Redwoods: A "Must Read"

mdvaden · 10th January 2008, 08:44 PM

Yesterday, I started a thread on PortlandHikers.com about the redwoods.

When context moved to where to go, and where the big stuff is, and what's secluded, I did some searching, and learned of a tree and grove that was not familiar to me - Grove of Titans.

It's got to be within 2 miles of where I hike. One of those guarded secret places. Anyhow, the article has too many clues, and I know I could find these in a week to a month if need be. The biggest clue is not where they went in, but where they came out. And most people would focus on where they went in. Either way, not a lot of people would go looking, even if they knew. And me - I wouldn't tell either.

But I'd love to hear what this article says and means to you. In two ways. One - the trees. Two - about what they did not take into the forest with them. And whatever else. The link:

Orion Magazine - March-April 2007

Not sure of your browser, but when I click the page, the text enlarges a lot.

Ekka · 11th January 2008, 01:42 AM

Also this has clues.

A Day of Discovery | Orion magazine

Explanation of where Stout Grove is and where they came out.

Stout Grove

Richard Preston knows where it is, here's a pic of it.

Richard Preston

Ekka · 11th January 2008, 03:18 AM

Mario, here's a google earth of the region.

Marked in yellow is where they came out, Stout grove, they got a lift to their car and went to a burger joint to pig out back in Crescent.

I divided the area into 3 regions, I did this based on rivers they didn't mention crossing (although they mentioned creeks). Personally I think they were in Area 2 as it's more mountainous.

The southern end of region 2 seems to have lots of tracks and trails which they never had. Also they mentioned entry from the road where they parked the car was no trails so I think they were in the RH part of Area 2.

I cant get any good topo maps online. Also that area has the odd clearing which fits in with the story.

There is a road running along that river on the RH side of area 2, my hunch is they parked there.

I don't know if they had a compass or not and why if that's the case they didn't go back the way they came or were a little lost following out creeks etc in another direction.

The whole park is not that big at 10,000 acres however it mentions everywhere about being thick with vegetation and inaccessible. So travelling a mile in a couple of hours is a big deal.

Really need a topo map to see trails and creeks and nail the spot, maybe there's some aerials of the area too, I'm sure though with 300' trees what all these maps show ain't what it's like on the forest floor.

mdvaden · 11th January 2008, 07:40 AM

After a second read, here is what I came up with.

By the way, since your ocean is on the left, looking SOUTH to NORTH, their entire ordeal from parking to getting out, occured in the small upper portion of your area #1, exiting in the Stout Grove - your yellow spot. My diagram reverses compass direction view.

So you have a better idea of what you are looking at, the diagram below is looking from NORTH to SOUTH. Crescent City would be to the right, and the Campground is on the left. The lower fine yellow line is the main highway coming through the forest crudely east to west. The top fine yellow line is Howland Hill Rd. The parked along the lower yellow line, and hiked up the hill, likely going up that "Y" gulley you can see, taking the right or WEST fork. If that's the right Y, that means they probably angled a bit left or SOUTHEAST after, or they would be too far from Stout Grove. The area of forest framed-in here between the roads is about 3.0 miles north to south. And between Stout Grove and Crescent City about 7 miles east to west.

Glad you posted that photo - it does have a clue I overlooked in it. Walking in the redwoods, it's very dense and uncommon to see daylight in any one direction. Behind the tree and man, is an awful lot of daylight. That shows that the grassy clearing is truly a substantial one. Very uncommon in there. Might be a reason they are so big too.

The right dotted Green line is where I think Boy Scout Tree trail is, but maybe a bit more to the left. The left dotted Green line is Hiouchi Trail. I've been on both trails. Knowing that the grove is probably not within eye-shot of these trails, or the road, and knowing how long these men went up, eliminates a huge amount of area to look in. Virtually elimates the entire lower 2/3, because we know they traveled like 2.5 miles before finding it. And everything to the right is eliminated or they never would have got to Stout Grove in daylight. So whereas they explored the hardest to get through area and 100% of the area and found the grove, I would only need to look in about 10% of the area. And area about 1 mile x 1.5 miles. Very small region. And I can elimate the 7 hour brutal access and just come in from Howland Hill Rd., where I'm sure they enter now.

Ekka · 11th January 2008, 01:34 PM

That was my first choice to as it did say they enetered south of the highway.

What threw me was the river to cross to get to Stout Grove, but I dont know if it's a big enough river you have to swim or just a creek.

That's what threw me.

Mario, can you get any decent detailed topo maps?

I like these puzzles ... sort of like those mystery orienteering hikes with compasses and a map.

Also, they didn't seem to concerned about taking a heep of gear for staying the night etc, just wearing a T-Shirt means (for "exploreres") they were expecting a day stroll and little chance of getting lost ... probably due to roads on boundaries.

Pity those other trees aren't marked, then it would be a lot easier to nail it.

Nice, just had a Google Earth update, some 13mb file, way clearer now!

Mario, I have orientated my map same as yours, noticed that from Stout Grove a track follows the river south to a bridge.

Also I carefully scanned that area looking for some daylight patches and circled likely ones in red but more likely ones in yellow.

That's the way I'd go in to have a look to save fighting the terrain.

azrael · 11th January 2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Richard Preston knows where it is, here's a pic of it.

Richard Preston

That's pretty good detective work guys.
The image gallery in this link (The Wild Trees) is definately worth perusing thru.

mdvaden · 11th January 2008, 03:57 PM

Here is a second go at the image, I thought this version might seem a bit simpler. Basically, Google Earth ruler says from where I suggested they might park, all the way south to Howland Hill Rd. straight up, is 2.8 miles. And from the campground at west, to the edge of Crescent City, California is about 3.5 to 4 miles.

Go to this MAP here, and enlarge to about 200%.

http://www.nps.gov/carto/PDF/REDWmap1.pdf

It will show details of Hy. 199. Now, the map has north upward, and my image below has north toward the bottom. Both the map, and my diagram, show the pre-existing hiking trails. The Grove of Titans has to be between those, almost certainly. The pink area is where I would begin to look.

You could find a TOPOGRAPHY MAP at topozone.com, but REMEMBER, the article said that the topography maps WERE WRONG. The only reason I'd even use the topography map, is to try and find the "WARREN" of small valleys around a peak on the map, even though the map is wrong, because they still headed for what they thought that feature was.

Google Earth's satellite imagery is probably going to be better than a topo map for accuracy. Be sure to tilt the horizon to see the hills and valleys better. I also grab the rotator and spin it around to look at it from every angle. That's how I figured out the hill of Blue Ledge Mine in our area.

If I find the trees, I won't disclose the exact nature of where they are. The illustrations here show no more than what an existing article already somewhat implies. If I do find them, I will share photos and video though. My plan, hopefully, is to go next week.

bigshea13 · 11th January 2008, 06:58 PM

very good read. you guys got me surfin and looking now. in todays day and age , with planes and choppers, how do you think they were over looked for so long. if those two were able to stumble across the grove in a day? ive never seen a redwood in person but it an achivement i hope to someday reach. thanks for the read guys, interesting.

mdvaden · 11th January 2008, 07:35 PM

This morning, I sent a brief email to Steve Sillette, the co-discoverer of the Grove of Titans, regarding the article, mentioning that I may give a shot at putting the clues together. Also mentioned I won't disclose anything more descriptive about location if I find the grove. He replied briefly...

Quote:

Mario,

Thanks for your kind words.

As for finding the Grove of Titans, it should not be too hard for someone of your caliber. Good luck, and please do not reveal its location to others.

Sounds a bit encouraging, anyhow. Later this afternoon, I gave another read to this article, where he is included as one of the climbers...

Cimbing the Redwoods - Richard Preston

One part I enjoyed about that one, was mention of all the plant and lichen life in the tree. Can you imagine, it took 15 minutes or so, for Steve to find his wife in the tree. I've never spoken with them before, or even emailed. I think it's a slick deal that they both climb and study similar things, so that the forest and travel keeps them together.

Yesterday, I noticed that the Lost Monarch redwood, has a wider base than General Sherman the sequoia. Today, I found out that Lost Monarch, though it tapers, is still within about 31 points of General Sherman in the over 1000 point range.

Hey, now I can't add any specific spots on an image as to where I plan to hunt, in case I find them. I already picked where I want to go in, and where I plan to come out. If I cross a ridge and don't use the same return path, that doubles the territory covered on a single hike. I'll be taking both my digital camera and my video camera on this one. Even if I don't find it, it's going to be a grand time in the redwoods.

So for size comparison, here are 3 trees in that area, and the titans will be bigger than all of these. The one where I'm kneeling in a blue shirt, is Simpson Reed grove, not far from where they probably parked: along Hy. 199. The yellow shirt image is on Boy Scout Tree trail. The other where I have a jacket on, is the biggest seen by the public in that park - that's the Stout Tree in Stout Grove, where they found the man photographing. And I am estimating the Grove of Titans to be within 2 miles of this tree via a straight line.

Ekka · 11th January 2008, 08:34 PM

Lucky bastid, I wouldn't mind going in there either, least it wont be boiling hot.

Make a few days out of it in case you dont nail it first day.

I dare say from the air it would all look much the same and seeing a fat trunk at ground level through 300' high canopies is pretty unlikely.

So that was a road not a track with the bridge I marked, that's the road you need to come north from, I'd be picking the closest point and near the river, figure it's easier to travel river banks and those guys said they had trouble getting high ground anyway.

This'll be good Mario, also lift that pic of Prestons coz we're just leeching it at the moment.

Then when you find it take one at exactly the same angle.

mdvaden · 11th January 2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Lucky bastid, I wouldn't mind going in there either, least it wont be boiling hot.

Make a few days out of it in case you dont nail it first day.

I dare say from the air it would all look much the same and seeing a fat trunk at ground level through 300' high canopies is pretty unlikely.

So that was a road not a track with the bridge I marked, that's the road you need to come north from, I'd be picking the closest point and near the river, figure it's easier to travel river banks and those guys said they had trouble getting high ground anyway.

In summer a footbridge is set over the river by the campground it seems.

Agree about view from above.

If I find it I'll try to remember to get you a souvenir !! Cone? Needles?

Must be already off, tiny & inconsequential.

RandyMac · 12th January 2008, 09:30 AM

You-all are talkin' about my backyard, I've spent most of my life in Humboldt and Del Norte counties. I live in Crescent City. There are a few untouched places were pockets of superb groves exist. Most remain "hidden" to keep the public from screwing them up. Folks wandering around the bases have caused soil compaction, several popular trees have suffered greatly, some are dying. Fortunately, the average tourist won't go 50 yards from the car. I know of trees that surpass the "public" giants, there is a Redwood (coastal) that taped out at 26' dbh, it lives in Del Norte. I participated in the falling of a stovepipe that was close to 25' dia. @ the stump. In the '50s, Redwood Valley, near Orick, record sized trees were logged often enough, to have the companies cover up what went on there.
As far as Humboldt goes, you had better hurry, the condition of the Bull Creek Redwoods is deteriorating fast, climate changes due to logging around the park has caused irreversable damage. Humboldt Redwoods State Park is an island in a sea of clearcuts, most of which date back to the '40s and '50s. The heavily mechanized logging of that era, through the '60s, took the bulk of the timber, there was little concern for anything but getting the timber out.
The best of what is left, is in northern Humboldt and Del Norte.

RandyMac

Ekka · 12th January 2008, 01:43 PM

Well there you go, that's just a hop step and a jump away from you, maybe you can team up and call yourselves the Mario Brothers.

Zig Zag through the forest and dodge the obstacles.

Surely you couldn't miss that opportunity.

mdvaden · 14th January 2008, 04:51 PM

Tick...Tock...Tick...Tock...

Tomorrow morning is our exploring. Time is ticking down. Got my work and bookkeeping caught up, and we've moved my wife's mom's stuff to her new house.

Bought a new down vest today for me, and 2 pairs of gloves for my son.

Extra fuel bottle for the mini-stove, freeze dried beef stroganoff meals, 4 giant snickers bars, almonds and tea bags.

Should be a fine weather day. Some clouds, with some clearing. Highs about 48 degrees Farenheit.

Actually, I've enjoyed every single on of my hikes and adventures in the redwood forest. I hiked there about 15 times last year - mostly using the trails.

There is a lot of nice stuff in there besides the redwoods too. If anyone is into fishing, there's that too, in the Smith River.

10th January 2008, 08:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 564	Redwoods: A "Must Read" Yesterday, I started a thread on PortlandHikers.com about the redwoods. When context moved to where to go, and where the big stuff is, and what's secluded, I did some searching, and learned of a tree and grove that was not familiar to me - Grove of Titans. It's got to be within 2 miles of where I hike. One of those guarded secret places. Anyhow, the article has too many clues, and I know I could find these in a week to a month if need be. The biggest clue is not where they went in, but where they came out. And most people would focus on where they went in. Either way, not a lot of people would go looking, even if they knew. And me - I wouldn't tell either. But I'd love to hear what this article says and means to you. In two ways. One - the trees. Two - about what they did not take into the forest with them. And whatever else. The link: Orion Magazine - March-April 2007 Not sure of your browser, but when I click the page, the text enlarges a lot. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

11th January 2008, 01:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,869	Also this has clues. A Day of Discovery \| Orion magazine Explanation of where Stout Grove is and where they came out. Stout Grove Richard Preston knows where it is, here's a pic of it. Richard Preston __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

11th January 2008, 06:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: Redwoods: A "Must Read" very good read. you guys got me surfin and looking now. in todays day and age , with planes and choppers, how do you think they were over looked for so long. if those two were able to stumble across the grove in a day? ive never seen a redwood in person but it an achivement i hope to someday reach. thanks for the read guys, interesting.

11th January 2008, 08:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,869	Re: Redwoods: A "Must Read" Lucky bastid, I wouldn't mind going in there either, least it wont be boiling hot. Make a few days out of it in case you dont nail it first day. I dare say from the air it would all look much the same and seeing a fat trunk at ground level through 300' high canopies is pretty unlikely. So that was a road not a track with the bridge I marked, that's the road you need to come north from, I'd be picking the closest point and near the river, figure it's easier to travel river banks and those guys said they had trouble getting high ground anyway. This'll be good Mario, also lift that pic of Prestons coz we're just leeching it at the moment. Then when you find it take one at exactly the same angle. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

12th January 2008, 09:30 AM	#12 (permalink)
RandyMac Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW California Posts: 77	Re: Redwoods: A "Must Read" You-all are talkin' about my backyard, I've spent most of my life in Humboldt and Del Norte counties. I live in Crescent City. There are a few untouched places were pockets of superb groves exist. Most remain "hidden" to keep the public from screwing them up. Folks wandering around the bases have caused soil compaction, several popular trees have suffered greatly, some are dying. Fortunately, the average tourist won't go 50 yards from the car. I know of trees that surpass the "public" giants, there is a Redwood (coastal) that taped out at 26' dbh, it lives in Del Norte. I participated in the falling of a stovepipe that was close to 25' dia. @ the stump. In the '50s, Redwood Valley, near Orick, record sized trees were logged often enough, to have the companies cover up what went on there. As far as Humboldt goes, you had better hurry, the condition of the Bull Creek Redwoods is deteriorating fast, climate changes due to logging around the park has caused irreversable damage. Humboldt Redwoods State Park is an island in a sea of clearcuts, most of which date back to the '40s and '50s. The heavily mechanized logging of that era, through the '60s, took the bulk of the timber, there was little concern for anything but getting the timber out. The best of what is left, is in northern Humboldt and Del Norte. RandyMac

12th January 2008, 01:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,869	Re: Redwoods: A "Must Read" Well there you go, that's just a hop step and a jump away from you, maybe you can team up and call yourselves the Mario Brothers. Zig Zag through the forest and dodge the obstacles. Surely you couldn't miss that opportunity. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th January 2008, 04:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 564	Re: Redwoods: A "Must Read" Tick...Tock...Tick...Tock... Tomorrow morning is our exploring. Time is ticking down. Got my work and bookkeeping caught up, and we've moved my wife's mom's stuff to her new house. Bought a new down vest today for me, and 2 pairs of gloves for my son. Extra fuel bottle for the mini-stove, freeze dried beef stroganoff meals, 4 giant snickers bars, almonds and tea bags. Should be a fine weather day. Some clouds, with some clearing. Highs about 48 degrees Farenheit. Actually, I've enjoyed every single on of my hikes and adventures in the redwood forest. I hiked there about 15 times last year - mostly using the trails. There is a lot of nice stuff in there besides the redwoods too. If anyone is into fishing, there's that too, in the Smith River. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap