so called "arborists"

chadd

today i had to desecrate several trees at an apartment complex as per order of the strata. i salvage what i could, but in the end the trees were topped, quite low, and over thinned.
a women on the strata board claimed to be an arborist and explained why this was the best thing to do.
this is the second time i had to return to the building because i refused to do such work the first time. they added a great deal to the original quote and expected it for free. i returned with a ridiculously high quote in hopes not to return.

well today i tested my patience and reluctantly ruined several trees for a view. i tried to do a nice job but was told i didn't know what i was talking about and that she had been an isa certified arborist for 20 years. in frustration i did as request, wanting to move my trucks down the street.

so my question is how do people with no relevant experience and no clue about the tree and it's health become arborists?

does this happen else where in the world or are we just a bunch of dumb canucks?

to make it better, she told that she does evaluations for one of the major cities that has incredible street trees and very well maintained parks with several of there own arborists and representatives.

chadd

and to add, this is not the first time by a long shot i have had to deal with this. and i have heard many stories from other companies as well.

Eric Frei

I believe you answered the question prior, you did write this.

Couldn't miss that opportunity could I.

It does happen, and because nobody's challenging it and shoving it in their face and the authorities faces.

You can check her certification online, then if that matches and she isn't BSing then you send the ISA a link to this post with the pictures of what you did on her instruction (pictures yet to be added but I'm sure you will do it soon)

If she is ISA then she'll get into some hot water.

If she is not ISA then you need to inform all other body corporate members of the lie and malpractice.

I suppose another easy way out is do nothing and walk away like 99.9% of most tree people, after all you did do the job and get paid right.

Also upon finding out the truth of her certification then you need to advise that other city she consults for, they need to know they have a wolf at the door.

And putting all the facts in here is a start, then you simply link to the thread, and also like media the story is out, the cover up exposed.

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treeseer

"pictures yet to be added but I'm sure you will do it soon

yes it's impossible to know wha tyou are talking about without them. knowing about the other "view" on this would also be needed to start judging. also did you submit a proposal for thinning instead of topping to achieve their goals?

"If she is ISA then she'll get into some hot water.

who would light the fire? there is no enforcement of work standards that i know of.

"And putting all the facts in here is a start, then you simply link to the thread

Yes, facts please not just feelings. It's no fun being dissed or used to do butchery, but let's see the whole story, ok?

this member code does not apply to certification, which has no separate code i know of.

ISA Code of Ethics

Adopted August 1992

ISA members will:

Strive for continuous self-development by increasing their qualifications and technical proficiency by staying abreast of technological and scientific developments affecting the profession.

Not misuse or omit material facts in promoting technical information, products or services if the effect would be to mislead or misrepresent.

Hold paramount the safety and health of all people and endeavor to protect property and the environment in the performance of professional responsibilities.

Subscribe to fair and honest business practices in dealing with clients, suppliers, employees and other professionals.

Support the improvement of professional services and products through encouraging research and development.

Observe the standards and promote adherence to the ethics embodied in this Code.

Eric Frei

Some questions.

Can some-one become ISA Certified Arborist without being a member?

Can some-one get CEU's and continuity of Certification without being a member?

Sure, once some-one gets their certification there's no saying they'll do the right thing, and I doubt anyone can pull their certification. And if they can be certified and not have to adhere to a code of ethics that's very comfortable.

So, if the case is that she did top the trees it's down to local ordinances, if there's none then there's only civil action and hopefully Canada has some sort of Pruning Standard.

Otherwise what you have is Certified Butchery, get the cert, advertise for work as a professional arborist and take the easy road with complying to client requests for topping. No-one can pull your cert and no-one can fine you etc.

Seems to me it's an extremely good case to observe this one, obviously it now relies on more information and pictures. Then even if there's no recourse it can serve as a Billboard for Cannuck's to get something happening and WARN PEOPLE of the dangers of choosing unethical and unscrupulous operators.

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treeseer

"Can some-one become ISA Certified Arborist without being a member?

sure

"Can some-one get CEU's and continuity of Certification without being a member?

of course

"Seems to me it's an extremely good case to observe this one, obviously it now relies on more information and pictures.

yes it's a dead issue without more info.

"Then even if there's no recourse it can serve as a Billboard for Cannuck's to get something happening and WARN PEOPLE of the dangers of choosing unethical and unscrupulous operators.

Or unscrupulous consultants, who do far more damage.

chadd

i did not have my camera that day an so i have no pictures. walking away from the job was up to my boss not me. unfortunately the strata board that sent us to the building gives us a lot of work but each location that they manage has individual spokespeople. she happened to be that individual.

i wasn't so concerned about the job done, just curious how someone can become an arborist without working in the industry or being educated.
i'm not proud of the job but its done now.

Eric Frei

Chadd, many will claim their prowess in our profession. And show little evidence to prove it.

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treeseer

same here; govt planners and chainsaw technicians alike.

Eric Frei

Only last week I was reading a council spec on a tree job and it said paint wounds with acrylic paint. I corrected that!

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chadd

at least stupid people exist everywhere.

Knotahippie

Did she pay alot of money for the house/view/your company?


Is there a pruning standard in canada like ANSI has in States?

What species/age?

What to you is relevant experience?

How did you achieve a clue?

Q.Q.

Hmm good points Knotahippie.

What about us that are new at this and still learning.
At least some of us are tring to improve and are trying learn as much as we can from people like yourself.
Bit hard for people like myself when I am 9-10 hrs west of any major city.How do I go about doing a course in horticulture?.
Have emailed heaps of people but still no answers.
Books can only do so much.

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Q,Q's Tree & Garden Maintenance

FAMILARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT

Knotahippie

Books can free you from tree slavery

Q.Q.

For spraying some of the tree's I have done I have used "Steri Prune".
Is this stuff ok?,not sure on what to use.It is bitumen based,and I think it is a little exspensive.
Info on this type of thing would be helpfull please.Or do most people just leave it natually heal?.

Chadd.
I do know myself that some things that customers want you to do is not right,I can just feel it.But out here they will only get the town, goverment run and funded organization with millions on tap to do it anyway.

So why do you have to get out of bed in the morning?.

__________________

Q,Q's Tree & Garden Maintenance

FAMILARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT

ArborealTerror

I agree that there is a requirement to make money in this game.
Occassionally we have clients who request us to make topping cuts etc. In a very few cases such as a fiddlewood tree this will be performed. The rest of the time my boss will attempt to educate the customer on the problems caused by conforming to their request. I must say he is a fantastic salesman because I have only ever seen one customer push on resolutely demanding a topping on a Jarrah in their front yard. In this case my boss politely declined the job.



So the solution I believe is learning to sell yourself better. Since I have signed up to TreeWorld I have been completely flabbergasted by the depth and breadth of the knowledge you guys possess about all things arboreal. You guys are the experts, not the hacks, or the customers. You need to make them understand this.



I know I am in a different part of the country, not the boss etc and doubtless it is not anywhere as easy as I think. What I can tell you is my boss does have some background in sales and he is damn good at it. I know you guys are brilliant in trees but you need to balance it with strong sales skills IMHO. Then the customers will buy your opinions and the hacks might offer a cheaper price but the difference will be that the customers WILL know that you know what your talking about.

Knotahippie

Start reading and stop cutting! An "arborist" is supposed to be the "auditor" of the trees. A "hack" does what the "customer" says and steals their money.

I'm in the tree care bussiness, not the "get rich quick" business. Most of the benefits of trees are often understated to the customer.

I end up spending alot of my own time educating people about the tree system. They usually are very happy learning about trees for a little while (up to 2hr!)

Depending on species, the healthiest trees are usually the ones that have had very little pruning.

Alot of great research coming out of AU and EU these days.

Topping is FAR less common of a problem here than "cleaning out" a tree. To me its mostly about endweight/leverage reduction anyway...

Cruising around, I see about 5% of local tree jobs I would actually aprove of. And if I get to a job that's been previously hacked, I make sure the customer understands why.

Why would they call me instead of the last folks? Because an informed customer of mine told their neighbor to (happy customers).95% of the time everything the last folks cut is back in 1-2 seasons because of over thinning.

Certain practices, stripping interior laterals/suckers (reduces stem taper), cutting large stems/branches (starves roots!!) etc... cause huge problems for trees in the long run.

Big money for ?Main thing to me is to inform the customer about their tree/options and how to take care of trees.

Iv'e met very few customers/tree dudes who actually know anything about tree bio./anatomy. Many times they want to do somthing good, yet in the long run, it's not a good idea for the tree.

I use specific rules and only do specific jobs. I may get 10 jobs a week but may only do one.

I also make VERY little money, but only need a little and save it well. Instead of sitting around, I go to school part time and climb rocks for fun.

Those are real selling points.

chadd

she paid double what the job was worth.

there is very little in the way of standards, differs from city to city
if u prune a tree to kill it then there are severe fines.

there were 3 trees a scotch pine, a silver birch and a cypress.

the cypress after much arguement we removed because it was going to look so bad, for what it is i rescued (made it look good for what it was) the pine after cutting it in half. and the birch was heavily dropped in height for a future as a sucker shoot tree. all were about 25 years old and stated at 3 stories tall finishing at about 1.5 stories.

by relevent i mean working with a tree service or even in a nursery atleast.

and a clue i refer to an understanding of the cause and effects created by the work done based on how the tree will react and that the work will need to be redone every few years to reduce the hazard potential created by the upwards shoots.

chadd

as per a few other comments, there are far to many fly-by-night bs companies around that under bid jobs and do hack work. i educate a customer as much as possible and normally can convince them to do what is proper for the tree.

but when it comes down to it i need to make money and there is always so many companies trying to steal it and under bit everything. it forces us to do the odd job we don't want to but it pays the bill and provides a crew with employment.

Knotahippie

Hmmm, sounds harsh but...scots pine becomes a decurrent tree as it matures. and so does the birch, big cuts are bad, but...

Looks ain't everything at first, (ugly duckling). Sounds like it's a shame ya'll removed it unless she had a change of heart and wanted to give you more money?

Those are the jobs I live on, light restoration over a 5yr sched. Sounds like cake to me.

A light pruning on those trees, by a knowledgable arborist should be cheap. 100$-1hr.

What confuses me, why'd she hire you guys to cut when she could have gotten cheapest bid and been the arborist foreman for the day?


A.N.S.I is a good place to get tree care standards for pruning. And whoever uses the standards is doin' alot better than some folks (maybe her).

You should see the trees blocking the view in my yard! If it was up to me, I would have given the job away. Probably would have told her she should brush up on ANSI