Phc

Roller · 13th February 2007, 12:19 PM

So have we got any compost tea ,organic fert,tree spaying,and deep root fert guys here?

I'm very interested in this field of work,we have a small deep root fert rig coming this week,I'm debating on getting a ''compost tea brewer'' compost tea fascinates me

Ekka · 13th February 2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roller

we have a small deep root fert rig coming this week,

Roller

Do you info on the rig etc, perhaps a link? This is also something I'm looking into.

Here's a link to the only products I found near me well worth using. Not many have mycorrhizal in them.

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/product...-life-4-20.htm
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/products.htm

Roller · 13th February 2007, 02:24 PM

My rig is basicly a copy of this http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=583

Of course my rig was custom made,customs made it so hard to ship one from the states/Canada,I had to pay 3 times the the price you see here

TreeCo · 13th February 2007, 04:31 PM

That looks like a nice rig Roller.

I had one that was very similar but 200 gallon and a 5hp Briggs with 300ft. of 1/2 inch hose. Great for soil injection with the soil probe. Just watch out.......solid soil and it will squirt back up out of the hole! I think this is a great way to wash holes in to the soil to fight compaction and increase air exchange. The washed holes are large enough to add solid soil amendments like compost to keep channel open and perserve the air exchange. Of course some amendments can be injected right along with the water.

Ekka · 13th February 2007, 10:22 PM

You'd never push that into the ground here, need a percussion style system but they're not pumping air down them holes just 100% fluid right?

I want to pump air/fluid mix.

Even this one looks like you plug a hose not compressed air.

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=917

Roller · 13th February 2007, 11:40 PM

Very hard to find, the kind of air/water injection system.Their used to be the Terravent system,they flopped..

A big decompaction contractor in my area had to build his own machines,he pumps calcified seaweed into compacted areas ,mainly golf greens,race courses.

I'm skeptical if this guys rigs are reliable,he always seems to be into some stage of development lol,though at least he's trying!!

http://www.terrainaeration.co.uk/

Roller · 13th February 2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Even this one looks like you plug a hose not compressed air.

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=917

Yep that feeder plugs into a high pressure water sprayer

Roller · 13th February 2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeCo

That looks like a nice rig Roller.

Just watch out.......solid soil and it will squirt back up out of the hole!.

From the tests we've carried out [clay soil around here,holes glaze very easy] it looks like I'm going to get wet..

a_lopa · 14th February 2007, 12:22 AM

Ekka has made a pretty good rig IMO

Ekka · 14th February 2007, 01:44 AM

That terrainaeration guy is on the right track.

Biggest problem with trees is compaction, need to get some air down there.

Some guys use the Airspade/Airknife for decompaction, hows that work?

IMHO I think deep watering, deep fertilizing etc is mainly BS.

Pretty outrageous and bold statement but if there was little compaction and good aeration then any drench will suffice as deep enough root fertilization.

I've look at hundreds of excavated sites and no doubt the feeder roots are in that top thin layer of soil. My belief, yet to be quantified is that deep roots such as tap roots are supplied not sourced roots.

What does that mean? I believe the rest of the rhizosphere actually feeds that root to be the depth miner for reasons other than water/nutrient and oxygen.

But hey, it's a theory. The reasoning is that all the things roots need aint down there ... so why go there? Support, storage and anchorage. And if there's any bonuses along the way of course they'll capitalize.

Sean Freeman · 14th February 2007, 02:33 AM

The evidence from short term studies suggests that decompaction using an Airknife or Airspade has hardly any effect on soil bulk density or root growth parameters. The two docs below are ones I have easily to hand but there are more especially in JOA.

Soil_Fracture_Patterns_Impact_on_Bulk_Density_smiley.pdf

Terravent_20ms_202.0.pdf

But we use an Airknife to decompact as often as we can, and at 230cfm we get quite impressive fracturing. It certainly seems to me to have a positive effect on the health of the trees I've treated, but maybe its just that I want to see it that way. We always impress on the clients that this is a treatment that needds to be repeated annually as the pores created will close again even with foot traffic.

I have not seen anything even approaching a tap root on any of the trees up here not even those growing on old beach dunes but I would accept that in very sandy soils with a lower water table you would expect to see significant sinker roots throughout the root system. What I have seen is adventitous roots on natives and exotics that have developed as the buried root system fails giving the distinct impression of a large tap root.

I agree with you Ekka roots will only grow into areas that are benficial to tree health no air, no nutrients, no water, no roots down there.

SF

Ekka · 14th February 2007, 02:51 AM

Can you show me a pic of how the air knife is used to decompact?

The pdf's suggest there's no improvement, another guy I know said from his experience it definately worked and showed a lot of improvement. However in Sydney they shy'd away from using it coz they reckon it tore apart the fine hairy root system when the clumps of soil fracture.

So, if all is accurate, forget injecting, start soil drench and mulch and all is OK. Hmmm, dunno, to break the soil up and get some air down there sounds like a benefit.

Sean Freeman · 14th February 2007, 04:10 AM

These shots are from a while back at one of the botanic gardens in town, under the canopy of a raintree Albizia saman Curator was concerned about the overall health of the tree, excessive deadwood, live timber badly affected by longicorn beetle damage. In addition to the decompaction throughout the root plate we vertically mulched after a coprehensive set of soil tests.

DSCF4479.JPG

DSCF4481.JPG

I quess they don't really show you much we put the Airknife in along a grid pattern about every 1.5/2m.

Decompaction.JPG

Once the entire area was done then went around and vertically mulched into the holes created, with a mix determined by the soil testing I'd done there. You can see the overspill from the holes marking out the grid patern if you look closely.

DSCF4483si.JPG

The idea for us is to penetrate down 300-400mm no deeper, especially if you're vertcally mulching since you don't really want to insert organic matter below 400mm in compacted soils.

More often we sheet mulch over the decompaction, this reduces the likelihood of recompaction occuring too soon, as well as providing the best microenvironment for the soil food web (so long as your mulch is the right stuff!!)

I know the science so far has not proved results as positive but I have to say that the plots used in the studies I'v seen don't reflect the reality in the urban forest I work in. Soils are grossly impoverished, heavily compacted very very dry and by a large comprised of fill or inverted horizons, in these conditions decompaction even if it does(and I accept it does) destroy a fraction of the fine root hairs, will have a positive impact on the health of the soil, when combined with the addition of appropriate organic material, and consequently the health of the trees growing in that soil.

We have to get the soil environment right, its the key to everything the soil food web has to be favourable for trees and from that long term tree health will follow..if we can stop people treating them as if they were big hedges!

SF

Roller · 14th February 2007, 09:20 AM

With a root feeding needle such as the one I bought recently ,it will most certainly create good 2''-12'' deep holes 1'' in diameter,several hundred holes like that have got to be good for a compacted tree.

But the best treatment ,for a compacted tree is a vertical mulch,nice deep holes filled with a mix of wood chip and compost,then a drench of compost tea or fert of the right kind..

Don't forget Ekka its not uncommon for trees up here to have lush extremely thick grass growing underneath the compacted tree,if you simply drenched these trees as you know you'd simply be feeding the grass,so imo shallow root feeding is best..

13th February 2007, 12:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 214	Phc So have we got any compost tea ,organic fert,tree spaying,and deep root fert guys here? I'm very interested in this field of work,we have a small deep root fert rig coming this week,I'm debating on getting a ''compost tea brewer'' compost tea fascinates me

13th February 2007, 10:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	You'd never push that into the ground here, need a percussion style system but they're not pumping air down them holes just 100% fluid right? I want to pump air/fluid mix. Even this one looks like you plug a hose not compressed air. http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=917 __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th February 2007, 12:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 877	Ekka has made a pretty good rig IMO __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

14th February 2007, 01:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	That terrainaeration guy is on the right track. Biggest problem with trees is compaction, need to get some air down there. Some guys use the Airspade/Airknife for decompaction, hows that work? IMHO I think deep watering, deep fertilizing etc is mainly BS. Pretty outrageous and bold statement but if there was little compaction and good aeration then any drench will suffice as deep enough root fertilization. I've look at hundreds of excavated sites and no doubt the feeder roots are in that top thin layer of soil. My belief, yet to be quantified is that deep roots such as tap roots are supplied not sourced roots. What does that mean? I believe the rest of the rhizosphere actually feeds that root to be the depth miner for reasons other than water/nutrient and oxygen. But hey, it's a theory. The reasoning is that all the things roots need aint down there ... so why go there? Support, storage and anchorage. And if there's any bonuses along the way of course they'll capitalize. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th February 2007, 02:51 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,933	Can you show me a pic of how the air knife is used to decompact? The pdf's suggest there's no improvement, another guy I know said from his experience it definately worked and showed a lot of improvement. However in Sydney they shy'd away from using it coz they reckon it tore apart the fine hairy root system when the clumps of soil fracture. So, if all is accurate, forget injecting, start soil drench and mulch and all is OK. Hmmm, dunno, to break the soil up and get some air down there sounds like a benefit. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

13th February 2007, 02:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 214	My rig is basicly a copy of this http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=583 Of course my rig was custom made,customs made it so hard to ship one from the states/Canada,I had to pay 3 times the the price you see here

13th February 2007, 04:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
TreeCo Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 259	That looks like a nice rig Roller. I had one that was very similar but 200 gallon and a 5hp Briggs with 300ft. of 1/2 inch hose. Great for soil injection with the soil probe. Just watch out.......solid soil and it will squirt back up out of the hole! I think this is a great way to wash holes in to the soil to fight compaction and increase air exchange. The washed holes are large enough to add solid soil amendments like compost to keep channel open and perserve the air exchange. Of course some amendments can be injected right along with the water.

13th February 2007, 11:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 214	Very hard to find, the kind of air/water injection system.Their used to be the Terravent system,they flopped.. A big decompaction contractor in my area had to build his own machines,he pumps calcified seaweed into compacted areas ,mainly golf greens,race courses. I'm skeptical if this guys rigs are reliable,he always seems to be into some stage of development lol,though at least he's trying!! http://www.terrainaeration.co.uk/

14th February 2007, 02:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	The evidence from short term studies suggests that decompaction using an Airknife or Airspade has hardly any effect on soil bulk density or root growth parameters. The two docs below are ones I have easily to hand but there are more especially in JOA. Soil_Fracture_Patterns_Impact_on_Bulk_Density_smiley.pdf Terravent_20ms_202.0.pdf But we use an Airknife to decompact as often as we can, and at 230cfm we get quite impressive fracturing. It certainly seems to me to have a positive effect on the health of the trees I've treated, but maybe its just that I want to see it that way. We always impress on the clients that this is a treatment that needds to be repeated annually as the pores created will close again even with foot traffic. I have not seen anything even approaching a tap root on any of the trees up here not even those growing on old beach dunes but I would accept that in very sandy soils with a lower water table you would expect to see significant sinker roots throughout the root system. What I have seen is adventitous roots on natives and exotics that have developed as the buried root system fails giving the distinct impression of a large tap root. I agree with you Ekka roots will only grow into areas that are benficial to tree health no air, no nutrients, no water, no roots down there. SF

14th February 2007, 04:10 AM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	These shots are from a while back at one of the botanic gardens in town, under the canopy of a raintree Albizia saman Curator was concerned about the overall health of the tree, excessive deadwood, live timber badly affected by longicorn beetle damage. In addition to the decompaction throughout the root plate we vertically mulched after a coprehensive set of soil tests. DSCF4479.JPG DSCF4481.JPG I quess they don't really show you much we put the Airknife in along a grid pattern about every 1.5/2m. Decompaction.JPG Once the entire area was done then went around and vertically mulched into the holes created, with a mix determined by the soil testing I'd done there. You can see the overspill from the holes marking out the grid patern if you look closely. DSCF4483si.JPG The idea for us is to penetrate down 300-400mm no deeper, especially if you're vertcally mulching since you don't really want to insert organic matter below 400mm in compacted soils. More often we sheet mulch over the decompaction, this reduces the likelihood of recompaction occuring too soon, as well as providing the best microenvironment for the soil food web (so long as your mulch is the right stuff!!) I know the science so far has not proved results as positive but I have to say that the plots used in the studies I'v seen don't reflect the reality in the urban forest I work in. Soils are grossly impoverished, heavily compacted very very dry and by a large comprised of fill or inverted horizons, in these conditions decompaction even if it does(and I accept it does) destroy a fraction of the fine root hairs, will have a positive impact on the health of the soil, when combined with the addition of appropriate organic material, and consequently the health of the trees growing in that soil. We have to get the soil environment right, its the key to everything the soil food web has to be favourable for trees and from that long term tree health will follow..if we can stop people treating them as if they were big hedges! SF

14th February 2007, 09:20 AM	#14 (permalink)
Roller Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 214	With a root feeding needle such as the one I bought recently ,it will most certainly create good 2''-12'' deep holes 1'' in diameter,several hundred holes like that have got to be good for a compacted tree. But the best treatment ,for a compacted tree is a vertical mulch,nice deep holes filled with a mix of wood chip and compost,then a drench of compost tea or fert of the right kind.. Don't forget Ekka its not uncommon for trees up here to have lush extremely thick grass growing underneath the compacted tree,if you simply drenched these trees as you know you'd simply be feeding the grass,so imo shallow root feeding is best.. Last edited by Roller : 14th February 2007 at 09:51 AM.

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