Second thoughts

Therrin

Leaving tomorrow to go do the last tree on this contract. It had been raining heavily and snowing so I had to reschedule on it till now.

I actually feel like I've been putting it off on purpose almost. Nervous about it.

It's VERY tall, and VERY dead. No access for craning it down. Multiple major targets and I've known the clients for 15 years. I dont wanna pull out cuz I feel like I have reputation on the line, after talking about it so much. I dont want to just leave them hanging with it either.

Hopefully it'll all go without a hitch and I'm just feeling jittery about it. Anyone else ever feel like that about a project?

Victor Lindsay

I felt the same on many jobs, but I had to do it, or I'd never gone forward. I had the tools, (skills) to do the jobs, just never at that scale. If you've had the training, then rely on that training.

Drouin Tree Service

Plenty of times get in there and get it done.If its safe enough.

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southsoundtree

IF its safe enough.

If you have to re-plan the approach, tell them upon further inspection that you won't be able to do it without a little collateral damage due to defects that you've found, and there will be some larger divots in the lawn, may need to transplant some plants to open up the dropzone, or something might get some broken limbs that you'll then prune. Offer to continue with the project or allow them to consider someone else for the project.

Maybe you can hire a lift that you hadn't planned on, and will need to take down a fence, or ...

Better to risk your reputation by being honest with them, explaining the risk to life and limb, than risking your life unreasonably. Nobody wants an accident, injury or death at their house.

I recently had some LARGE, mature alders that I'd planned to climb (read little trunk taper with cavities), and rig down, we ended up limbing them up some, then ground felling them. Thankfully, very little collateral damage, and they knew that I was playing it safe, not being an invincible climber. They said that if it was too dangerous the other way, that its just that way, and were fine with it.

windthrown

Alders can easilly split open on you. I have cut and tipped them over with tractors, msyelf. Dead snags can be really trickey. Depends on where any rot is, and where the bugs have done damage.

As for being nervous about cutting some trees down, BTDT. In most cases that has been better, becasue I take my time and think things through carefully. Its has been when I am on a roll and the trees are all falling well that things tend to go wrong for me. Overconfidence, and not paying enough attention are reminders that no tree is 'small', and Murphy is always there.

Therrin

Back home.

Well. Apparently my feelings were somewhat well founded. Upon further inspection (as its difficult to see details on 4 different leaders at 80ft), I'm going to have to do something different here.

The leader that would hit the house I can take care of, its the one I took the top out of today and set as a rigging point for branches on another dead section.

Only problem is that there isnt a chance in hell I'd go far enough out on that section to just cut small pieces out of it. And if it comes down right where it is it'd wipe out the electrical lines. So I think on monday I'm gonna call Edison and have them come out and drop the lines so I can finish off those two leaders.

As for the other two.... the tree is about 3' Dia up to 40' height, then it splits into those 4 leaders. Of these two I mention, they both angle out over the garage, and from 40' to 80-90' they are only about a 18" to 14" in diameter.
Also, there are several sections where the bark has rotted off around 60ft and 80ft. I could see all this while taking the top out of the first leader I was working on. I wouldnt even trust tying into them for my TIP, let alone rigging them down on themselves. The last 35 ft is too small to climb even if it were live wood.

Additional problems. There is NO CHANCE of getting a crane in there, or even a bucket truck, the driveway has a hairpin turn in it that effectively keeps all of these vehicles out. If left, they'll both fall on the garage and the barn.

You know a tree is dead when you spend 5 hrs cutting branches and sections out of it, climbing all over it, and when you get done at the end of the day you have NO SAP on you.

I'm really not sure how to handle it from here. I'm thinking I'll be honest and up-front about it, offer to bring in Edison to drop the lines so I can finish taking the first 2 leaders out, but then I dont have a clue what to do about the other two and the rest of the main trunk.

I got alot of pictures and some videos today because my Dad came to help out. He's never seen me work before, so even though this project really SUCKED, it was really cool for him to get to see me climbing and using all the equipment. Good bonding time.

Eric Frei

Sounds like a right shit of a job, dead trees suck big time.

I wouldn't risk my life for some-one elses tree, screw that.

Sounds to me you need to get some gear at it, somehow access has to be made or leave it for the Mexicans

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stirmantrees

what about a rental lift like jlg etc. they turn well. just heavy

Levi Parkin

Is there any way you could remotely set a tag line and pull the other leads over using a block and tackle set up without doing too much damage? Even if you could just do have of them? Or, could you maybe use a speed line set up and just zip out large-ish sections? There has to be a way to do it without injuring yourself and with miminal property damage. Best of luck.

southsoundtree

Did you kill the tree?

Did you wait to remove it until it was in terrible shape?

Did you design the driveway to prohibit larger vehicles?

No?

Then its not yours problem, in the end.

Maybe you promised, via a contract, that it would be done. You can deal with a broken contract a lot easier than a broken body.

Therrin

True, technically its "not my problem". If I can get the power co. out to drop the lines I can get at least half of it down. Everything which would have hit the house and wiped out the power.

The rest is over the garage *shrugs*.

Was thinking that I might be able to run a line from one of the tall trees that I had shown in a different set of pictures, which runs close to the tops of these leaders, to ??? somewhere. Maybe another tree on the hillside about 150' away. then rig the tops of these out via a highline and a rolling block.

I'm tempted to call in one of the local tree service guys and see if they have any other suggestions. Other than that I'm kinda tapped out.

Hey look at the bright side, several years ago I wouldnt have been smart enough to know it's beyond my means. I think I'm learning when it's necessary to step down.

newguy18

use some ropes to help bolster the leaders,i've done this thousands of times,think like you cabling,one leader gets tied to the other,just don't tension up alot,no more than it takes to get all the sag out,it will strengthen the leaders by making the lead its tied to take some of your weight and also some of the load of the rigging,guys lines and straps help bolster the whole tree as well,its not as time consuming as it sounds,its not difficult and it takes less time than healing up at a hospital,i know you don't really care for my opinion but as many dead dangerous trees as i've done that alot of good climbers said were"impossible trees" i think my 2 cents is worth something.

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old schooler

Therrin

It's not that I don't think you have good advice Bill, but I don't think it really applies to this situation. I'll post some pictures and it'll be more clear about what I'm having to work with.

And btw, my not agreeing with your "only one tie in all the time, never use 2 tie ins" style, as well as my not overly caring with the other things you do outside the normal boundaries has nothing to do with whether I think you're capable of the job or that you have good advice for different situations, I just dont agree with your basic saftey for work practices.
You've admittedly fallen several times, and cut your flip and dropped yourself out of a tree. I've so far never done that. So....*shrugs* there's something to be said for taking extra precautions. I just dont like falling

Therrin

Ok here's some pictures. I'll edit some of the photos with arrows to show what you cant see in the photos. (such as, what's over the garage, the power lines, and what would hit the house)

If the stuff was still live or freshly dead, I wouldnt mind it. But as you should see with the lean on most of this stuff, and that it's missing bark and decaying, I'm a bit antsy about rigging it down on itself. I'm not sure that these leaders can take shock loading of the tops falling out if I've got the block tied into the same leader, or even any of the other leaders.

The one I left tall enough that I could rig at least the entire sideways dead leader down on it, and I did rappell off the top of it, but that's a static load, not shock loading it by dropping something on it while its swinging around from the side.

(oh that's my Dad in the first picture)

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Therrin

Leader #1 I'll have no trouble with, the top is already out of it but the rest is left to possible rig off of.

Leader #2 I decided to have the lines dropped before working on it. It's also completely dead and has patches of missing bark and decayed wood.

Leader #3 Hangs over the garage, has some missing bark, but the upper reaches of it are too thin/dead to climb for last 30ft. Taller than #1 by about 15 feet.

Leader #4 Has extensive patches of missing bark and decay, also hangs over the garage, also to thin/dead to climb for the last 30ft of it. Taller than #1 by about 20ft.

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arfabuck

Prime candidate for a "choppa-loppa". Get the aerial boys in for a fair suck on the sav mate.

Ekka, at the risk of possibly offending you but wanting to clear something up, your earlier response of- "leave it to the mexicans"?

Do I understand from that statement that you do see a place for cowboys?

Or do I have crossed wires again?

arfa

Therrin

NO ACCESS.

Let me see if I can find a google map photo. You literally cant get a truck or crane in position that it'd be able to reach this stuff. Unless there's a crane that's no longer than a full size pickup truck and has 100' of boom on it, it wont get up the driveway. To park the crane in the middle of the highway (down the hill from the property) you'd need about 150' of boom, and there's a good 60' of horizontal distance between the road and this tree.

Otherwise I'd have already brought in a crane by now.

Between points A and B, there's a good 50ft of elevation change. So you see the S curve driveway? Its so steep and curvy you cant get anything up it.

Even if you parked a large crane on the highway and shut the road down, there is a whole stretch of other trees blocking the way, as well as needing 150' of vertical reach from there and its 50-60' horizontal feet from the main road.

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arfabuck

Sorry Therrin, language barrier again.

I was referring to the helicopter tree removal boys.

arfa

Therrin

THAT doesnt sound cheap!

Prolly cheaper to demolish the garage and build a new one!

Bruce Hopf

Is there anyway a person could get something like a Bale/Grain Elevator in, that you could climb up the chute, and work from there.
Some of those elevators (like what I posted a picture of), can get pretty high up, to be able to reach up to the peak of the barn, between 30' to 40' up from the ground.
The are quite maneuverable, by hand (just two wheels on them), and can swing well, for really sharp turns.
I'm going to be useing mine here, to do some libbing here on the farm, myself. Just have a paddle, close to the end, the length of your leg (from your knee, and the tip of your toe, while your foot is extended, plus about 6", or more, that way you can rest your knee, or knees, in the bed of the bale/grain chute, and brace you foot against the paddle.
Take a rope up with you, to lower, and raise your chain saw, and gear, because climbing that chute (can be done, done it for years, here on the farm) you will be needing both hands, to pull yourself up to the next paddle (might have to take a step in between paddles).
If it has an electric motor on it, have someone plug it in, and ride the paddle close to the end of the bale grain chute.
Hope this helps you out a bit. It will give you a good solid work platform, to work off of as well as safe. Bruce.

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arfabuck

I don't know about Stateside companies but if the first pic, ( with your dad ) shows the base of the tree, then I would take in my trailer cherry picker, ( 20 metres height x 6.5 metres lateral ) and operate from the bucket quite safely.

If access by towing is out of the question then I would dismount the trailer and push it in. Does a 360 degree in its own length - 7 metres. If there is not enough room for that, then occasionally I lift the bucket to do it in less.

Do you have similar equipment hire companies there? Not cheap - mine would cost $300 per day to hire - which is why we have our own. That and the age factor.

Reg ( 93 ) doesn't climb anymore, Alan ( 80 ) won't go above ladder height = 10 metres which leaves us youngsters 60/70 to go up in the bucket. Har har.

All said and done Therrin, we are not there and cognisant of all the factors despite your excellent pics. BE SAFE! If you are not happy with the situation and can't get assistance either mechanical or human - walk away.

No job is worth life or limb.

arfa

arfabuck

The owner wants to make their garage/house safe? What's that worth?

Again I do not know what the choppa boys charge over there, probably more than a wounded bull, but $340 an hour and two fella's on the ground/tree says a grand in hireage for a SAFE removal.

I am probably talking out of my tree here so will belt up now. Interesting dilemma that makes the job unique. All the best with whatever you decide and please let us know the outcome. Inspirational to us all. Learn something new every day.

arfa

Levi Parkin

Is there any way to get lift or crane access via the neighbor's drive, just to the left in your aerial view. Looks like a pretty straight shot. I'm sure you've thought of that, just throwing it out there...

Eric Frei

They have a reputation around the USA as either doing anything for a buck or being desperate enough to do it for a buck.

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newguy18

okay as i seebit lead#4,double bull line set up over the garage to the other tree,you have to get at least 3/4 the way out,take it slow,hook the line from the tree in the back round to the lead to make it butt heavy,thenback track 10' and hook the rope coming from lead one and attach a tag line,cut approx.4' back from where you hooked the lead with a jump cut,no hinging,3 ground guys,one on each bull line,one on the tag line,have the two on the bull ropes ease it down to where it goes against the trunk of the tree you cut the lead from,use the tag line to keep it away from all obstacles and lower it,yes its a big piece but if done correctly i'd bet my own life it would work,if i were local,i'd do it for you,lead#3,same thing,only smaller,use your judgement,lead #2,tip tye it to make it but heavy,off lead #1,use 2 tag lines as it will have alot of momentum,cut it where the leader broke off it with a wide face cut,make the back cut even with the undercut and make it quick,leave as little hinge as possible,if need be,use just your climb line and swing away from the lead,have 2 ground guys use the tag line to slow it down so it can be lowered.then its just a simple matter of swinging pieces of stubs of and lowering lead #1.See,I make it sound easy,yet horribly insane at the same time but that is exactly what i would do.

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old schooler

Drouin Tree Service

Unless theres a good $$$ pass it up is my advice.

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Therrin

Yeah actually its paying very well, otherwise I wouldnt have bothered with it.

Bill, I'm still trying just to understand half of what you just said. But the picture you're working off of is decieving as far as how far the other tree is, the lean of those leaders and the placement of the garage underneath. I'm still leaning towards setting a THICK highline in that other tree and rigging from a block moving like a trolley across the highline. Of course, that'd be more equipment I'd have to buy.

And wow! Thanks for all the answers on this thread guys!

If I could find a chopper crew in this area that's $340/hr, that's actually pretty cheap. I'm pretty sure the client wouldnt have an issue with putting $1k at it. I've never even heard of anyone around here doing that though. I'd have to see about that.

Flash, the angles/elevations are difficult to see in that google earth picture. From the neib's driveway there's still a good 40' of elevation change, and a good 80 feet of horizontal distance to the tree. And there's lots of other trees in the way. =( It *is* a hairy situation, which makes it kinda unique that way.

I'll have to think about what you guys have all said and consider my options for this, talk to the client, and see how I'm gonna move forward on it.

Drouin Tree Service

Hope it pans out ok

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Therrin

Thinking about rigging via a high-line pretty seriously now.

Looking at either 250' or 300' of
3/4" double braid @ 19,600 Tensile, 1960 WLL or

1/2" amsteel @ 34,000 tensile, 3400 WLL.


Anchor it to the Other tree, run it across the top of the garage, through a block on a tree at the end of the driveway, and pull taut with a tractor.

Tie it as high up as I care to climb, then just above where I cut tie on my 5/8" line, and run it down to the portAwrap at the base of the tree.

That way I figure it should reduce shock loading on the high-line. Back the tractor up slowly to allow it to slide-drop till it clears the garage, then lower from the portAwrap to get it on the ground.

Does that sound workable?

Only thing is that between pulling taut on the high-line, then dropping the weight on it I need to find the forumula to figure out how that weight is going to affect both the line and the anchor points.

Therrin

Is it unheard of when doing a hazardous dismantle job to reassess the quote after you've gotten up in it and realized the situation is changed?

I've made a rule of sucking up what I misquote on other stuff, but this seems to be out of those normal circumstances. What do you guys think? / What would you do?