Storms| cyclones| tree species suitability

Garry Brockley

Hey Eric are you ok after those storms they looked severe

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Eric Frei

Not a leaf off the trees here mate, was just one suburb got hit, what do they call it, a microburst etc.

Still, been pissing down 2 days since now. No wind though, just steady rain, rain and more rain ... might as well be England!

Every man and his dog over there getting their fill.

Some pics in the PDF attached.

Attached Files

Brisbane Storm 16 Nov 2008_1.pdf (1.13 MB, 89 views)

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Done it

So they're still driving EH Holdens up there.

Channel 7 made it out to be a lot bigger, maybe because their building got flooded. Get any work out of it or not near you?

We get them like that here, flatten one street and gone. Had 6 inches of hail on the back of my truck once, could only just make out the tail lights of the car in front, trees down everywhere, 1km away didn't even rain. Got a bit of work out of that one.

Eric Frei

Not much, other side of town, but the rain isn't making it easy for people to get out and have a look.

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Drouin Tree Service

Many storm chasers??

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

newguy18

coo lpics,espically the lighting strikes,think it'll bring you alot of work?Man i wish a big storm would come through and hit live oak.

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old schooler

Oldtimer

Nice photos EKKA. Looks like nature was doing a little bit of rearranging trees around there. Hope everyone is safe and getting soem extar work on the clean up.

Eric Frei

Went out and got some pics, and some work.

300 Army has been deployed to assist. As I type another front is moving in. It's like a war zone out there, incredible!

We have been getting tons of rain, 110mm last night but the wind isn't there.

See what tonight holds.

Series of pics coming.





Leopard trees snapped like tooth pics












Not everyone could pay some of the rip off pricing getting around, this guy improvised to get the hangers out.




Palms faired well, fronds got snapped off this cuban.

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Eric Frei

Army guys taking a break, only the engineers allowed to use the chainsaws.




Take a look at the diameter euc trees snapped like tooth pics.


Leopard tree (Brazilian Iron Wood, Caesalpina ferrea) snapped easily whilst house destroyed.


This was similar to a tornado, it cut a path maybe 1km wide and a few Km's deep through two suburbs, The Gap and Ferny Grove.

After the debri cleanup will come the tree clean up. Many have lost their entire crowns, no foliage as you can see. Whilst Nevil Faye might think it's OK and Treeseer recommend some node pruning I see tons of removals as who is going to manage a bunch of epicormics 50'+ high up a euc. That will tomorrows disaster trying to "save" some of the busted up trees.

To live with trees is a risk, to live without them is less a risk. What was spared, what was stronger, what was safer?

None, but palms fared well.

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TreeDimensional

Great pictures Ekka, as long as it is someone else's home. That storm is like the ones we are having here in the summer, not very large in the terms of area, BUT extremely intense where it does hit.

I am interested in your comment about the damage by the trees vs what it would have been like in a tree barren area. Would there have been as catastrophic damage by the wind alone? (ie. roofs torn off) Would it be fair to say that the trees caused significant damage, BUT they abated (deflected) a lot of wind that could have really turned the scenario into the Wizard of OZ? You know, Dorthy and Toto................

Terrible to see people displaced, but glad it wasn't worse!

Garry Brockley

Eric was this leopard tree topped before the storm hit? those poor people no house left, after a minor storm really only two burbs hit thats good fortune for the rest of you. i hope your ok tonight.
Is the rain falling in the catchment areas?

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Eric Frei

Copped a doozy last night around midnight, not a lot of wind again but we got 90mm rain.

Brent, I didn't say barren landscape just smaller trees would be wiser. Not many houses lost roofs. Flat roofed houses always higher risk, known fact. Flat iron roof probably worst (which that house was). Tiles here on roofs are all wired down individually or should be due to cyclone wind area.

Glabee, the trees weren't previously topped, just snapped off.

Yes, water is going in dams but we are still only 42% capacity, however the next 3 months is our wet season with storms a standard issue most late afternoons and the occasional bad one once a week. We have been missing out on these storms for some time now, maybe 4 years, it's the norm to a degree and the writing on the wall for people to start looking at the trees in their yards.

The ground now is soaked, very wet. If a decent wind pipes up there will be sheer root plate failures, but things dry out here fast enough too. Couple days of sunshine and all will be OK.

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TreeDimensional

Sorry Ekka, what my mind is thinking doesn't always make it to the keyboard. What I was asking was, if there wasn't trees (barren landscape) would the wind damage have caused as much damage?

The incidence of micro-bursts has increased here dramatically in the last 4 years. Three years ago we were called to look at a MAJOR job. To my surprise there where spruce trees (12" dia) sheared off 10 feet above the ground. The same narrow streak, hit another town, and up rooted 60" DBH trees. Ya want to talk about aerating the sub soil of a whole back yard.

The next year it was our turn, the one park we work in looked as if a nuclear explosion had happened. I have some newspaper clipping, that I should scan and put up.

As I understand it, not many people have basements in your part of the world. Makes getting out of the way an bit more difficult.

newguy18

At least the army guys wear ppe.

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old schooler

Sean Freeman

There comes a point in a severe wind event that the loading on even undamaged healthy trees leads to their failure, then the debris from that failed tree add to the flying shrapnel and the devastation....at that point in such winds for me it is really irrelevant wether trees are there or not, massive damage is going to and does occur...anyone wanting data on this just has to read the JCU final report on cyclone Larry.

Before you reach that catstrophic wind loading, and yes wind loading is very localised and variable within any storm system, healthy trees can and do act as filters tot he airborne debris,this has been seen in nearly all wind events and cyclones.

Whether in the end one role balances out the other for me is not the point, we want trees (most of us) in our communities for all of the huge benefits they provide, and when these terrible storm events occur yes there will be failures of trees, many very predictable (after the fact) due to previous damage some not, but the thought of only having small shrubs and trees in our urban landscape because of the impact of such storms is not one I support.

Personally I feel a great deal more thought and planning is needed when deciding on how existing and future streetscapes are to be managed, the impacts of kerb and channel, driveways, inground services,grade level changes, extreme compaction and altered moisture levels have for far too long been ignored as serious impacts on tree health......all of the major studies done in Australia analysing tree failures (See G Moore's colaborative work through 1999-2006 Melbourne Uni available on TreeNet) in storm events points directly and unambiguously to those factors being the major precurser to failure.

Eric Frei

There'd be a lot of people who'd argue that point now, including insurance companies.

After catastophic events like this you watch the volume of take downs occur on healthy trees due to fear/safety ... if the trees aren't protected they'll be getting removed where people can afford to do so. Just the way it is.

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TreeDimensional

I hope there isn't a mass slaughter on unprotected trees, the rewards from them far out weigh the risks. A proper shelter belt here can reduce the wind by as much as 50%. The shade can save energy bills dramatically, and finally IF they want to live in a barren wasteland like me, have 'em give me a call, we can work out the term for the title transfer.

NO secret, I HATE the wind. I blows here ALL the time. One severe weather event every 50 years shouldn't be taken out on the remaining un-protected trees.

Sean Freeman

I know Eric it happens up here every year running into cyclone season, the same rubbish about lopping trees for safety before the blow....

Look I understand perfectly why the media love the storm events and why they love to focus on the smashed house, downed power lines the killer trees...

Sadly I have never heard the same volume and frequency of stories about the values of our urban forest how they hold a hope for reducing our combine carbon footprint..they importance to healthy lives in dense urban developments. I have only twice in twenty years heard voices of reason after storm events explaining why certain trees have failed, and balancing the knee jerk reaction with logic and rational thought.

Having dealt with a number of insurance companies in Qld in relation to trees, both storm related and not, I have very little sympathy for their attitude, and their ignorance in the face of qualified experienced advice.

TrevMcRev

And the wineer of the 2008 QLD Throwline competition is...........

TreeDimensional

Trev, I think the gear committee may have an issue with the 1/4 line, the 5 lb weight AND the konk that may happen with the optional wide brim hardhat.

This could be a candidate for the Dawin award.

I would like to think that "if it doesn't kill ya , it will make you stronger" well probably NOT in this case!

Sean Freeman

All kidding aside, hoping that all my SE Qld colleagues stay safe for the next three days, the weather you guys are having is no joke. I got out late last night and reckon I'm lucky to be up north, since I doubt the train line from Robina is open tonight.

Looking at the radar, between Logan and Brissy is getting well hammered, keep yourselves safe and dry.

The forecast for Sat is not good at all, really hoping the met guys have it wrong.

Eric Frei

Yeah got hammered twice last night, hail!

ICB tunnel flooded with major traffic jams in city yesterday and Ole Ekka had quotes in Herston around 4pm!

City Cat ferries only operating daylight hours due to the volume of debri washed down Brisbane River.

But sunny skies this morning.

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newguy18

Man i'm jealous,you and treevet get storms during slow season,i wish a nasty storm would tear hell outta live oak so i could stay busy.

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old schooler

Don Ross

Eric,
I have sent the following picture to the Premier so as people can understand that people must have some control over unsafe trees which can cause them to be without a roof in recent storms.

Ciao Don Ross

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Eric Frei

True, that council changed it's stance what trees were protected after that incident.

The 45 degree angle rule basically means if the tree can strike your home it is not protected and purely at your discretion whether or not you live with it .... pity it cost a man's life though for the changes.

Now it would be interesting to see if there was a whole sale logging of urban yards or not following that change.

I know other cities in the USA that contemplate bringing in tree protection laws get a lot of resistance, and people actually start doing lots of removals whenever the subject comes up, because they fear at some stage down the track they might lose the decision.

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Sean Freeman

My recollection of the Shoalhaven case is somewhat different in that the legal issue was whether council had actually inspected the tree, who actually did the inspection, how it was recorded and what action if any was recommended....and whether the existing process was a defensible approach to tree risk management.

My memory could be playing tricks it was about 3yrs ago a seminar from Tree Logic "Trees and the Law" a number of professionals presenting, solicitors, insurance companies, council officers.

Have not heard of anything like the 45 degree rule, seems like a great way to potentially 'justify' the removal of a vast number of urban trees.

Eric Frei

It's all on this forum somewhere Sean.

Initially the council won, then there was an appeal and the council lost. The council BSed about the inspection as there were no official records .... tried the old denial didn't happen trick.

However in the appeal eye witnesses came forward, phone call logs etc and proved the council did come and inspect, on more than one occasion and did a half assed job and told the owners the tree had to stay.

All the more reason why councils should mind their own business and not assess private trees, they sent some-one without the skills nor the experience who made a half assed call and they backed it, too bad. The 45 degree angle then came in so council has no responsibility in the process.

Hey Sean, remember Mattheck 2004 at the Grand Chancellor Hotel in Brisbane? I dont recall if it were you with me in small group out the front (Leichhardt St) and I said the Bunya in the footpath out the front displayed lots of poor VTA symptoms ... had a sheer bomb crack right the way through, opening, dirt and termite activity. Anyway, fell over 2 days ago! Funny eh, 50 council people all standing there no-one gives a crap.

Full story here. Prof. Dr. Claus Mattheck| Tree Failure at training venue 2004 Brisbane Visit

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Sean Freeman

Yes I remember the seminar/workshop but not that particular tree, doesn't surprise me though (the failure that is!) A lot of potentially (genetically big trees in small soil volumes with masses of in ground services in that area.

Eric Frei

Some media links about the storms.

Looks like council reviewing their tree protection laws.

Brisbane council to review policy on risky trees | The Courier-Mail
I like some of the comments like this one.

Heartbreak in Elgata St, The Gap | The Courier-Mail

Wicked Weather | Queensland Weather | The Courier-Mail

Some YouTube action!

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Sean Freeman

Its incredible we manage to survive, trees being such dangerous things and all....