65m tall (200') and have a DBH up to 1.5m in my experience.

This specimen is 0.5m DBH and 28m tall approximately.

The last say 6m is dual headed. Have a look. What would you do about the dual head?

This is the view from the street.

This is the view from the rear unit complex, red circle where the two tops start.

And the next two are closer ups of that twin top.

newguy18 · 10th June 2008, 08:28 AM

Well its hard to really say since i'm not familar with the species but i'll bite.Since its really to big the remove one of the leaders i'd remove all branches in between the union and bolt the union togther then cable it up higher to help strengthen it.Just my 2 cents worth.

rangitata · 10th June 2008, 07:33 PM

Personally Eric, I would remove the whole left side leader (photo 2) to just above the fork, to try obtain the single trunked apical dominance that this species normally has. Install a "catching" sling to protect the possible failure of the remaining leader could alos be an option.

Cheers Mike

dannyboysfc · 10th June 2008, 10:37 PM

I also say take out the left one, keep the right one.

this is not an expert oppinion, just a guess at the right thing to do.

blair duncanson · 11th June 2008, 01:15 AM

Aye, perhaps thinning some of the crossing branches, whilst still retaining shape is what i would recommend. Tricky to say without closer look at fork union. Potentially removal of one of these leaders could leave too big a wound, which through time would potentially in danger the other leader, through decay and mechanical changes but from photo two it appears that now would be the time to take one of them out without too much disturbance to the tree...ideas..

treestyle · 11th June 2008, 04:19 AM

i'd be asking why has this dual leader developed? is it the result of storm damage or has the tree choosen to naturally grow this way?

there are plenty of big old pines out there that have been lopped in the past and now have 3 - 4 codominate stems growing at the point of lopping. in my limited experience i have not yet seen a failure occur at the point of the epicormic attatchment.

this union looks to be a natural occurance not resulting from lopping or storm damage. i think it would be fine to leave as is. however from the clients point of view and in the interest of revenue raising we could find something to do to it. wether good or bad for the tree.

i'd suggest leaving all foliage so as not to change the natural movements that the stems are used to, fall arrest system could be installed for peace of mind.

worth a wander out into the bush to see how many codominate stemmed pines are naturally occurring.

Ekka · 11th June 2008, 04:31 AM

I'd say it's natural development.

A twist in the tail though, likely it will be cut down, not my say but they thought it was protected and got me out for a measure up and look etc.

I was geared for a save it report but doubled checked with BCC to find out NO VPO ... so they're going to cut it down most likely regardless of what I say or do (not that they need a report anymore)

They think it's part of the cause of this.

treestyle · 11th June 2008, 04:41 AM

bastards!

Ekka · 11th June 2008, 04:49 AM

This is Brisbane mate ... tree hater city!

Mostly people just give a shit how big ya chipper and truck is and how cheap you are.

treeseer · 11th June 2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

They think it's part of the cause of this. ]

Why doesn't someone get out a pick and shovel and locate the roots nearby and find out? By simply digging and cutting, you could do more than anyone with a big truck and chipper.

re management, instead of cutting off the branches that cross the stem, why not bolt them together. This would facilitate "natural bracing", would it not?

rangitata · 11th June 2008, 11:26 PM

I get that every day Eric, the client sees a crack and the nearest tree has to be the cause, never mind the fact that we have had a record dry spell and the soil is drying out all over brisbane.

But this is a service industry in Brisbane and the customer is always right

Ekka · 12th June 2008, 03:19 AM

This is a double whammy of dry subsidence and wet upheaval.

Guy, as the tree is no longer protected they just cut it regardless, beside wasting my time already you'd like me to waste more?

treeseer · 12th June 2008, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Guy, as the tree is no longer protected they just cut it regardless, beside wasting my time already you'd like me to waste more?

O hell no, if they are hot to whack their tree instead of finding out the truth, they are beyond the help of arboriculture. Pick and shovel is not hard work really, but it'd be nuts to volunteer and arborist's time for arborphobic idiots.

It could make sense however to submit a proposal to assess the roots. They might toss it, but at least they would be made aware of the logic and simplicity of the process.

Ekka · 12th June 2008, 05:22 AM

They've been told verbally but now the engineers will blame the tree to.

Also, the tree was some 7m away from the building, the neighbour had a row of palms 3.7m away.

The land slopes down hill at a decent rate, just beyond their fence line (1.7m) is a 1.2m high retaining wall. With clay that means the bottom of their yard is damp. The block of units behind suffer extreme damp problems, their driveway has cracked in numerous places and we were told no more than 2.5ton on it or it will crack more. Engineers said it was like a damp river beneath due to the steep grade and water coming down, banking at the retaining wall then escaping beneath the driveway.

Talking to a builder he says when clay is extremely damp is swells, however a 3 story building pushing down on foundations is likened to this analogy.... imagine you standing in a large tub full of clay, we wet it a lot and you sink a little but what happens around you? It rises. This confirms all the slabs around the building have lifted closer to the building, moved away from the building and tilt downward. The building has sunk and the clay around risen.

Now the tree is actually helping the situation by pumping the excess water out.

This is natural subsidence resulting from poor preparation and foundation design. The building was built early 90's so the tree was there already. I estimate the tree to have been some 15m to 18m tall then, so any decent builder and geotech should have taken into consideration the mature size and built foundations accordingly.

Also the other corner of the building was same but not so bad, now the ironic part was the front of the building the same but only just slightly appearing cracks. So it's sinking at the back, where it's wettest.

But I'm just an fuggen idiot in Brisbane mate, paid worse than a shit kicker at the tip.

Roller · 3rd July 2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangitata

I get that every day Eric, the client sees a crack and the nearest tree has to be the cause, never mind the fact that we have had a record dry spell and the soil is drying out all over brisbane.

But this is a service industry in Brisbane and the customer is always right

Yes but the near by tree is still alive right? therefore its got to be takjing up water and only adding to the problem,..

10th June 2008, 08:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 4,062	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions Well its hard to really say since i'm not familar with the species but i'll bite.Since its really to big the remove one of the leaders i'd remove all branches in between the union and bolt the union togther then cable it up higher to help strengthen it.Just my 2 cents worth. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA "Everybody's hell on safety." G.f.beranek. www.atreestory.com

10th June 2008, 07:33 PM	#3 (permalink)
rangitata Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 64	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions Personally Eric, I would remove the whole left side leader (photo 2) to just above the fork, to try obtain the single trunked apical dominance that this species normally has. Install a "catching" sling to protect the possible failure of the remaining leader could alos be an option. Cheers Mike

10th June 2008, 10:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 173	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions I also say take out the left one, keep the right one. this is not an expert oppinion, just a guess at the right thing to do.

11th June 2008, 01:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
blair duncanson Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: argyll Posts: 127	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions Aye, perhaps thinning some of the crossing branches, whilst still retaining shape is what i would recommend. Tricky to say without closer look at fork union. Potentially removal of one of these leaders could leave too big a wound, which through time would potentially in danger the other leader, through decay and mechanical changes but from photo two it appears that now would be the time to take one of them out without too much disturbance to the tree...ideas..

11th June 2008, 04:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 124	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions i'd be asking why has this dual leader developed? is it the result of storm damage or has the tree choosen to naturally grow this way? there are plenty of big old pines out there that have been lopped in the past and now have 3 - 4 codominate stems growing at the point of lopping. in my limited experience i have not yet seen a failure occur at the point of the epicormic attatchment. this union looks to be a natural occurance not resulting from lopping or storm damage. i think it would be fine to leave as is. however from the clients point of view and in the interest of revenue raising we could find something to do to it. wether good or bad for the tree. i'd suggest leaving all foliage so as not to change the natural movements that the stems are used to, fall arrest system could be installed for peace of mind. worth a wander out into the bush to see how many codominate stemmed pines are naturally occurring.

11th June 2008, 04:31 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions I'd say it's natural development. A twist in the tail though, likely it will be cut down, not my say but they thought it was protected and got me out for a measure up and look etc. I was geared for a save it report but doubled checked with BCC to find out NO VPO ... so they're going to cut it down most likely regardless of what I say or do (not that they need a report anymore) They think it's part of the cause of this. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

11th June 2008, 04:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 124	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions bastards!

11th June 2008, 04:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions This is Brisbane mate ... tree hater city! Mostly people just give a shit how big ya chipper and truck is and how cheap you are. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

11th June 2008, 11:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
rangitata Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 64	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions I get that every day Eric, the client sees a crack and the nearest tree has to be the cause, never mind the fact that we have had a record dry spell and the soil is drying out all over brisbane. But this is a service industry in Brisbane and the customer is always right

12th June 2008, 03:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions This is a double whammy of dry subsidence and wet upheaval. Guy, as the tree is no longer protected they just cut it regardless, beside wasting my time already you'd like me to waste more? __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

12th June 2008, 05:22 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Twin topped - peaked hoop pine \| Suggestions They've been told verbally but now the engineers will blame the tree to. Also, the tree was some 7m away from the building, the neighbour had a row of palms 3.7m away. The land slopes down hill at a decent rate, just beyond their fence line (1.7m) is a 1.2m high retaining wall. With clay that means the bottom of their yard is damp. The block of units behind suffer extreme damp problems, their driveway has cracked in numerous places and we were told no more than 2.5ton on it or it will crack more. Engineers said it was like a damp river beneath due to the steep grade and water coming down, banking at the retaining wall then escaping beneath the driveway. Talking to a builder he says when clay is extremely damp is swells, however a 3 story building pushing down on foundations is likened to this analogy.... imagine you standing in a large tub full of clay, we wet it a lot and you sink a little but what happens around you? It rises. This confirms all the slabs around the building have lifted closer to the building, moved away from the building and tilt downward. The building has sunk and the clay around risen. Now the tree is actually helping the situation by pumping the excess water out. This is natural subsidence resulting from poor preparation and foundation design. The building was built early 90's so the tree was there already. I estimate the tree to have been some 15m to 18m tall then, so any decent builder and geotech should have taken into consideration the mature size and built foundations accordingly. Also the other corner of the building was same but not so bad, now the ironic part was the front of the building the same but only just slightly appearing cracks. So it's sinking at the back, where it's wettest. But I'm just an fuggen idiot in Brisbane mate, paid worse than a shit kicker at the tip. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors