Opinions / Help!

Mark Noy

I think i attached the pic.. THINK.
This Sapium is located Opposite Miranda fair, near the medical center.
Mangled and hacked. Great site.

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Apocalypsse

This is one of my main jobs, powerline clearance, I'm a bit passionate about my job so don't take the post the wrong way.

That tree isn't mangled/hacked for something under powerlines, in fact more could have been taken off. The bad pruning under powerlines is when the trees are lopped leaving stubs etc, the trees throw out suckers quick and they are through the lines again within 6 months but more than with normal pruning. You are given specs to clear the minimum, then on top of that you have to factor in how long it will be until you return to clear it again, we have 1m clearance specs around LV on 2 year cycles.

You can hardly blame the crews that are sent in to clear the tree from the powerlines. You have to look at the councils and those who decide to put powerlines where trees already are. Councils insist on choosing trees that grow taller than the height of powerlines in the streets when they have a huge list of trees that don't grow that tall yet they continue to plant trees which go through powerlines and need to have 50% or more of the canopy removed to comply with clearance reqs. Lately I've seen Eucalyptus' planted under HV and next to a storm water ditch that holds water. In another area Pyrus' planted in large groups again, under HV & LV.

As long as correct pruning techniques are employed (mainly just proper target cuts as you can take off upwards of 90% of the canopy to comply), then the trees don't come back as hard or with poor branch unions. Your project should focus on those lopping trees under powerlines, not those using correct pruning techniques. You should also have a major emphasis on Councils who choose the trees that go under the powerlines, they don't accept outside opinion on what should and should not be planted there, the councils need to take a swift kick in the ass and wake up to these blunders.

...oH my I typed a lot, I get a bit trigger happy on the keyboard when I'm passionate about something.

Eric Frei

I reckon the utility pruners do a better job than most the tree loppers around here!

I agree the tree is not hacked and mangled. Too often I hear that type of terminolgy when it is not a fact or accurate.

The pruning done is to AS4373, the practice fo valleying trees out instead of topping them is what is happening, a type of formative pruning to get the tree to grow around the wires.

Here's a thread worth reading

Supreme court action to stop line clearance

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Apocalypsse

The quality of work has improved dramatically over the last few years, especially within Citywide I've noticed. LOTS of time and money invested to have people trained in pruning techniques. Pruning like the one in the picture leaves the tree in far better condition and means less work next time around. I'll take some pictures of that poor choices of trees we have to put up with and the final result.

stan

A good start for your assignment would be to seek surveys of public opinions towards the way trees are being trimmed close to power lines

Mark Noy

Cheer Stan, yer i figured to head that way, but as the assignment contains over 4k words, surveys arent going to cover it completely.
The photo i posted was one of the better ones i have, as for the ones on Menai road are horrible. I will get around to uploading them eventually, Im just after opinions on the mangling of them, and how they believe it affects us as Arborists, not so much the regulations.

Eric Frei

Driizzt,

In my locality I find the general public quite ignorant to correct pruning techniques so I do not count their opinion for much at all. Surveying ignorant people for an opinion is not wise.

Here's another example.

Who are you going to call? Tree Busters!

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Mark Noy

Few on the way home.

Im not saying there bad or whatever else, just some more EG

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Mark Noy

I wouldnt use the word ignorant as such, unaware is probably a better word to use, however i do classify everyones opinion as important as yours or my own. But its these "ignorant" people that are making us money, and the bad works that are done around wires, done by a qualified Arborist or not still reflects upon us. EG
I see a good panel beater driving a rusty bomb, then there is no way im taking my car to them.
In which is my question.

"How does the bad works, reflect upon us as Arborists"

So its there opinion as well that i want.
As interesting article as that is, its obvious that the lady who had the works done was a "few sangers short of a picnic"

Eric Frei

There was a great tree man, Shigo.

He often spoke about tree dignity, many bury their heads in that discussion, some even try to save dead tree stumps you know.

In my opinion the line has been crossed, those trees have lost their dignity. Tree dignity is not something you'll find in a pruning specification, it is something that is interpreted differently by many people just like those who save dead trees.

Where is the line, when is it crossed?

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stan

There is no question in my mind that what we do to trees under or near power lines is not beneficial both for the tree and for the observer of the trees in the landscape.

The main problem I see with this type of work is the lack of communication between utilities, councils, and the consumer or residents. In some cases we have utility workers pruning trees as unqualified tree workers and on the other hand there are tree workers trimming trees not only to clearance but also compensating for up to two yeas growth between pruning cycles.

All this equals a less desirable look for the tree giving the customer a poor representation of our industry because this type of work is the most prominent. There is no easy or cost effective way to fix trees and power lines communications need to be made to EVERYONE so that there is some understanding as to why the trees are managed in this way and explain that the practice is not an industry wide practice (Although some weekend worriers do practice lopping as proper tree pruning but thats a whole other matter).

Apocalypsse

Communication isn't really necessary. It comes down to brain power of the Council Arborist, plant a Euc or something that grows tall under powerlines, what do you think is gonna happen? Plant something that doesn't grow past 3-4 metres, then you don't get valleyed or lopped trees.

I work with people who are unqualified and know a lot of others that are unqualified, but they sure as hell can prune better than most people. If the company invests in training then you'll get nicely valleyed trees instead of these lopped trees that grow back twice as fast and twice as thick.

stan

Again you seem to be missing the point of this post. This guy is asking about the publics perception of what is being done and how we can better inform and educate the lay person that employs arborist for their own tree work.

You will still find that a lot of customers want the short back and sides for their tree because that is what they see as acceptable practice and good tree care.

Sure there are now better ways of managing trees under lines these days and sure it would be good to see councils select the right plants but the question that was asked was

Garry Brockley

The average layman won't connect power line clearing and arborists together.
what effects their perception is seeing lots of trees from a young age in private gardens lopped in half and they have become desensitized to seeing them, they then think it's the norm to do it that way.
Most people do what their parents did and follow that trend whether it's the right way or not! have you had the customers that say "oh well my dad did the trees that way and he had a beautiful garden".

so no i don't see it effecting the public perception of arborists personally

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Apocalypsse

This thread is more about trees and clearing of powerlines than anything else. It would take a huge media campaign to educate people before they go looking for someone to do tree work for them.

jmcg.insight.gardens

Over the years I've heard a lot of public opinions towards tree pruning under power lines when doing peoples gardens. It is always to the negative, both towards the tree choice, and towards the tree pruning, as "ugly", "why do they always choose natives that look ugly like that", " I'm sick of the way they butcher trees like that". etc

In general the public do not understand the concept of valley pruning, but they do seem to understand that better choice of trees in the first place would create a more pleasing landscape. You do not have to be knowledgeable to perceive ugliness.

I like your comment Eric about a trees dignity, that is what grates on me when I see a tree that has lost it's dignity when it has been severely valley pruned, especially if it appears heavily lop-sided. I understand why they are pruned in that way, it still grates on me, because I also know what potential those tree species have. Can't help it.

I think that better tree choice would significantly improve our urban environment. It would improve the public perception of trees. To people that have to look at a heavily pruned tree daily,(if it was in their view on a daily basis), it would have a more positive effect on their lives. I have met people that feel those trees on their verge are their pet trees, and are genuinely upset when they are valley pruned, some little old ladies I've worked for are really upset for weeks, one old lady in particular, it really affected her in a big way..

As to how it would affect you as an Arborist, that's another thing again. Public perception is a fickle thing, if say your resume said that you had done power line pruning in the past, or it was mentioned somehow in the course of gaining work by quote, the public might immediately equate you with the negative feelings they have towards the way trees are pruned under power lines, that is if they care about trees at all, perhaps they would be less inclined to hire you. That's human nature.So in some way it might have a negative effect I suppose. But I don't think it creates a negative view of Arborist's overall, that not my observation anyway.

As I've said, I,ve yet to hear a positive comment from the uninformed general public about under wire pruning.

That's all I can think of, hope it helps in some way. Perhaps starting with the topic of correct tree choice might fill up your report a bit. That,s a decent sized report, good luck with it.

Julie

Mark Noy

Thankyou Julie, you've hit the topic on the head. I'd give you a gold star!
I think I tend to agree with you. I no even as a cert 4 Arborist and dipl in Hort
That my opinions are high with most of the arb guys out there with there work
But seeing the extremes that are being produced of late most definitely takes the opinion down a notch or 2. Cheers Julie, I will indeed start with the correct use of spp. Ty for the tip! Any more ideas feel free to jott em down!
Would you mind if I quoted you in the report ? That would be awsome

jmcg.insight.gardens

Hi Driizzt,

I don't mind if you quote me.

Julie

Mark Noy

What i believe to be decent work.
Opinions ?

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Apocalypsse

Yes that is good work and its quite common with Cyprus. Now you got to look at where the trees are positioned in relation to the powerlines, they are offset, not directly under. If they were under they would just have the head chopped off and still look good after greening up. There are far too many variables to consider when looking for the 'perfect' finish, at the end of the day its best to have the proper pruning techniques used instead of lopping trees.
Like today, an Acer negundo was up for some valleying. 7-8m tall tree, spread out across about 13m with an intersection of LV, several service wires, telecom & cable going into houses, telecom/cable running on the pole, street light and street name sign on the pole. Valleying was the only real option, that or remove the tree which wasn't going to happen. As for this tree's dignity, it had none left after I was done and it still wasn't compliant with our specs.

Mark Noy

Did you manage to get a hold of those pictures with the bad works Apoc?

Apocalypsse

Theres no bad works in my area, just properly pruned valleyed trees. Also we have been up pruning in an estate so haven't been around to get pictures. Will see what happens tomorrow.

Mark Noy

no probs.
Ok another question for the more experienced tree guys,

"what are some techniques that can be implemented to possibly avoid the valley pruning look."

other then the obvious of stopping stupid council people from planting giants under the lines. Pretend that this tree is all ready there, growing through or near the lines, and needs to be cleared, but the public dont want to see them valley pruned. and just pretend we care what the public thinks for a moment.

EG more regular pruning visits? , or other techniques that dont leave the tree looking like shit basically.

Although if i can find the pic ill post it, when i was recently in Thailand,
i came across some cypress similar to the last pics. and in this same example growing under lines, but instead of just flattening them back to dead wood, they took the center out of the tree and left the tallest side branches. so in theory the tree looked like it hadnt been touched at all, and when i had a quick climb up it to have a look (i was allowed as theres NO OHS at all over there) to put it into prospective it was the shape of a V < taking the center out. looked rather appealing untill close inspection. ill try find the pics.

Anyways back to the question.
Eric are you able to "bump" it so that i can get some more hits on the topic please, as this would be a great help.

DSTrees

First time post.
I trimmed for the utility company or should I say a subcontractor utility company for 11 years and finally had to get out of the utility line clearance work. What we did to some trees was a crime but the safety factor far outweighs the tree dignity factor!

I have since started my own tree and landscape service company having a BS in ornamental horticulture from Delaware Valley College in Doylestown PA and also am a certified arborist who is passionate about trees.

The blame here lies with whoever designed the street tree planting, wrong trees in the wrong places produce conflict. The crew hired to trim these trees for the most part do their best given their situation. Far too often the working crew gets labeled hacks when given these circumstances there are no other alternatives. When utility lines are wrapped tightly together valley trimming is much easier but still looks ridiculous IMHO. For many years job security for these trimming crews was more important than tree dignity. As budgets get cut and utility rates keep climbing these issues of wire tree conflict become more obvious.

Existing utility line trimming is a safety necessity first and we should trim when necessary to ISA standards as I think this crew has done and I’m sure always does. These conflict issues can be minimized in the future with good design standards. Plant smaller, slow growing trees under utility lines. This will minimize trimming ultimately saving money and it would be great for the trees dignity too.

Mark Noy

Thanks for your post mate, good to see both sides, never having the "pleasure" to de dignify a clearance tree yet myself, how do u think the public view the bad cases as some pics above show, do u think this can affect us in the way of taking away our proffesionalism away and being rated as just a butcher, i have been called this before by an elderly lady who thought i cleared the lines near her house, have a stab at the question for me if u will, need as much info and opinions as possible.
Do you know any other techniques that can be used to prune these trees without valleying them?

DSTrees

Less trimming or softer trimming is more is better making the general public happier with results. Better customer results means less likely to call utility clearance crews hacks.
The less you trim the less hacked the trees look.
The less trimmed the less growth grows back meaning less frequent trimming needed.
Less trimming means more cooperation from owners more likely to listen to your techniques.
Less is more.

Apocalypsse

Just to add to this before going to work. There are new standards brought in by ESV, its universal 2m metre clearance for LV, no matter the thickness of the branch and 1 metre for service wires.

derwoodii

Yes the new 2010 line clearing regs will be a big issue if ESV who are the regulator enforce to the letter. The culprit is the Vic state gov writing and allowing to law these regs in knee jerk reaction to our bad bush fires 2009.
No tree fire has been started by a home lv insulated service in a suburb never not once.

Melbourne's famous tree-lined streets could be stripped | Herald Sun

In the past scaffold limbs and light leaf could be left within the clearance space 600mm plus what ever regrowth is added. So typically you cut about 1 metre for Lv insulated home service lines but you could leave solid limbs and get away with light leaf touchin but not rubbin. Now if a large limb within 600mm + regrowth of which there are thousands they must go so in effect whole trees maybe lost.
What the public have not realized is this will flow onto their garden trees as well so if enforced bye bye 10s of thousands front yard trees.
This is poor governance which is kinda what the threads about.

derwoodii

Most have been explored, perhaps now consider liftin or movin the lines or using ABC cable or offsettin the cross arms or undergroundin where you can. Plantin the right in the right place is far better now rare LG gets plantin wrongun now. Its the legacy trees from 20 /30 years back that haunt us trimmers now, in time they too will disappear.

Apocalypsse

Can't see this rule being enforced though, especially in the more richer suburbs like Toorak where people have connections and money. Wouldn't mind seeing the exact clearances they are proposing though.

YES! Raise the lines is the best option, or even just ABC. You drive around the the variance of the height of the lines is incredible. In some places its 5m and in others closer to 9m, in Lalor at the shops off Station St the LV is just under 4m with olive trees through the lines.