stumpgrinding/buried services

dingo

G'day all,

I was wondering what most people do if they are stumpgrinding near where there maybe a buried cable or pipe. Do you bother trying to physically locate it or just grind to no deeper than say 300mm. Im talking about small to medium size stumps on domestic sites.

As we all know the information supplied here in Aus by "dial before you dig" provides pretty vague details about locations and pretty much puts the onus back on the contractor to locate a service manually. On the one hand you could quote accordingly and locate it prior to the grinding but then on the other hand how will you know how long that is going to take...

Just wondering how most of you guys go about this situation

Cheers
Chris

newguy18

I don't know about over there but here in the states if you call they send someone out to locate and mark them for you.

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Apocalypsse

From the stories I've heard about DBYD, they are pretty useless and you still get fined if their info is wrong and you hit something. Best bet is to price it for digging around the stump if you suspect theres services under it.

dingo

yeah thats sounds nice...

Here they send you maps from all the network owners and they are absolutely laced with statements saying the maps aren't accurate or neccesarily up to date, or that they exclude network components and that if you dont physically locate the service yourself you will be held liable for the damage...

I have come across one mob that sends out a technician (its a gas company).

Chris

dingo

G'day Apocolypsse,

What you say makes perfect sense, cant say why i didnt think of it. Much easier to do that than to try find the darned cables/pipes and check where they are going.

I noticed on Erics website he says he accepts no responsibility for damage to services, I wonder how that works????

Thanks
Chris

Eric Frei

It works really well, you ask me to grind there so you are responsible. I ensure I bring your attention to the fact of the disclaimer and if you want a guarantee then you get the pipe and services surveyed at your cost.

In these two pictures taken recently pay attention.

New house, new street.

Builder is putting in the driveway, as you know it's only 100mm deep.

Builder scrapes for driveway and runs into:-

• stump (which he knew about and lucky he didn't pull it)
• fibre optic cable

They could not pull the stump out due to roots etc busting the fibre optic cable so they call me in to stump grind it. I carefully grind it and get it down to the rest of the grade without touching that conduit the fibre optic is in. As you know if I licked that conduit it may have pulled into the machine and mangled the fibre optic cable.

This of course is all on the footpath section and how deep is all this supposed to be?

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Apocalypsse

The maps aren't always up to date and are a mindfrak to read if you aren't familiar with the layout. I once did some stumps for a Landscaper and he was telling how he called Dial Before You Dig and they told him the gas line was 600mm down, he was scraping away with his bobcat, 300mm down hit the gas main. Had to pay the callout for the fire brigade, fine for hitting the thing even though he was given incorrect info. Always be careful, try a similar setup to Eric to best protect yourself.

TrevMcRev

I put it back on them too. We will be the judge of the extent safely done, if the want more, it's on them.

Anyone use a simple metal detector?

Daniel Janjic

Thanks Trev, I have been searching for a reason to get a metal detector to take away on "jobs"!

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Cheer's

Dano

http://www.treelove.com.au

dingo

Hey Fellas,

Thanks for the feedback on my question. Trev and Eric, Im just wondering about the legal mechanics of this type of scenario.... do you get the client to sign a disclaimer before works commence? If so is that on all jobs or just where you deem there is a risk?

Cheers
Chris

Apocalypsse

Not sure how much use that is going to be now. New houses have PVC pipes, new gas lines are that rubber stuff, not sure what's used for underground telecom/power to the house.

Eric Frei

It's printed on the quote form, and I make sure they understand it. Every quote, every job, they all have it.

Legally, they can try but I doubt they'll get anywhere, they'd be fighting my insurance company for damages over $1000.

For damages under they'd have to sue.

If they refuse to pay because something was damaged (providing stump grind completed) I'd have no hesitation in suing them, and I'd win. It's not fine print, in fact it is larger print than some of the other details.

Cases under $7500 are fought in small debts court with no lawyers, seldom will you grind a stump worth more than that. If they argue that $800 damage resulted from a $200 stump grind and refuse to pay for the stump grind ... I'd sue them for my $200. They could argue all they like but they went ahead knowing the terms, the onus is on them to survey their pipes and services. Some real clever customers will say "just grind 100mm deep mate" and lets say you went 120mm and hit a pipe it's on your neck, stump grinders are not precision machines where we know to the millimetre the depth we've ground, those people also get the riot act.

You're there to make a profit not an insurance claim or pay damages. The more the customer tries to stack the blame on you the more the warning bells should be sounding. I'm not going to shell out $200 in pipes surveys to get paid $150 for grinding a stump, they should.

Sure you will get customers that would prefer to take the fool who'll fork out for damages, one fool I witnessed was more than prepared to grind around a pool with known pipes and even bragged to the customer that he'd repair any damage etc..... nothing new about fools in the tree game is there. I walked away and the customer thought I was an ass but customers like that, who wants them, they need the fools out there to work for them.

what about when the stump has foreign material in it and I bust teeth, do they pay for that? Nope.

When a stump had a steel rod in it and I bent a cutter shaft which cost $1500 to repair, did they pay for that? Nope.

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Daniel Janjic

Lots of jobs at old houses and properties iny area, where the problems are old water pipes, horse shoes, bolts, gate hinges, star posts, you name it. They really can fly well once the grinder picks them up, and other damage caused by them isn't covered by the waiver, not to mention danger to myself.

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Cheer's

Dano

http://www.treelove.com.au

Drouin Tree Service

I hit a 2 peice old phone line under a stump.Had a disclaimer stating the owner is responsible they would not pay telstra just kept giving telstra my details.
Telstra do not enter into third party agreements had advice from my solicitor to make an offer to pay half on grounds telstra was part negligent on line being to shallow they accepted i paid $450 telstra you hit you pay.

Attached Files

PM98703_DrouinTree_150409.pdf (76.8 KB, 41 views)

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Apocalypsse

Same deal in my old job, for the most part we dug up old metal parts for horses & the old wine barrels, the metal rings on those used as edging.

Brent Ferris

Here in Ontario, if you call they will come and locate the cable for you, but if it within 3 feet of the stump, you're required to hand dig out the stump. If you decide to grind it out, you take the hit if you hit the cable, pipe etc. So i charge more for hand digging, and I prefer to take down the tree and take out the stump if it needs to be hand dug. I almost never get only big stumps to hand dig -- and that is Ok with me.
If i'm just grinding a stump, and hit steel or buried material, or even stuff that's partly visible but is embedded in the stump, my contract specifies I expect the homeowner to pay for damage to the teeth or machine. And some stumps have had unexpected materials, and the owners have paid. I make a point of pointing out that possibility ahead of time, and like to get then to initial that part before I start.

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If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
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Eric Frei

Yes, as expected you still had the legal right to recover your loss from your client, I would have, sick of free loaders and anti-tippers.

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Apocalypsse

I thought free loaders were bad when I was working on my previous crew, now working as a council contractor everyone expects you to take their stuff for nothing, some even expect you to cut down their trees for nothing. Never really seen any tipping, its always been the HO brings out some food or drinks, that was really the tip for us. Whats the rules with tipping anyway? Minimum tip/etc?

Back on topic, treeshaveneeds has a good system going there, especially with the client having to initial the contract prior to works.

Brent Ferris

I saw some tipping 2007 and before. The recession killed that idea. Heartfelt thanks is the way now - almost as good. Sometimes get a snack or something from the HO - always tell them it's a big treat (and it is - almost never offered) and they are almost always shocked.

As for the initial before start work, just tell the client the insurance doesn't apply unless they initial the contract -- haven't had one refuse yet ) As a bonus, Good for slow payers later. And if they did refuse? I would be very leery about working for them.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)