New Farm Jacarandas

Sean Freeman · 5th July 2007, 02:18 AM

Anyone got more news on the winthrow of two Jacarandas at New Farm today? The news is reporting BCC are going to have the remaining trees xrayed???? I don't put any store in news reporting but can anyone tell me what is happening please?

Ekka · 5th July 2007, 02:37 AM

I'll have a look tomorrow.

Many are on their way out anyway, too old and big now, plus mulch volcanos didn't help along with drought. They drive a tanker around watering them but you know how effective that is.

Adam Tom ought to know, he's always in there. Not so long ago I saw him in there and he was assessing trees and a bunch of pruning went on. He was measuring the canopy spread of a Jacaranda when I saw him.

Ekka · 6th July 2007, 12:52 AM

Had a look around 9.30am today, was a busy place, main gate boom down so had to walk from road.

Story is 1 Jacaranda fell.

It was the one dead opposite the play area, fell across the road and wrote off a near new Magna (crushed it). Had a person been in the car they'd be dead.

The trees roots were broken.

I have put in the pics I took, large files so you can see for yourself.

With the canopy removed hard to say there was no VTA symptoms, also recent pruning works may have removed dead wood, from memory these trees had large dying leaders ... two across the road were recently removed with ganoderma and die back.

Roots had pockets of punky wood, soft and light as cork, no fruiting bodies. The roots that snapped were in the lawn and windward side.

Other trees were barrier-ed off and checked.

There was a large girdling root, it was kerb side.

What you need to realise is that cars park the entire perimeter of the ring road, then there's paths and pedestrians/joggers etc.

In the 5 years I've been visiting the park I have noticed the decline. The evidence or indicator for this one would have been the crown ... die back.

It wasn't long ago that Jim1NZ and I were in the park and checking it out exactly there. From memory there was a significant leader heading toward the road that was looking pretty sad.

Looking at the roots I'd say the only way that would have been detected was to air spade away say 2m radius and multiple resistograph test. However many trees had some pruning works done etc.

Now a huge shadow of doubt is cast upon the remaining trees. With the target value etc hard call. Also not the first time for tree failures in the park, some poincianas are fenced off, I'm sure a kid got hurt when a large limb failed. I know when we visit the park I sometimes parked near that tree.

Big old jacarandas, maybe 80 years old, maybe 1m dia, maybe 60' to 70' tall .... what the future holds

Sean Freeman · 6th July 2007, 02:15 AM

Thankyou Ekka for the time and effort putting together those great photos, its amazing how removed from reality news reports can be, 2 trees crusing two cars!

For the record Ekka is spot on about the age of these lovely trees http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/projects/h...=602402&back=1
scroll down and you'll find the reference to the planting date of over 100 Jacarandas 1914. Now just so we're all clear I do not put any tree above the value of one human life, however I am extremely passionate about our historic trees....might seem odd to any of our European site members getting all emotional about 90-100 yrs old trees but in Oz they are (with few exceptions) our settler history and it does matter.

The council had removed the upper canopy but here a shot from a German tourist back in 2006 of the same line of trees,

IMG_3243.jpg

A few points come to mind from Ekka's photos the exposed and torn stem/root tissues look suspiciously like numerous trees I've had the misfortune to autopsy here in Townsville as a result of Ganoderma sp overwhelming the root system, but trying to make accurate diagnosis from photos is pretty silly...

The older a tree gets the less able it is to withstand any external pressures, be they biotic or abiotic in nature, these Jacarandas whilst a long way short of the potential life span 200yrs+ are in a very altered soil environment and reliant on very uncertain water, nutrient and soil elemental cycling. It seems an all too common response to aging tree populations to get out the chainsaw and start reducing the percieved problem, however for me the solution to the understandable public concern at percieved threats from aging trees, is to implement Plant Health Care PHC, deal with the real problems in the soil that are challanging the tree's genetic ability to continue to produce reliable healthy growth.

You could argue that these trees are too close to the kerb, that the visible lean in each of them necessitates some reductive pruning, and maybe if you got me on site I'd agree...maybe.

I just really hope that BCC recognise the great value these historic trees have, and give that significant consideration in the decision making they will carry out with regards the New Farm Jacarandas.

Thanks again to Ekka for going out of his way to provide us all with the pics and the accurate info.

Ekka · 6th July 2007, 03:10 AM

You can see what I mean about cars now Boa from those pics.

So how old, is the oldest Jacaranda around Brisbane I wonder? I know I've seen a couple of other big huas in inner city blocks and they're breaking up, maybe 80 years+ is it for suburbia for an imported species.

Anyway, they are old and that's why they succumb to things easier. About 2.5 years ago they took out another further around by the river side (still next to road but on river side of ring road). We happened to be in that park for my college course and we checked a few and were surprised they weren't felled.

That one, after we all inspected it was felled not long after.

The other thing, for that Jacaranda with the wind blowing that direction ... it's a fringe tree now. But it grew up all it's life in that environment, even got mulched and watered and pruned a bit here and there.

I would say, as far as tree care goes, it got a better share than most trees. But maybe 80 to 100 year old Jacarandas are toward the end of their life cycle in an urban system ...

... you know, pollution, traffic, pedestrians, dogs etc all bringing their own forms of toxins and pathogens in.

Now, the two across the road went from a fully foliage looking tree to a dead one with fruiting bodies in like 12 months.

The thing is it's either green or dead, not much in between in most cases. The hard part is looking after green trees, be like sending healthy people to the doctor, but by the time we see the problems it can be too late. The pathogen has multiplied. Secret is as the tree gets older it needs more TLC and it's requirements for sustenance is insatiable, it needs a lot of resources.

Personally, having gone there so many times and slowly watched the deterioration I think it's a natural course of events.

Boa, in shot 5, cast you eyes over the fig in the background on the top LH side, those canopies are pretty sparse too now.

It's not a year of drought, but like 4 years of low rainfall. To a tree that's lived with it's 1200mm of rain a year to suffer 4 years of little rain when it's a big mature tree it will be susceptible to problems, and here the problems are at ground level. What you see in the canopy is just a reflexion.

Sean Freeman · 6th July 2007, 03:43 AM

Ekka I agree with you that this decline has been going on for many years, and 2007 may be too late, PHC could have helped some of thesse trees...as you say no one wants to invest in the upkeep of what are apparently green healthy trees!

The crazy thing is it is PHC not expensive in resources or capital, one water filled traffic barrier per tree with a weeper hose running under properly spread aged mulch, quaterly soil treatments all of which can be included into the irrigation water in the barrier, the water coming from rainwater tanks, or filtered grey water...it doesn't even take much imagination to throw a few ideas out right here. Whilst the local community remains uninformed, uninvolved, and marginalised by the operation of Council I hold little hope for those trees...again accepting that if I were on site I might take a more pessimistic view about their short term life span.

Ekka · 6th July 2007, 01:34 PM

Yeah, paint the traffic barrier green, how much water do they hold?

I was thinking over night ...

These trees (although planted) only have half the root system they're entitled to coz of the road. So their behind the 8 ball to begin with.

If the tree had equal amount of roots roadside then they'd have double the amount of water and nutrient up take for their mass.

Now listen. The trees on the other side of the road that are now gone ... I remember why.

If council cares to go back on their plans they'll find they poured a new concrete path and trenched deep about 4' for services. That was within 4m of the trunks and I estimate approx 2004/2005. I recall the activities and was going to ring and stir them up some saying I knew who killed the Jacarandas ... they did, when they cut off a huge chunk of the roots on a tree that already only had half it's entitlements. After that they declined in a year and got fruiting bodies.

Council, go check your plans, my memory is correct.

Also, in the lawn area approx 5m away from the jacaranda was a square concrete lid ... water/irrigation/services? I wonder if there was any trenching activities that side? Council would have the details I'm sure.

Sean Freeman · 6th July 2007, 02:45 PM

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Counncil works dept doing exactly the opposite of what is required to ensure healthy longevity

Engineering just won't consider talking to tree protection.......

The crash barriers hold 650lts heres three shots of one being used at Royal Pines residential to irrigated recently transplanted.....jacaranda!

Booths Jac, watering tank (1).JPG

Booths Jac, watering tank (2).JPG

Booths Jac, watering tank (3).JPG

Daniel Oaten has painted a number of these and used green shade cloth to camoflage them.

Ekka · 6th July 2007, 07:07 PM

Got a lot of money that joint. And got a hell of a sea food banquet all you can eat too!

TrevMcRev · 8th July 2007, 12:46 AM

The barriers are being used down here too.
Heres some of our BCC's work (Bayside City Council!)

Its an avenue of Oaks just smack bang in the middle of suburban back streets. I'd love to live in this street, but the ave home is $1.5m

Sean Freeman · 8th July 2007, 11:13 PM

Hmmm...someones making money out of this....http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/1973424.htm
Lets get us some whizzbang fandodle gizmo thingy to tell us which trees we should cut down...shame there's no profession out there that could assist BCC in the long term management of their tree risks, there should be and they could be called those who study trees or something like that and in latin to make it sound better......Am I alone in thinking this is just the tinyest bit nuts?

Ekka · 9th July 2007, 12:03 AM

LOL

I could do with that machine too, it's set to take down mode with 4 out of 5 trees xrayed coming out. I'd crank it up to 5 out of 5 though.

Is it the picus that they got off lets see ... Enspec? Bet you $100 it is, Craig Hallam be looking for a sale ontop of the consultation fee.

The accuracy of the "xray" devices has been long under scrutiny and the results re-checked with resistograph prior to a take down.

In this instance it was a broken root, can xray roots too? Maybe roots 2m away? Also, fat lot of good any device is when you are dealing with wind throw and broken roots, the healthiest of trees goes over.

The situation is, over mature trees, lots of targets. Who, even with all the gadgets is going to give a "it's safe enough"?

And this type of fiasco is exactly why thousands of people dont like big trees and cut them down, especially gum trees, coz the risk is too high for a lot of people.

I like the way everyone has milked the hell out of the account (BCC - New Farm Park) and the trees go anyway. LOL

Sean Freeman · 9th July 2007, 12:29 AM

Well you're probably right about the Pico $$$$'s for Craig maybe.

Personally wouldn't class the trees as over mature, nowhere near that, but certainly under severe pressure form all that has and has not been done to their root systems.

What I find most frustrating about instances like this is yes it will be played out in the press as unsafe trees being removed and remaining trees being made safe....rubbish no tree is "safe" there is risk in all trees, in all things in fact. We all accept huge levels of risk in our lives every single day but as a community seem to have tree phobia or at least big tree phobia.

There are lots of options for the management of these trees and even trees in a worse state than these jacarandas. There are enormous values associated with bigger older trees, but this seldom if ever gets discussed or calculated...just a tree, or 2, or 3 cut them down, plant some others (only they rarely ever do)

It is possible to quantify the risk in these and all the trees owned by BCC, it could then be possible for the council to decide on what level of risk they will accept and how they will manage the assessed risk in specific trees..it does not have to envolve the removal of trees or parts of trees...it might...but it doesn't have to.

The values that big trees have should be part of what the council is projecting out into the community, how much carbon, how much airborne pollution, how much UV interception, temperature modification, rainfall interception etc...... then maybe more people would put more value on their own trees, and make better informed decisions about weighing real risk against real value.

Ekka · 9th July 2007, 03:49 AM

Good fuel for removal of large trees, did you see what happened at New Farm Park ... crikey those big trees are dangerous, even well cared for council ones that haven't had the tree loppers onto them and been looked after by consultants failed!

I can tell you now this week my calls have doubled.

People talk about it, and arbophobia is alive and well, thanks BCC.

Ekka · 13th July 2007, 04:48 AM

Post copied from this thread about decay Assessing Fungal Decay

Boa

I found the pics I took 19th March 2006 of the Jacaranda in New Farm park I reported to BCC.

Look at the canopy compared to the others.

Note the fruiting bodies all around.

Note the mulch, new path etc.

Two were removed, that one and one next to it further west. Pity I didn't take an avenue shot.

I'll have to link this post to the New Farm Jacarandas thread.

5th July 2007, 02:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	New Farm Jacarandas Anyone got more news on the winthrow of two Jacarandas at New Farm today? The news is reporting BCC are going to have the remaining trees xrayed???? I don't put any store in news reporting but can anyone tell me what is happening please? __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

5th July 2007, 02:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	I'll have a look tomorrow. Many are on their way out anyway, too old and big now, plus mulch volcanos didn't help along with drought. They drive a tanker around watering them but you know how effective that is. Adam Tom ought to know, he's always in there. Not so long ago I saw him in there and he was assessing trees and a bunch of pruning went on. He was measuring the canopy spread of a Jacaranda when I saw him. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th July 2007, 03:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	*You can see what I mean about cars now Boa from those pics.* So how old, is the oldest Jacaranda around Brisbane I wonder? I know I've seen a couple of other big huas in inner city blocks and they're breaking up, maybe 80 years+ is it for suburbia for an imported species. Anyway, they are old and that's why they succumb to things easier. About 2.5 years ago they took out another further around by the river side (still next to road but on river side of ring road). We happened to be in that park for my college course and we checked a few and were surprised they weren't felled. That one, after we all inspected it was felled not long after. The other thing, for that Jacaranda with the wind blowing that direction ... it's a fringe tree now. But it grew up all it's life in that environment, even got mulched and watered and pruned a bit here and there. I would say, as far as tree care goes, it got a better share than most trees. But maybe 80 to 100 year old Jacarandas are toward the end of their life cycle in an urban system ... ... you know, pollution, traffic, pedestrians, dogs etc all bringing their own forms of toxins and pathogens in. Now, the two across the road went from a fully foliage looking tree to a dead one with fruiting bodies in like 12 months. The thing is it's either green or dead, not much in between in most cases. The hard part is looking after green trees, be like sending healthy people to the doctor, but by the time we see the problems it can be too late. The pathogen has multiplied. Secret is as the tree gets older it needs more TLC and it's requirements for sustenance is insatiable, it needs a lot of resources. Personally, having gone there so many times and slowly watched the deterioration I think it's a natural course of events. Boa, in shot 5, cast you eyes over the fig in the background on the top LH side, those canopies are pretty sparse too now. It's not a year of drought, but like 4 years of low rainfall. To a tree that's lived with it's 1200mm of rain a year to suffer 4 years of little rain when it's a big mature tree it will be susceptible to problems, and here the problems are at ground level. What you see in the canopy is just a reflexion. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th July 2007, 03:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Ekka I agree with you that this decline has been going on for many years, and 2007 may be too late, PHC could have helped some of thesse trees...as you say no one wants to invest in the upkeep of what are apparently green healthy trees! The crazy thing is it is PHC not expensive in resources or capital, one water filled traffic barrier per tree with a weeper hose running under properly spread aged mulch, quaterly soil treatments all of which can be included into the irrigation water in the barrier, the water coming from rainwater tanks, or filtered grey water...it doesn't even take much imagination to throw a few ideas out right here. Whilst the local community remains uninformed, uninvolved, and marginalised by the operation of Council I hold little hope for those trees...again accepting that if I were on site I might take a more pessimistic view about their short term life span. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran Last edited by Sean Freeman : 6th July 2007 at 04:28 AM. Reason: As previous post incorrect id of tree in photo

6th July 2007, 01:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Yeah, paint the traffic barrier green, how much water do they hold? I was thinking over night ... These trees (although planted) only have half the root system they're entitled to coz of the road. So their behind the 8 ball to begin with. If the tree had equal amount of roots roadside then they'd have double the amount of water and nutrient up take for their mass. Now listen. The trees on the other side of the road that are now gone ... I remember why. If council cares to go back on their plans they'll find they poured a new concrete path and trenched deep about 4' for services. That was within 4m of the trunks and I estimate approx 2004/2005. I recall the activities and was going to ring and stir them up some saying I knew who killed the Jacarandas ... they did, when they cut off a huge chunk of the roots on a tree that already only had half it's entitlements. After that they declined in a year and got fruiting bodies. Council, go check your plans, my memory is correct. Also, in the lawn area approx 5m away from the jacaranda was a square concrete lid ... water/irrigation/services? I wonder if there was any trenching activities that side? Council would have the details I'm sure. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th July 2007, 02:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Why doesn't that surprise me? Counncil works dept doing exactly the opposite of what is required to ensure healthy longevity Engineering just won't consider talking to tree protection....... The crash barriers hold 650lts heres three shots of one being used at Royal Pines residential to irrigated recently transplanted.....jacaranda! Booths Jac, watering tank (1).JPG Booths Jac, watering tank (2).JPG Booths Jac, watering tank (3).JPG Daniel Oaten has painted a number of these and used green shade cloth to camoflage them. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

6th July 2007, 07:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Got a lot of money that joint. And got a hell of a sea food banquet all you can eat too! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th July 2007, 11:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Hmmm...someones making money out of this....http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...09/1973424.htm Lets get us some whizzbang fandodle gizmo thingy to tell us which trees we should cut down...shame there's no profession out there that could assist BCC in the long term management of their tree risks, there should be and they could be called those who study trees or something like that and in latin to make it sound better......Am I alone in thinking this is just the tinyest bit nuts? __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

9th July 2007, 12:03 AM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	LOL I could do with that machine too, it's set to take down mode with 4 out of 5 trees xrayed coming out. I'd crank it up to 5 out of 5 though. Is it the picus that they got off lets see ... Enspec? Bet you $100 it is, Craig Hallam be looking for a sale ontop of the consultation fee. The accuracy of the "xray" devices has been long under scrutiny and the results re-checked with resistograph prior to a take down. In this instance it was a broken root, can xray roots too? Maybe roots 2m away? Also, fat lot of good any device is when you are dealing with wind throw and broken roots, the healthiest of trees goes over. The situation is, over mature trees, lots of targets. Who, even with all the gadgets is going to give a "it's safe enough"? And this type of fiasco is exactly why thousands of people dont like big trees and cut them down, especially gum trees, coz the risk is too high for a lot of people. I like the way everyone has milked the hell out of the account (BCC - New Farm Park) and the trees go anyway. LOL __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th July 2007, 12:29 AM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Well you're probably right about the Pico $$$$'s for Craig maybe. Personally wouldn't class the trees as over mature, nowhere near that, but certainly under severe pressure form all that has and has not been done to their root systems. What I find most frustrating about instances like this is yes it will be played out in the press as unsafe trees being removed and remaining trees being made safe....rubbish no tree is "safe" there is risk in all trees, in all things in fact. We all accept huge levels of risk in our lives every single day but as a community seem to have tree phobia or at least big tree phobia. There are lots of options for the management of these trees and even trees in a worse state than these jacarandas. There are enormous values associated with bigger older trees, but this seldom if ever gets discussed or calculated...just a tree, or 2, or 3 cut them down, plant some others (only they rarely ever do) It is possible to quantify the risk in these and all the trees owned by BCC, it could then be possible for the council to decide on what level of risk they will accept and how they will manage the assessed risk in specific trees..it does not have to envolve the removal of trees or parts of trees...it might...but it doesn't have to. The values that big trees have should be part of what the council is projecting out into the community, how much carbon, how much airborne pollution, how much UV interception, temperature modification, rainfall interception etc...... then maybe more people would put more value on their own trees, and make better informed decisions about weighing real risk against real value. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

9th July 2007, 03:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Good fuel for removal of large trees, did you see what happened at New Farm Park ... crikey those big trees are dangerous, even well cared for council ones that haven't had the tree loppers onto them and been looked after by consultants failed! I can tell you now this week my calls have doubled. People talk about it, and arbophobia is alive and well, thanks BCC. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors