Specify your stump grinding depth or else

Eric Frei · 31st July 2009, 04:50 PM

You'll end up like this guy ... Bernie Kuczek Jr. of Twin Swan Tree Service and Stump Removal in Scotia.

Tree stump job offers a grinding problem -- Page 1 -- Times Union - Albany NY:2646:

Quote:

The maple tree Dick and Ellen Barber planted in the yard of their new Colonie home 40 years ago served their family well, drinking up excess moisture in the soil and shading their house on hot summer days.

But the tree's height and proximity to the house recently began to worry Dick, especially after he saw other trees and branches come crashing down in last winter's ice storm. So, this spring, the retired couple hired a tree service to take down the old maple and called in another contractor recommended by their son to remove the stump.

Now, they're fuming that the remains of the stump still lurk a scant inch below the surface and are kicking themselves for taking the last phase of the job so casually. They're out $270, struggling to grow grass on that spot and have lost count of how many messages they've left on the Scotia contractor's answering machine asking him to do the right thing and finish the job.

The contractor, meanwhile, says he did exactly what he was hired to do.

With so much of the stump left, the Barbers expect it to rot away gradually, feeding generations of mushrooms and creating a new sink hole after each fresh layer of soil and seed is applied.

"What bugs me the most is being taken," said Dick.

"We thought we were not susceptible," Ellen added.

They trace the root of their dissatisfaction, in part, to bad timing.

The Barbers and the contractor, Bernie Kuczek Jr. of Twin Swan Tree Service and Stump Removal in Scotia, hadn't set a specific date for the work in April. As it happened, Kuczek arrived just as the Barbers were leaving for an appointment with Ellen's eye doctor.

When they returned, they were surprised to find that the work appeared complete and Kuczek was gone. They saw no stump and later sent a check for $270, including tax, to Twin Swan.

Then, "in May, I kept seeing this puddle of water where the stump had been," Dick recalled. A closer look revealed that the stump surface was only about an inch below the yard surface, and Dick called to complain.

This is where the Barbers' account starts to differ sharply with Kuczek's. Dick Barber says Kuczek first called back to say he'd be back by the end of the week to take out more of the stump. Kuczek says he made no such promise and said only "we always put our best foot forward."

"We met that request at the price we agreed on," Kuczek told me. "Now, he's asking us to do more work for free."

Kuczek said he warned Barber that he'd need to bring in topsoil if he wanted grass to grow over the remains of the huge stump. "Our stump grinder doesn't grind dirt. It's not a grading machine," he said, but "we raked it off nice and it was contoured beautifully."

This seems like a case in which basic buyer-beware precautions and good faith customer service could have saved grief for both the Barbers and Kuczek.

Perhaps because Kuczek was recommended by their son, the Barbers skipped steps that consumer advocates recommend. They didn't get a detailed written estimate or contract, which could have helped establish now what was agreed to then. As they ?acknowledge, they should have checked to ensure that they were satisfied before paying. Keeping a log of all their follow-up calls to Twin Swan also would have been a good idea.

For his part, Kuczek shouldn't have blown off the Barbers' calls, even if they had already paid him. Amazingly, even when he talked to me, he still wouldn't commit to returning to Dick Barber's yard to discuss a resolution.

"I don't mind working with him," Kuczak said, but only "if he's willing to work with me."

I asked around a bit about stump removal standards. What I learned reinforced my belief that it's important to detail expectations in writing, though I'm told that's not common for such jobs.

"You do want to get the stump out as far below the grade as you can," said David Chinery, a Cornell Cooperative Extension educator for Rensselaer County. "Nobody wants a hole in their lawn. That's as bad as a stump. To grow grass, you would like at least 3 or 4 inches of soil, and if you had 6 or 8 inches, that would be good."

Chinery said he's had many stumps removed from his own property and the depth has varied quite a bit from tree to tree.

Chuck Maynard, a professor who teaches arborculture at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry, found no industry standard but said a contractor told him 3-to-4 inches below grade is routine to make sure a topsoil layer will support new grass.

The Barbers' backyard neighbor, Ron Gruhn, said a contractor that removed a maple stump on his property went much farther, even tunneling down to grind out roots -- and Gruhn watched him do it.

"Any time I have anything done, I stand there," he said.

Personally I grind deep all the time, don't like hauntings like this, 1" deep is a joke though, what about the bullshit about it not grinding soil.

stirmantrees · 1st August 2009, 12:53 PM

better specify if your hauling the mulch as well. Nothing like grinding a 3 footer really deep and having them look at you like your nuts for leaving the shavings. Around here it is standard to leave the shavings. I have it on my proposals that stump shavings will be raked into hole unless OTHERWISE specified. I make it a habit to offer to haul the shavings as an extra or for an additional price

. I also specify depth on the bid.

Location dictates depth sometimes, as well as future plans for the area.(replanting, underground utilities, concrete

, structures, etc)

wow 1 inch. i dont need a stump grinder anymore. just a shovel, hose, and a sharp chain

Drouin Tree Service · 1st August 2009, 12:56 PM

Thats the best part of a tow behind grinder its all gone easily if that what there paying for,Im not interested in stump jobs that you cant get a big machine to theres little or no profit in them even when owner operating IMHO.

Apocalypsse · 2nd August 2009, 08:06 AM

We always ask how deep do they want us to go and if there are any pipes/cables underneath.

@a_lopa - We used to get heaps of jobs with our Dosko until it took a trip off its trailer, theres heaps of work around for it, sometimes its the only way stumps can be done.

TrevMcRev · 2nd August 2009, 12:37 PM

Same here, it's different doing residential work in the 'burbs alopa, about 70% of our stumps have to be done with the Stumphumper because even the Rayco 1625a can't get to them. You just have to charge enough to cover the time taken with the machine that can access it. It's not like you're gonna get undercut by a guy with a big tow-behind because he cant do it at all.

Gunslinger · 2nd August 2009, 11:55 PM

Caveat Emptor. Sounds to me like he got what he paid for. Isn't $270 kind of cheap for grinding a 40 year old stump even if it's only 1" below the surface?

Apocalypsse · 3rd August 2009, 07:30 AM

Thats kinda expensive. I dont know the going rate for other companies but our average price for a large stump is like 1/3 or even 1/4 of that, of course it can be more depending on where it is and how much of an ass the owner is.

Gunslinger · 3rd August 2009, 07:45 AM

How long would it take to grind a stump that size?

Eric Frei · 3rd August 2009, 07:58 AM

It's only maple, that size I'd do a proper grind atleast 9" deep for around the same money if not less.

Something wrong if it took longer than 1 hour so 1hour with callout, no rocks, steel, debris etc easy grind.

TrevMcRev · 3rd August 2009, 01:57 PM

Also, depth is one thing diameter is another...

How far do you go chasing roots???

I've had similar call backs and when you get there it's because they found a root near the surface 5 foot away from the stump!

Some people think that magically any material that belonged to the tree that is underground anywhere in there entire yard should have been removed.

Urban Treecare NZ · 3rd August 2009, 06:02 PM

I always specify that the grind will be 300mm below ground level and no tracers unless right on the surface, otherwise you can grind their whole lawn!!! Depends on location and if planting is required aswell....

Apocalypsse · 3rd August 2009, 08:02 PM

We dont chase roots unless its really obvious and next to the stump, root chasing = go find someone who specialises in it.

TrevMcRev · 3rd August 2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocalypsse

We dont chase roots unless its really obvious and next to the stump, root chasing = go find someone who specialises in it.

Nothing wrong with chasing a root is there

Eric Frei · 3rd August 2009, 09:50 PM

Unless they're big fat ugly roots eh.

Apocalypsse · 5th August 2009, 07:19 AM

LOL, that reminds me of a job we done in some units, removals + stumps. 2 smoking hot girls living together and I swear they were lesbians, they were cloooooose and soo damn hot. But then you get some suburbs where the women arent so good looking.

stirmantrees · 5th August 2009, 12:57 PM

i usually tell them that we would have to annihilate there entire yard to even attempt to grind the entire root system. I f they have me chase more than I was proposing to do I grind to that point and tell them they are responsible for any damage to there utilities, sprinklers, septic, ect. That usually stops it right there. If there is a lot of bumpy roots i have the owner number with paint prior to grind (1,2,3,etc) Then i say is that all of them? then proceed to finish and when i hit 12,8, or whatever I know i'm done. Then it becomes extra. This is very rare though.

What about dynamite. Or bring in a stinkin excavator when they get lippy and just smear there entire front yard into a pile and say there you go, i think we got it.

Jeff Darby · 6th August 2009, 06:27 AM

We allways specify how deep we will grind the stump, thats a stump grinding job.

If they want the roots gone, well thats stump removal another job more intense than just stump grinding, on this job we specify the radius of the stump to be removed and also the min dia of the roots to be severed or removed and whos taking care of the bloody great lump of stump that we pop out of the ground.

Dont forget to ring "Dial before you dig", at the least your butt will be covered if you hit underground utilities.

We have a small push pull stump grinder Rayco 13 and I tell you it gets bloody hard tag teaming to get through a big stump, so we charge accordingly. If the reward is not worth your sweat (time) why do it?

Grindings from the stump go back into the hole, you cant leave a great hole in some ones yard, it becomes an OH&S issue, just be upfront with you client and all will be good.

Drouin Tree Service · 6th August 2009, 08:28 AM

I did a few big stump yesterday total of 4.5 meters of grinding took 20 minutes,The client was peaved i charged him $250,Would have been most of the day with the 25hp rayco.

Then i went and did 6 largish stumps for $300 in 20-30mins and the client was thrilled it was done so quick and there right out....cant please them all!!!

Eric Frei · 6th August 2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a_lopa

I did a few big stump yesterday total of 4.5 meters of grinding took 20 minutes,The client was peaved i charged him $250,Would have been most of the day with the 25hp rayco.

Then i went and did 6 largish stumps for $300 in 20-30mins and the client was thrilled it was done so quick and there right out....cant please them all!!!

Ironic isn't it, with the first guy had you have taken all day and struggled with a small machine and ended up with the same result (stumps gone) ... the client most likely would have been very happy, funny how some peoples brains work eh!

Drouin Tree Service · 6th August 2009, 09:42 PM

Especially when you have qouted and there happy with the price,You buy better machinery to charge less right

I always charge cheapskates more as there customers i only want ONCE.

Steve Tipton · 6th August 2009, 10:21 PM

I usually quote to grind stump and [B]VISIBLE surface roots 250mm (10") below ground level, unless client requires full removal.

Apocalypsse · 8th August 2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Dont forget to ring "Dial before you dig", at the least your butt will be covered if you hit underground utilities.

You aint covered unless theres a Dial Before You Dig rep there with you watching you. If there isnt one there and you hit something its all on you. Done some stumps for a landcaper a while ago and he had a similar issue, he was digging with the bobcat, DBYD said gas was 600 deep, he hit them @ 300 deep, high pressure. He had to pay a fine for hitting them THEN had to pay the fire fighters for the call out... Needless to say he told them where to go.

Paul Toivonen · 5th February 2012, 12:53 PM

I someone do a hedge removal and grind couple stumps for me once.
Asked them if their machine could do 300mm below soil level as I had to plant out on top of them.
They turn up with a hand operated grinder (non-hydraulic)I nearly laughed when I saw it.
As they were pretty new to the game I said nothing, we ended up getting an excavator in to do the job properly.

Brent Ferris · 7th February 2012, 03:44 AM

I specify 8 inches below grade, exposed roots more, take the excess chips/shavings away, warn them that mushrooms are inevitable unless all chips go for higher price. Seldom have any complaints, Lately though, -- last 3-4 years -- we have been hand-digging all stumps, since can't get a machine to the site.

1st August 2009, 12:53 PM	#2
stirmantrees Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: oviedo, fl Posts: 469	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else better specify if your hauling the mulch as well. Nothing like grinding a 3 footer really deep and having them look at you like your nuts for leaving the shavings. Around here it is standard to leave the shavings. I have it on my proposals that stump shavings will be raked into hole unless OTHERWISE specified. I make it a habit to offer to haul the shavings as an extra or for an additional price. I also specify depth on the bid. Location dictates depth sometimes, as well as future plans for the area.(replanting, underground utilities, concrete, structures, etc) wow 1 inch. i dont need a stump grinder anymore. just a shovel, hose, and a sharp chain

1st August 2009, 12:56 PM	#3
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,728	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Thats the best part of a tow behind grinder its all gone easily if that what there paying for,Im not interested in stump jobs that you cant get a big machine to theres little or no profit in them even when owner operating IMHO. __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

2nd August 2009, 08:06 AM	#4
Apocalypsse Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,152	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else We always ask how deep do they want us to go and if there are any pipes/cables underneath. @a_lopa - We used to get heaps of jobs with our Dosko until it took a trip off its trailer, theres heaps of work around for it, sometimes its the only way stumps can be done.

2nd August 2009, 12:37 PM	#5
TrevMcRev Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,594	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Same here, it's different doing residential work in the 'burbs alopa, about 70% of our stumps have to be done with the Stumphumper because even the Rayco 1625a can't get to them. You just have to charge enough to cover the time taken with the machine that can access it. It's not like you're gonna get undercut by a guy with a big tow-behind because he cant do it at all.

2nd August 2009, 11:55 PM	#6
Gunslinger Mature tree Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 263	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Caveat Emptor. Sounds to me like he got what he paid for. Isn't $270 kind of cheap for grinding a 40 year old stump even if it's only 1" below the surface?

3rd August 2009, 07:30 AM	#7
Apocalypsse Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,152	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Thats kinda expensive. I dont know the going rate for other companies but our average price for a large stump is like 1/3 or even 1/4 of that, of course it can be more depending on where it is and how much of an ass the owner is.

3rd August 2009, 07:45 AM	#8
Gunslinger Mature tree Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 263	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else How long would it take to grind a stump that size?

3rd August 2009, 07:58 AM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,996	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else It's only maple, that size I'd do a proper grind atleast 9" deep for around the same money if not less. Something wrong if it took longer than 1 hour so 1hour with callout, no rocks, steel, debris etc easy grind. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

3rd August 2009, 01:57 PM	#10
TrevMcRev Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 1,594	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Also, depth is one thing diameter is another... How far do you go chasing roots??? I've had similar call backs and when you get there it's because they found a root near the surface 5 foot away from the stump! Some people think that magically any material that belonged to the tree that is underground anywhere in there entire yard should have been removed.

3rd August 2009, 06:02 PM	#11
Urban Treecare NZ Certificate in Horticulture (Level 4) + Diploma in Arboriculture (Level 6) Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 256	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else I always specify that the grind will be 300mm below ground level and no tracers unless right on the surface, otherwise you can grind their whole lawn!!! Depends on location and if planting is required aswell.... __________________ www.urbantree.co.nz www.urbantreecare.co.nz

3rd August 2009, 08:02 PM	#12
Apocalypsse Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,152	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else We dont chase roots unless its really obvious and next to the stump, root chasing = go find someone who specialises in it.

3rd August 2009, 09:50 PM	#14
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,996	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Unless they're big fat ugly roots eh. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

5th August 2009, 07:19 AM	#15
Apocalypsse Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 1,152	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else LOL, that reminds me of a job we done in some units, removals + stumps. 2 smoking hot girls living together and I swear they were lesbians, they were cloooooose and soo damn hot. But then you get some suburbs where the women arent so good looking.

5th August 2009, 12:57 PM	#16
stirmantrees Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: oviedo, fl Posts: 469	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else i usually tell them that we would have to annihilate there entire yard to even attempt to grind the entire root system. I f they have me chase more than I was proposing to do I grind to that point and tell them they are responsible for any damage to there utilities, sprinklers, septic, ect. That usually stops it right there. If there is a lot of bumpy roots i have the owner number with paint prior to grind (1,2,3,etc) Then i say is that all of them? then proceed to finish and when i hit 12,8, or whatever I know i'm done. Then it becomes extra. This is very rare though. What about dynamite. Or bring in a stinkin excavator when they get lippy and just smear there entire front yard into a pile and say there you go, i think we got it.

6th August 2009, 06:27 AM	#17
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else We allways specify how deep we will grind the stump, thats a stump grinding job. If they want the roots gone, well thats stump removal another job more intense than just stump grinding, on this job we specify the radius of the stump to be removed and also the min dia of the roots to be severed or removed and whos taking care of the bloody great lump of stump that we pop out of the ground. Dont forget to ring "Dial before you dig", at the least your butt will be covered if you hit underground utilities. We have a small push pull stump grinder Rayco 13 and I tell you it gets bloody hard tag teaming to get through a big stump, so we charge accordingly. If the reward is not worth your sweat (time) why do it? Grindings from the stump go back into the hole, you cant leave a great hole in some ones yard, it becomes an OH&S issue, just be upfront with you client and all will be good. __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

6th August 2009, 08:28 AM	#18
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,728	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else I did a few big stump yesterday total of 4.5 meters of grinding took 20 minutes,The client was peaved i charged him $250,Would have been most of the day with the 25hp rayco. Then i went and did 6 largish stumps for $300 in 20-30mins and the client was thrilled it was done so quick and there right out....cant please them all!!! __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

6th August 2009, 09:42 PM	#20
Drouin Tree Service Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,728	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else Especially when you have qouted and there happy with the price,You buy better machinery to charge less right I always charge cheapskates more as there customers i only want ONCE. __________________ Drouin Tree Services \| Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland \| Landclearing Melbourne

6th August 2009, 10:21 PM	#21
Steve Tipton Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 821	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else I usually quote to grind stump and [B]VISIBLE surface roots 250mm (10") below ground level, unless client requires full removal. __________________ Heightmaster

5th February 2012, 12:53 PM	#23
Paul Toivonen Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: AUS Posts: 134	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else I someone do a hedge removal and grind couple stumps for me once. Asked them if their machine could do 300mm below soil level as I had to plant out on top of them. They turn up with a hand operated grinder (non-hydraulic)I nearly laughed when I saw it. As they were pretty new to the game I said nothing, we ended up getting an excavator in to do the job properly.

7th February 2012, 03:44 AM	#24
Brent Ferris Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,557	Re: Specify your stump grinding depth or else I specify 8 inches below grade, exposed roots more, take the excess chips/shavings away, warn them that mushrooms are inevitable unless all chips go for higher price. Seldom have any complaints, Lately though, -- last 3-4 years -- we have been hand-digging all stumps, since can't get a machine to the site. __________________ My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports Consulting Forester If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too ! We do great jobs, even in small yards. Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered) Email -- treeshaveneeds@3web.com Cell 416-460-5704

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