More BCC hatracking

rangitata

I have just had a discussion with an recently ex-council worker about this tree.
The councils own tree crews did the work (very loose use of the word "work")

It has stirred things up internally apparently, with much discussion amongst council tree staff.

Good luck on your latest crusade Ekka if the squeaky wheel gets the oil the Exon Valdez is on its way to your place

justoon

Ekka,I was just in Balmoral on Monday and noticed the fine pruning of the paperbarks under the powerlines.Cant remember the name of the street but it was oppisite the AFL club ground. Every one of them looked like rabbits funny but sad yet funny

Eric Frei

I bet it's Riding road Balmoral, at least I can understand why when they are under power lines.

I have had council prune some for clients along that road ... as you know the new practice is "VEEing" them out for the wires above but many are multi-stemmed as you know ... very hard to know if you have a good fork or not with that species and you get bust outs. The long branches grow at 45degree angle over the front fences of places, ready to bust out so we had them trimmed off and back. My suspicions on many were that maybe 15 year ago they were topped off at 3m high.

It is ugly for sure, I think it would be wise to commence a replanting scheme and start getting rid of them.

Guys, mind you with all the BS I see remember BCC reckons it wants a L5 to write arb reports yet from what I see of the trees worked on you may as well be a welder or mechanic coz aint much making sense.

You want more pics of dead habitat trees right along side roads ... I'll get them, here's a few locations.

Dead tree adjacent to car park and car park entrance, no signage, also hatracked, Murarrie Recreation Ground Murarrie off Wynnum road.

Dead tree, footpath & side of road, Tilley road Gumdale just south of New Cleveland road.

Also, why were most trees in New Farm Park over mulched up the trunks for a number of years? Pseudo mulch volcanoes, recently they have been inspected and the mulch pulled away but that's almost 2 years later and it was because the trees were being assessed by Adam Tom just recently.

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rangitata

Its not limited to the BCC.

If you want to see a sight of absolute carnage a quick trip through the side streets on the Redcliffe Peninsula. Throughout this whole area the Power companies and locol gov have created streetscapes that are "crimes against nature".

Every time i drive through i leave shaking my head in horror. Will take some photos if time allows next time i am in the area.

Eric Frei

Yeah get some pics, I don't go up that way much ... since the tip doubled it's price on dumping! They talk about anti-competitive behaviour so Redland shire pretty much matched BCC on tips rates, that's collusion.

Any chance you can dig up their tree protection order scheme and post that in our section? Maybe we can get them to fine themselves like some of the USA counties have. When a county makes a breach of it's own VPO regs it is fined and the fine amount of money goes to the neighbouring counties.

True story. Makes the counties keep an eye out eh.

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Eric Frei

An update.

This is true, and due to threats of being sued by the council officer that rang me for today I wont mention his name.

We'll call him X for the exercise.

Last Tuesday, 24 April at 8.39am X from Brisbane City Council Assets Management rang from number 384071589 and left a message for me to call him back via the call centre 34038888 which I did within the hour. Left a message.

Friday 27 April 11.50am I rang the number that came up in my phone 384071589 and left another message, with a lady, mentioned this was 2nd call back for X.

Tuesday 1 May around 10am I rang 34038888 the main call centre. Now that it has been a week I asked the guy who took the call what the council policy was on call backs ... like another company I worked in it was a 2 hour policy. I also mentioned it was the 3rd call back for this X and 1 week had passed.

11.51am X rang me. X said his call back delays were due to fighting fires (I didn't call the fire dept but the council though). X said the trees were part of council assets and the arborists were happy with the work they'd done.

I mentioned that details were posted on a public forum and no professional arborists were happy with the tree for the location and lack of signage or public awareness.

I stated the tree defied our knowledge and training of suitable habitat management and information was available on this site.

X proceeded to tell me that Brisbane City Council owned the trees and as such could do whatever they liked to them, that they weren't bound by laws, they had total autonomy and the information on this site is SHIT.

I mentioned the information on this site came from many sources including respected universities and colleges as well as professional educated arborists. X said they got their own people and information and could do as they please and that there were just as many people saying they were happy with the tree.

I asked why he was talking to me and not an arborist in the decision making process and if they were so clever and knowledgable why wouldn't they wish to share their grandeur on a forum where this was all documented. X responded that they don't talk in public forums.

I said on any given topics there'll be those for and against, and we wanted to see the reasoning behind their decisions. To that X said they dont have to explain anything to anyone, they own the trees and that's that. To which I responded that they are accountable to the community and Stalin style suppressive govt is history, we are an educated society looking for reasoning.

By now he was huffing and puffing, scoffing and carrying on like a child. I told him I would be putting the details of the conversation on the public forum along with his name and position to which he responded ...
... then abruptly hung up.

11.56am I rang 34038888 and reported the phone call and the threat and the language of X.

X was representing a govt body, can he sue? Can council sue? The BCC call centre records it's phone calls, that's right. The inbound calls from ordinary people, I wonder if they recorded the call between X and I, I sure wish I did. I bet they don't record the outbound calls of their people.

So there we have it, you make your own mind up. It aint over yet, but this isn't a surprise to me.

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Drouin Tree Service

Information on this sites shit?I doubt it this guy needs a good foot up the behind for his unwillingness to front the issue and slandering a forum made to provide up-to-date information on tree related issues.

I hope mr "X" thinks thru his actions more clearly,can i please have his name forwarded so i can personally adress this matter.

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Eric Frei

Sure, check your PM's.

Lopa, next time a trees protected just tell the council ... It's Mr Smiths land, he owns the tree and what he does to it is his business and none of the governments, he can do whatever he likes. I wonder how they like that?

Also, I knew this would be about the caliber of treatment from previous dealings. Do you remember this story, well, they didn't respond in any reasonable fashion to that either.

http://www.????????????.com/showthread.php?t=36524

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Sean Freeman

Ok I've been giving this quite a lot of thought (something mr X should have done too BTW) seems to me after rereading the original posts the only offensive language prior to Ekka's phone encounter came from me, describing the standard of work.

So let me clarify a few things for any BCC employees, officers etc.. who may be reading this. I have worked indirectly for BCC through another contractor, so cannot speak with personal certainty of their policies and procedures in such situations as we have here. However I have worked directly with Gold Coast CC, Townsville CC, Thuringowa CC, Charters Towers CC, Hinchinbrook, Flinders and Cardwell Shire Councils. In each and every case these councils have very clearly defined procedures relating to the manner in which inquiries and complaints are dealt with....none of these protocols include the verbal abuse and threatening of members of the public (well not that I'm aware of). It seems to me based on the information provided by Ekka that mr X response betrays either a complete lack of understanding of what the issue is here, or an inability to communicate with others without resorting to base insults. Either way he seems to be an completely innapropriate person to represent BCC in this instance.

All councils have to deal with hundreds of questions and queries about actions they take in the public spaces they are responsible for, and that is how it should be.....something to with accountability I think. We have raised a whole range of relevant and pertinent questions regarding this tree and the works undertaken on it. The passion with which we feel about these issues reflects our commitment to the environmental values that underpin all the work we undertake ourselves day to day.
BCC have written commitments to the very same environmental values throughout their urban planning, vegetation management and protection documents.
Mr X seems decidedly ill prepared in that he was not able to provide Ekka with a generic explaination of the action relating to the tallow wood that began this thread. (Not that such an explaination would have been satisfactory, but it would have been something!)

It is quite possible that someone in council or contracted to council has decided that this tree could be "turned into habitat", but we have previously listed numerous problems relating to both the initial criteria of assessment and the techniques applied in this case, in addition to the importance of informing the public what is happening to this tree and why. Raising the level of public awareness of the councils commitment to enhancing the local environmental values would seem like simple common sense...maybe not all that common?

It is very dissapointing that an officer of the council of our State's capital city can't engage with a rate payer without resorting to such pointless name calling. Maybe he was having the worst day of his life, I don't know, all that has been achieved by his verbal actions is to create the impression that in the case of this tree there has been a failure to apply proper environmental management standards.

I hope that some council officers will read this thread and that they feel they can contribute even if it is by contacting Ekka as the Administrator, and he can relay their opinions/responses to allow them to remain anonimous. Thus far the actions and words of the council representatives we have encountered have done nothing to make any of us feel confident about either the motives or the outcomes regarding this tree.

Drouin Tree Service

Agreed Boa,Especially when the rate payer is a level 5 arborist just trying to help him out! shame on the BCC

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Drouin Tree Services | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland | Landclearing Melbourne

Sean Freeman

I'm putting this link here (from a post on another forum) because I do think its related have a read of the article and then write down what your reactions are. It is depressing, and its not all that removed from what is happening here in Oz...some questions you can either respond to or not as you wish....what is the way forward from this mess? what is our role as Arborists in moving down that way?

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/cl...071120,00.html

Sean Freeman

I quess what I'm getting at is how do we move from the above to a situation similar to this http://www.city.palo-alto.ca.us/plan...ree_index.html and this http://www.canopy.org/index.html
Not saying that there aren't many problems and road blocks to overcome at Palo Alto but saying the model is one that should be adapted everywhere to local conditions...surely?

Eric Frei

A wise man recently told me when the council works with the community and treats the trees as co-owned rather than "mind your own business" or "we'll fine you" you may start to get progress.

Frankly, it's easily fixed, very easily.

Also when the town planners allocate reasonable room and stop thinking about the high density matchbox boom we might have room for trees rather than lollipops. Well planned communities have room for trees and parks but when the urban blocks as far out as Springfield drop down to 280m2 and walls become fences then trees are history.

BCC also enjoys ecologists telling both owner/builders and estate developers what's the go. I have seen the larger more defective trees retained in the wrong place providing lots of waste over the semi mature right placed ... there's even court battles over these things.

I also consistently see poor tree protection on building sites and a few years later trees die.

Yes, it's a mess, typical of a fat system where many links of chain need to be broken and the political/ power plays need to take a back seat to common sense and logic.

I know on one of my jobs their senior arborist was trying to persuade an backhoe operator to scrape the drip line and trunk flair clean so he could see the roots, this was on a large euc where already around 60% to 70& of the roots area was compromised ... fortunately they refused due to the new fibre optics that were laid in a 1200mm trench dug 1m away from the trunk.

To fix it in a nut shell it's simple, but it was impossible to convert Ansett to Virgin Air with the same people and mentality however Virgin air today provides more flights with 1/4 the staff and cheaper. It can be done.

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rangitata

This was in pur local paper today. Again its the BCC. Its another example of customer service/professionalisim.
http://paper.questnews.com.au/QST_NWN/nwn012.pdf

Eric Frei

Well, there you go, it must have been raining so they didn't get out of their car.

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lopper

hey ekka

have you learnt anymore past Level III?

Eric Frei

Yeah

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Bernard Keays

Eric,

Did you get a reply from the Council? I'm not sure what happened here but the Shire I work for have treated dead trees in a similar way to preserve hollows and manage risk. I'm not condoning BCC but I think it is important to retain habitat trees where possible....public safety is still an overriding factor/priority.

Eric Frei

Bernard, no response.

They're doing what they're best at .... keep you in the dark.

That's poor selection for habitat and an bloody huge billboard for malpractice, let alone unacceptable maintenance and risk.

Totally defies all common logic and everything I've understood about habitat tree selection and placement.

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Eric Frei

Every picture tells a story don't it!

The wheels were turning slow however it appears they weren't seized.

Attached Thumbnails

         

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ARGTrees

I was going to say they have taken it down but you obviously have found it also. You see these things when you drive around the whole city every week quoting!!!!

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ARGtrees Truck and Chipper Hire Australia

Garry Brockley

I do work for my local council now and i have to say that the person in charge is great, they are willing to listen to reason and can see the poor hatchet jobs that some of the previous contractors have done, i have taken on a whole can of worms with some of these trees.
they say what they would like but are listening to what actually should be done and understanding why. it's like a breath of fresh air to be honest.

It seems that it has become standard procedure for sycamores and horse chestnuts to be pollarded to within an inch of their lives (or massacred as i call it). even prunus, i have some horrendous pictures of pollarded cherries but i know who worked on them and id rather not stir that one up.

There seems to be some kind of wierd mind set in some individuals and companies that turning a perfectly good 40 ft tree into a 25 ft pole or 15ft stump is a good practice i thought it was just the uk but it appears to be global.
I see only one way to begin to change this mind set and thats through training,
1)start with the tree officers, train them to see and know correct pruning procedures,
2)then ensure that every climbing ticket holder (except aerial rescue guys)has to have a certified knowledge of pruning procedures before being allowed to work for local auth, and if the individuals/companies don't meet these standards then they should be fined.
You could eventually take it further and ensure that everyone working on trees professionally has to be up to a certain standard. Oh of course the uk already has and it stopped short, leaving it so anyone can hack a tree because there is no policing body to enforce the standards.
IMO of course.

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pollywoggin

Hello everyone,
This is my first post here and am from US. I've read through this entire post with horror at the situation as well.
However, I noticed one thing mentioned several times, relating to your councils. in Australia, do THE COUNCILS OWN THE TREES? Here in the states, it's considered public lands and they would have to answer to us if enough of us rallied against that particular governing body. Is it the same there, or have I misunderstood? Thanks,
Nicci D

treejames64

We get people doing this here also yet the home owners, businesses know exactly what they are doing. Live oaks over a certain size are heritage trees and require permitting-replanting to remove. Therefore the owner has the tree topped around 20 ft above ground level. He lets it sprout out and takes the crappy comments for a few years and than cuts it down when it dies. Therfore he avoids the extra costs involved in removing the tree. Some businesses will hat rack a whole lot of trees. They are changing the laws now to stop this however the new law has no real penalty.