Tricky pine felling

Therrin · 16th January 2008, 04:51 AM

Well this one is a decent amount larger than the last one.

I also didn't put a line in it, as I didn't have much room to put my truck or another anchor.
The pine was on the edge of a round corral, was falling distance from another corral, next to a small building, next to 2 other trees, along primary lines, and hung over two parallel fence lines. The ground was very soft from recent rains...

Only other problems were the decent amount of weight hanging over my head and opposite the direction I wanted to fell it, as well as the fences directly behind the barrel, allowing no escape path. The other two routes to the left and the right had significant sized leaders overhead.

I had a very tight area to drop it, namely, the whole thing had to fit in the round corral. I tried something a little different with the cut, to give it direction and it seemed to work. There was a fair amount of weight leaning towards the white building as well, so I was trying to angle it away from there. It cleared the fence by inches on one side, and a couple feet on the other. All in all not a bad drop. Bucked it all up, even went through and cut up all the brush so it'd be dumpster sized.

This one came down on Phoenix Ranch, off of Live Oak Springs Canyon Rd, in the town of Canyon Country. Funny enough, got to talking with the ranch owner, for a good half hour after I finished the job. Turns out that his father in law was the Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore), and his brother is CEO of the huge corp. called "Herbal-life" Claimed he'd have lots of return work for me. We ended up splitting the wood; half and half. I got all the big stuff.

Oh, any of you who remember me mentioning that I was looking at a certain pine in an area that I was working, but it had lines running next to it, which sparked Ekka's thread on Electrocution and such... well this is that same tree. Line clearance guys came through a couple weeks back and hacked it back so it wasn't rubbing. After that I didn't have any vices with it.

Other than the fact that it was heavy, multi-leadered, and problematic. Got it down okay though! woohoo! This one felt good.

Tried to give a kinda clockwise view of the area:

The lack of an escape path here made it hairy. It started to go over, so I breaked the saw, dropped it and dove through the fence. It started to go......then stopped. So I went back through gingerly and kept it goin till it started to go!!! Jumped back through the fence! It was going....!....!.... and went crashing down. Score!

The trusty 361 is pulling its weight on this job.

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 01:04 PM

Therrin, glad the fell went well for you, I would like some more info on the tree and your cuts please...and no I'm not wanting to have a go at you, just not sure where the weight/lean was, and not sure what the two ledges cut into the face were for.
I assume the weight/lean was in the direction of the red arrow? And obviously desired direction and the way the tree went..the yellow arrow

These are the two small ledges I'm not sure about..

When you say the tree began to fall but then stopped...what additional cutting did you then need to do? More from behind into the hinge, in the scarf (front cut)?

Trees can and do often stall when the scarf is not open enough, I don't know if this is what happened to this tree. Here's a diagram of what I mean..

Pigdog · 16th January 2008, 04:27 PM

Is that hinge triangle shaped?

newguy18 · 16th January 2008, 04:51 PM

Sean I think he tried to get it to go with the yellow arrow by cutting through some of the hinge kinda like a dutchman so it would pull on the high side[since he didn't have a pull rope.i think that ledge on the otherside was to keep it falling true to the hinge kind of like an improved jump cut for large limbs.just my thoughts and observations.

bigshea13 · 16th January 2008, 05:26 PM

hey there therrin. what kinda knotch do ya call that.

on thing to keep in mind is that when you pace the face notch... keep it clean. im not able to draw on your pics so bear with me. when you back cut and the tree begins to hinge the notch obviously begins to close/ when the top of your face notch{the diagonal/hypotenous} meets the bottom of the notch{flat cut} thats where the resistance starts.when those two places meet the tree then begins to rip apart at the hinge wood. too much and you get the stuff stickin up in the middle. that stuff is an indication that there was an enormous amount of force acting on the butt{gravity/inertia} , the notch closed and the hinge wood tried to hold but the force was too great so it pulled the fibers from the core of the tree.no matter what other type of cuts or notches you may place on the butt its all over after those two points meet. you no longer have control of the tree. to eliminate the fiber tear youd use a bore cut or an open face notch. the open face is just what it sounds like. big and wide. 90degrees or even bigger. bring your back cut up a couple inches and start slicing that bugger level across trying to leave an even amount of hingewood all the way across. the open face will allow the tree to fall almost if not all the way to the ground before control is lost{hingewood breaks}

once youve become familiar with the way individual tree species react when their felled youll be able to use conventional notches and avoid or keep the tearing to a minimum by adjusting the speed at which you place your back cut. heavy leaners require faster backcutting because if you dont get the hingewood down to the appropriate thickness before the tree has fallen too far you end up with the fiber tear. hence.. a razor sharp chain, a well filed bar, and a tuned in and fueled up saw are necessary.

when youve placed your face notch in ..clean out the notch. make sure the angled and horizontal cuts meet EXACTLY. if one is further back than the other...the notch is only as wide as your chain witdh and will break prematurely{hope you understand that. hard to describe} then place you saw back in the notch. huskys have sights on the rewind covers{ perpendicular raised lines} make sure bar is snugged up against back of notch. that will let you see, providing the tree isnt lost due to hinge break, the direction of the fall.
keep it uniform and keep it CLEAN and youll be slammin down on target every time>

good luck.

newguy18 · 16th January 2008, 05:59 PM

personally I would have just used a coos bay and snugged a wedge on the left side of the tree.

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 06:42 PM

Bigshea13 is right having all your cuts level is very important, and trying very hard to have your back cut above the base of your scarf is also very important....I just didn't want to hammer on you too much, the pulled fibres do indicate the hinge failed at least to some degree during the fell, perhaps because of the tree stalling I'm not sure.

Can't seem to download any pdf's? Not sure what thats about I'll see if I can rob some of the diagrams to demonstrate for readers what we're on about.

bigshea13 · 16th January 2008, 07:01 PM

hammerin not intended....im just tryin ta help. i had alot of it threwout the years.

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 07:02 PM

You are helping mate

newguy18 · 16th January 2008, 07:18 PM

i'm not hammerin either but another cause of wood pull like that comes from using narrow face cuts.I only use them rarley when I need the tree off the stump soon after it tips but it causes alot of wood tear and a good chance of barber chair so i mainly make a good wide face cut.

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 07:23 PM

Here's a couple of diagrams showing the dangers of the little ledge in the fromt cut or scarf...this can be created if you don't pay close attention to getting the two cuts to meet accurately.

Here's one of the problems with sloping cuts

and finally the danger of cutting into the hingewood itself....really bad idea!!!

I'll pm Eric and ask about the pdf problems, there's a really great NZ felling manual that has great diagrams and very sound directions.

newguy18 · 16th January 2008, 07:39 PM

Your right dutchmans are really dangerous and shouldn't be used but some people do use them.In our industry there are better and safer ways like directional felling,pull lines,wedging,and jacking.dutchmans are kinda outdated.

Therrin · 16th January 2008, 08:21 PM

Ya'll can "hammer away" all ya want... I wouldn't have posted pictures of less-than-good technique if I didn't expect some ribbing from it. I EXPECT criticizm. How am I supposed to learn otherwise? Have at it!

Okay.... to clear a few things up.

I'm familiar with pines.... this one was just convoluted as hell, which is what made it hairy. Rich variety of targets, and the fact that it wasn't a single vertical spar, or for that matter, wasn't a somewhat "vertical" multi-leadered pine, it was actually a single barrel, leaning one direction, then at about 15 foot, there was a 16" leader coming back directly opposite the direction of lean. Just above that there was a 12" leader dangling off to the left, about a 14" angling off to the right, and then back behind, and several more all about 14" to 20" which went either up and out or up and back.
Most of these ran for more than 25 feet, and lent a bit of weight in those directions.

Was having camera trouble and didn't get the shot of it while it was standing, my fault, that picture would have been worth a thousand words.

The face was started off as a regular scarf and 90, then was undercut Humboldt style to create a VERY open face. I touched the sides, but went too far, I think. Coming in from the back is when it started to go, then stopped, actually 3 different times. Each time I'd break the saw, drop it and jump through the horizontal fence rails then scramble out from under any potential DZ landing spots. Like I said though, the face was plenty open.

I wasn't overly aggressive when cutting through on the back, being wary of a possible barber-chairing, so when I was back cutting, and it started widening up and going, I was getting out!!

All in all, yeah, the notching is kinda crappy looking. Tree landed exactly where I needed it to go, so I either got lucky, or the way I figured it worked for that one.

Sean, the Purple arrow indicates the direction of lean in the trunk, up to about 15'. Had about a 50 degree lean. The Blue arrows show the direction of *significant* amounts of weight above the lean.

If I dropped it in the direction of lean, It'd have wiped out the two fences, the power lines, another pine, and a bunch of corral.

When all was said and done the H.O. was convinced that I knew what I was doing. Guess it turned out all right, considering. I don't like guessing, but it felt somewhat educated.
Couldn't find a good position for a pull rope. Didn't have room for the truck, ground was damp and soft, fences were only lightly bolted together, etc etc.

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 08:25 PM

So you think you cut those ledges when you were making the humbolt?

Therrin · 16th January 2008, 08:28 PM

mmmm, I don't think so. I had intended to cut each side a tad to keep it from holding on. They turned out sloppy. The angle of the back cut was sloppy. I'm having trouble making level cuts. Was thinking about glueing a level-bubble-tube to my saw.

16th January 2008, 04:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,254	Tricky pine felling Well this one is a decent amount larger than the last one. I also didn't put a line in it, as I didn't have much room to put my truck or another anchor. The pine was on the edge of a round corral, was falling distance from another corral, next to a small building, next to 2 other trees, along primary lines, and hung over two parallel fence lines. The ground was very soft from recent rains... Only other problems were the decent amount of weight hanging over my head and opposite the direction I wanted to fell it, as well as the fences directly behind the barrel, allowing no escape path. The other two routes to the left and the right had significant sized leaders overhead. I had a very tight area to drop it, namely, the whole thing had to fit in the round corral. I tried something a little different with the cut, to give it direction and it seemed to work. There was a fair amount of weight leaning towards the white building as well, so I was trying to angle it away from there. It cleared the fence by inches on one side, and a couple feet on the other. All in all not a bad drop. Bucked it all up, even went through and cut up all the brush so it'd be dumpster sized. This one came down on Phoenix Ranch, off of Live Oak Springs Canyon Rd, in the town of Canyon Country. Funny enough, got to talking with the ranch owner, for a good half hour after I finished the job. Turns out that his father in law was the Lone Ranger (Clayton Moore), and his brother is CEO of the huge corp. called "Herbal-life" Claimed he'd have lots of return work for me. We ended up splitting the wood; half and half. I got all the big stuff. Oh, any of you who remember me mentioning that I was looking at a certain pine in an area that I was working, but it had lines running next to it, which sparked Ekka's thread on Electrocution and such... well this is that same tree. Line clearance guys came through a couple weeks back and hacked it back so it wasn't rubbing. After that I didn't have any vices with it. Other than the fact that it was heavy, multi-leadered, and problematic. Got it down okay though! woohoo! This one felt good. Tried to give a kinda clockwise view of the area: The lack of an escape path here made it hairy. It started to go over, so I breaked the saw, dropped it and dove through the fence. It started to go......then stopped. So I went back through gingerly and kept it goin till it started to go!!! Jumped back through the fence! It was going....!....!.... and went crashing down. Score! The trusty 361 is pulling its weight on this job. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

16th January 2008, 04:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Pigdog Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 65	Re: Tricky pine felling Is that hinge triangle shaped?

16th January 2008, 04:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,616	Re: Tricky pine felling Sean I think he tried to get it to go with the yellow arrow by cutting through some of the hinge kinda like a dutchman so it would pull on the high side[since he didn't have a pull rope.i think that ledge on the otherside was to keep it falling true to the hinge kind of like an improved jump cut for large limbs.just my thoughts and observations. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

16th January 2008, 05:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: Tricky pine felling hey there therrin. what kinda knotch do ya call that.on thing to keep in mind is that when you pace the face notch... keep it clean. im not able to draw on your pics so bear with me. when you back cut and the tree begins to hinge the notch obviously begins to close/ when the top of your face notch{the diagonal/hypotenous} meets the bottom of the notch{flat cut} thats where the resistance starts.when those two places meet the tree then begins to rip apart at the hinge wood. too much and you get the stuff stickin up in the middle. that stuff is an indication that there was an enormous amount of force acting on the butt{gravity/inertia} , the notch closed and the hinge wood tried to hold but the force was too great so it pulled the fibers from the core of the tree.no matter what other type of cuts or notches you may place on the butt its all over after those two points meet. you no longer have control of the tree. to eliminate the fiber tear youd use a bore cut or an open face notch. the open face is just what it sounds like. big and wide. 90degrees or even bigger. bring your back cut up a couple inches and start slicing that bugger level across trying to leave an even amount of hingewood all the way across. the open face will allow the tree to fall almost if not all the way to the ground before control is lost{hingewood breaks} once youve become familiar with the way individual tree species react when their felled youll be able to use conventional notches and avoid or keep the tearing to a minimum by adjusting the speed at which you place your back cut. heavy leaners require faster backcutting because if you dont get the hingewood down to the appropriate thickness before the tree has fallen too far you end up with the fiber tear. hence.. a razor sharp chain, a well filed bar, and a tuned in and fueled up saw are necessary. when youve placed your face notch in ..clean out the notch. make sure the angled and horizontal cuts meet EXACTLY. if one is further back than the other...the notch is only as wide as your chain witdh and will break prematurely{hope you understand that. hard to describe} then place you saw back in the notch. huskys have sights on the rewind covers{ perpendicular raised lines} make sure bar is snugged up against back of notch. that will let you see, providing the tree isnt lost due to hinge break, the direction of the fall. keep it uniform and keep it CLEAN and youll be slammin down on target every time> good luck.

16th January 2008, 05:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,616	Re: Tricky pine felling personally I would have just used a coos bay and snugged a wedge on the left side of the tree. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

16th January 2008, 06:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: Tricky pine felling Bigshea13 is right having all your cuts level is very important, and trying very hard to have your back cut above the base of your scarf is also very important....I just didn't want to hammer on you too much, the pulled fibres do indicate the hinge failed at least to some degree during the fell, perhaps because of the tree stalling I'm not sure. Can't seem to download any pdf's? Not sure what thats about I'll see if I can rob some of the diagrams to demonstrate for readers what we're on about. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

16th January 2008, 07:01 PM	#8 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: Tricky pine felling hammerin not intended....im just tryin ta help. i had alot of it threwout the years.

16th January 2008, 07:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: Tricky pine felling You are helping mate __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

16th January 2008, 07:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,616	Re: Tricky pine felling i'm not hammerin either but another cause of wood pull like that comes from using narrow face cuts.I only use them rarley when I need the tree off the stump soon after it tips but it causes alot of wood tear and a good chance of barber chair so i mainly make a good wide face cut. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

16th January 2008, 07:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,616	Re: Tricky pine felling Your right dutchmans are really dangerous and shouldn't be used but some people do use them.In our industry there are better and safer ways like directional felling,pull lines,wedging,and jacking.dutchmans are kinda outdated. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

16th January 2008, 08:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,254	Re: Tricky pine felling Ya'll can "hammer away" all ya want... I wouldn't have posted pictures of less-than-good technique if I didn't expect some ribbing from it. I EXPECT criticizm. How am I supposed to learn otherwise? Have at it! Okay.... to clear a few things up. I'm familiar with pines.... this one was just convoluted as hell, which is what made it hairy. Rich variety of targets, and the fact that it wasn't a single vertical spar, or for that matter, wasn't a somewhat "vertical" multi-leadered pine, it was actually a single barrel, leaning one direction, then at about 15 foot, there was a 16" leader coming back directly opposite the direction of lean. Just above that there was a 12" leader dangling off to the left, about a 14" angling off to the right, and then back behind, and several more all about 14" to 20" which went either up and out or up and back. Most of these ran for more than 25 feet, and lent a bit of weight in those directions. Was having camera trouble and didn't get the shot of it while it was standing, my fault, that picture would have been worth a thousand words. The face was started off as a regular scarf and 90, then was undercut Humboldt style to create a VERY open face. I touched the sides, but went too far, I think. Coming in from the back is when it started to go, then stopped, actually 3 different times. Each time I'd break the saw, drop it and jump through the horizontal fence rails then scramble out from under any potential DZ landing spots. Like I said though, the face was plenty open. I wasn't overly aggressive when cutting through on the back, being wary of a possible barber-chairing, so when I was back cutting, and it started widening up and going, I was getting out!! All in all, yeah, the notching is kinda crappy looking. Tree landed exactly where I needed it to go, so I either got lucky, or the way I figured it worked for that one. Sean, the Purple arrow indicates the direction of lean in the trunk, up to about 15'. Had about a 50 degree lean. The Blue arrows show the direction of significant amounts of weight above the lean. If I dropped it in the direction of lean, It'd have wiped out the two fences, the power lines, another pine, and a bunch of corral. When all was said and done the H.O. was convinced that I knew what I was doing. Guess it turned out all right, considering. I don't like guessing, but it felt somewhat educated. Couldn't find a good position for a pull rope. Didn't have room for the truck, ground was damp and soft, fences were only lightly bolted together, etc etc. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

16th January 2008, 08:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: Tricky pine felling So you think you cut those ledges when you were making the humbolt? __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

16th January 2008, 08:28 PM	#15 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,254	Re: Tricky pine felling mmmm, I don't think so. I had intended to cut each side a tad to keep it from holding on. They turned out sloppy. The angle of the back cut was sloppy. I'm having trouble making level cuts. Was thinking about glueing a level-bubble-tube to my saw. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

16th January 2008, 08:30 PM	#16 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,616