More BCC hatracking

Ekka · 5th March 2007, 10:33 PM

BCC response I received today.

Quote:

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: BCC online request reference number: OR22416913

Dear Mr Frei,

Thank you for submitting your enquiry to the Brisbane City Council.

In January 2007 an officer with Local Asset Services inspected the tree located on the corner of Holland Road and Glindemann Drive and reported the tree had been struck by lightning and subsequently died.

The tree was considered to be in a suitable location to act as a habitat tree. To ensure public safety the tree was significantly lopped removing the main branches and the trunk will be retained to provide a habitat for
local fauna.

If you have any further Brisbane City Council enquiries, please complete
the Contact Us page available from the home page at
www.brisbane.qld.gov.au or phone our 24 hour Contact Centre on (07) 3403 8888.

Yours faithfully,

Sebastian
Officer Code: A-CRMVPS

My reply I returned

Quote:

Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: BCC online request reference number: OR22416913

Sebastian

That tree is above a footpath and close to busy roads. Being dead, and dead well over a year it will only break apart showering debris and causing possible harm. Also the tree doesn't seem to have any hollows for nesting or
foliage for birds other than the higher chain predators (crows, magpies). It will only be a roosting point for the higher chain predators to use as a view point.

It is also a serious eye sore to malpractice pruning in a prominent location.

Responsible habitat management usually ensures no targets nearby, fencing of some description to keep people away and signage to notify people of what the ugliness and improper pruning is all about.

I would like you to address these issues, and also consult your legal people regarding negligence for having a disintegrating tree above a busy thoroughfare.

The views of many people can be seen at
More BCC hatracking where I'll also paste these emails. Many are watching, and the many are high caliber arborists and council officers of other areas intrigued by the display's of the BCC when it comes to tree work.

Regards
Eric Frei
www.treeworld.info

TrevMcRev · 6th March 2007, 12:07 AM

Hey ekka, that last post kinda beat me to it. When i saw the 1st pics i were SHOCKED. To butcher trees like that in situations where they are made a public example is ridiculous. The public see this being done by the very council that governs them so of course they think they should do the same. Its an ongoing battle to change the ideas in many laymans head on how to treat trees when it has been done this way for generations prior. Now that science has taught us how to treat trees with respect to their natural systems, we arborists are doing our best to turn things around and are set back 20 years by things like this.

I know of some "habitat" trees down here. A few in a golf course that has some very rare fauna for the suburbs. And also of some on council land in a heritage protected street ( National Trust & local council). This pocket is tightly protected, NO tree can be TOUCHED at all without a full Arborist Report done and approved prior. And they will rarely allow more than deadwooding. (This is where we did a Sequoia last week) Anyway the "habitat" trees are usually cut back way harder than the one youve showed, leaving large diameter wood and short stubs only. This lessons the chance of falling parts as it breaks down and its structure disintergrates.

And the main thing is, it is really only suitable to 'habitat' a tree where significant fauna exist, and a low target rating is likely. This looks like a busy suburban intersection. Not really appropriate place to keep a tree like this.

I believe this tree should now be removed.

If there really is significant fauna in the area, and it is desired to retain it, then this council should send a crew back to further reduce it so safer, rope the area off to the public and put up signage explaining why this has been done and why you should not do it to your own tree.

Sean Freeman · 6th March 2007, 12:34 AM

You both make very good points,and it will be interesting to see if BCC reply with more than a short curtious email.

The provision of habitat for native fauna in urban areas is very important, but as many of us have noted this tree does not seem to fit the criteria. It maybe that BCC did have someone qualified report on the tree, and possible that someone with a level 4 or above CALM did decide to turn this tree into habitat...possible...but not likely.

It should be the case that BCC have undertaken a documented risk assessment of the tree before and after the "work" was completed. If not their procedures are well and truely lacking, and worse they leave themselves open to liability should anything happen as a result of the work.

If I put on my cutting crew hat, I think it is possible the job was not done according to the specs originally thought through by whomever decided to make it a habitat tree, either because they didn't convey any specs at all or the specs were vague and beyond the crew.

Whatever the real course of events its most unlikely that anyone outside BCC will ever know them. What we're left with is a tree that looks unlike any habitat tree I've ever seen, looks like a lop job, and is a lop job. The smaller diameter branches will fail over time causing at the very least maintenance issues if not worse. The larger branches are likely to stay up there for a long while yet.....unless of course the tree is colonised by agressive funal pathogens (if its not already...what killed it)

Bottom line for me is given the time I spend writing reports, management plans and tree work specifications for all sorts of clients including many LGA's this example of "work" is not good enough, it falls well short of any acceptable benchmarks for arboricultural practices in any area, let alone a public one.

SF

Ekka · 6th March 2007, 02:49 AM

And from our thread on habitat trees post 2

Habitat Trees

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

A habitat tree on the footpath for example is risky for both humans and critters.

Very well said guys.

Ekka · 27th March 2007, 01:17 AM

I just sent a reminder email....

Quote:

It's been 3 weeks now and no response.

Why?

Regards
Eric Frei

rangitata · 27th March 2007, 08:42 PM

I have just had a discussion with an recently ex-council worker about this tree.
The councils own tree crews did the work

(very loose use of the word "work")

It has stirred things up internally apparently, with much discussion amongst council tree staff.

Good luck on your latest crusade Ekka

if the squeaky wheel gets the oil the Exon Valdez is on its way to your place

justoon · 27th March 2007, 09:09 PM

Ekka,I was just in Balmoral on Monday and noticed the fine pruning of the paperbarks under the powerlines.Cant remember the name of the street but it was oppisite the AFL club ground. Every one of them looked like rabbits

funny but sad yet funny

Ekka · 27th March 2007, 10:24 PM

I bet it's Riding road Balmoral, at least I can understand why when they are under power lines.

I have had council prune some for clients along that road ... as you know the new practice is "VEEing" them out for the wires above but many are multi-stemmed as you know ... very hard to know if you have a good fork or not with that species and you get bust outs. The long branches grow at 45degree angle over the front fences of places, ready to bust out so we had them trimmed off and back. My suspicions on many were that maybe 15 year ago they were topped off at 3m high.

It is ugly for sure, I think it would be wise to commence a replanting scheme and start getting rid of them.

Guys, mind you with all the BS I see remember BCC reckons it wants a L5 to write arb reports yet from what I see of the trees worked on you may as well be a welder or mechanic coz aint much making sense.

You want more pics of dead habitat trees right along side roads ... I'll get them, here's a few locations.

Dead tree adjacent to car park and car park entrance, no signage, also hatracked, Murarrie Recreation Ground Murarrie off Wynnum road.

Dead tree, footpath & side of road, Tilley road Gumdale just south of New Cleveland road.

Also, why were most trees in New Farm Park over mulched up the trunks for a number of years? Pseudo mulch volcanoes, recently they have been inspected and the mulch pulled away but that's almost 2 years later and it was because the trees were being assessed by Adam Tom just recently.

rangitata · 28th March 2007, 08:39 PM

Its not limited to the BCC.

If you want to see a sight of absolute carnage a quick trip through the side streets on the Redcliffe Peninsula. Throughout this whole area the Power companies and locol gov have created streetscapes that are "crimes against nature".

Every time i drive through i leave shaking my head in horror. Will take some photos if time allows next time i am in the area.

Ekka · 29th March 2007, 12:35 AM

Yeah get some pics, I don't go up that way much ... since the tip doubled it's price on dumping! They talk about anti-competitive behaviour so Redland shire pretty much matched BCC on tips rates, that's collusion.

Any chance you can dig up their tree protection order scheme and post that in our section? Maybe we can get them to fine themselves like some of the USA counties have. When a county makes a breach of it's own VPO regs it is fined and the fine amount of money goes to the neighbouring counties.

True story. Makes the counties keep an eye out eh.

Ekka · 1st May 2007, 12:29 AM

An update.

This is true, and due to threats of being sued by the council officer that rang me for today I wont mention his name.

We'll call him X for the exercise.

Last Tuesday, 24 April at 8.39am X from Brisbane City Council Assets Management rang from number 384071589 and left a message for me to call him back via the call centre 34038888 which I did within the hour. Left a message.

Friday 27 April 11.50am I rang the number that came up in my phone 384071589 and left another message, with a lady, mentioned this was 2nd call back for X.

Tuesday 1 May around 10am I rang 34038888 the main call centre. Now that it has been a week I asked the guy who took the call what the council policy was on call backs ... like another company I worked in it was a 2 hour policy. I also mentioned it was the 3rd call back for this X and 1 week had passed.

11.51am X rang me. X said his call back delays were due to fighting fires (I didn't call the fire dept but the council though). X said the trees were part of council assets and the arborists were happy with the work they'd done.

I mentioned that details were posted on a public forum and no professional arborists were happy with the tree for the location and lack of signage or public awareness.

I stated the tree defied our knowledge and training of suitable habitat management and information was available on this site.

X proceeded to tell me that Brisbane City Council owned the trees and as such could do whatever they liked to them, that they weren't bound by laws, they had total autonomy and the information on this site is SHIT.

I mentioned the information on this site came from many sources including respected universities and colleges as well as professional educated arborists. X said they got their own people and information and could do as they please and that there were just as many people saying they were happy with the tree.

I asked why he was talking to me and not an arborist in the decision making process and if they were so clever and knowledgable why wouldn't they wish to share their grandeur on a forum where this was all documented. X responded that they don't talk in public forums.

I said on any given topics there'll be those for and against, and we wanted to see the reasoning behind their decisions. To that X said they dont have to explain anything to anyone, they own the trees and that's that. To which I responded that they are accountable to the community and Stalin style suppressive govt is history, we are an educated society looking for reasoning.

By now he was huffing and puffing, scoffing and carrying on like a child. I told him I would be putting the details of the conversation on the public forum along with his name and position to which he responded ...
...

Quote:

You mention my name on that forum and I'll fuggen sue you, you fuggen asshole

then abruptly hung up.

11.56am I rang 34038888 and reported the phone call and the threat and the language of X.

X was representing a govt body, can he sue? Can council sue? The BCC call centre records it's phone calls, that's right. The inbound calls from ordinary people, I wonder if they recorded the call between X and I, I sure wish I did. I bet they don't record the outbound calls of their people.

So there we have it, you make your own mind up. It aint over yet, but this isn't a surprise to me.

a_lopa · 1st May 2007, 12:57 AM

Information on this sites shit?I doubt it this guy needs a good foot up the behind for his unwillingness to front the issue and slandering a forum made to provide up-to-date information on tree related issues.

I hope mr "X" thinks thru his actions more clearly,can i please have his name forwarded so i can personally adress this matter.

Ekka · 1st May 2007, 01:48 AM

Sure, check your PM's.

Lopa, next time a trees protected just tell the council ... It's Mr Smiths land, he owns the tree and what he does to it is his business and none of the governments, he can do whatever he likes. I wonder how they like that?

Also, I knew this would be about the caliber of treatment from previous dealings. Do you remember this story, well, they didn't respond in any reasonable fashion to that either.

http://www.????????????.com/showthread.php?t=36524

Sean Freeman · 1st May 2007, 02:55 AM

Ok I've been giving this quite a lot of thought (something mr X should have done too BTW) seems to me after rereading the original posts the only offensive language prior to Ekka's phone encounter came from me, describing the standard of work.

So let me clarify a few things for any BCC employees, officers etc.. who may be reading this. I have worked indirectly for BCC through another contractor, so cannot speak with personal certainty of their policies and procedures in such situations as we have here. However I have worked directly with Gold Coast CC, Townsville CC, Thuringowa CC, Charters Towers CC, Hinchinbrook, Flinders and Cardwell Shire Councils. In each and every case these councils have very clearly defined procedures relating to the manner in which inquiries and complaints are dealt with....none of these protocols include the verbal abuse and threatening of members of the public (well not that I'm aware of). It seems to me based on the information provided by Ekka that mr X response betrays either a complete lack of understanding of what the issue is here, or an inability to communicate with others without resorting to base insults. Either way he seems to be an completely innapropriate person to represent BCC in this instance.

All councils have to deal with hundreds of questions and queries about actions they take in the public spaces they are responsible for, and that is how it should be.....something to with accountability I think. We have raised a whole range of relevant and pertinent questions regarding this tree and the works undertaken on it. The passion with which we feel about these issues reflects our commitment to the environmental values that underpin all the work we undertake ourselves day to day.
BCC have written commitments to the very same environmental values throughout their urban planning, vegetation management and protection documents.
Mr X seems decidedly ill prepared in that he was not able to provide Ekka with a generic explaination of the action relating to the tallow wood that began this thread. (Not that such an explaination would have been satisfactory, but it would have been something!)

It is quite possible that someone in council or contracted to council has decided that this tree could be "turned into habitat", but we have previously listed numerous problems relating to both the initial criteria of assessment and the techniques applied in this case, in addition to the importance of informing the public what is happening to this tree and why. Raising the level of public awareness of the councils commitment to enhancing the local environmental values would seem like simple common sense...maybe not all that common?

It is very dissapointing that an officer of the council of our State's capital city can't engage with a rate payer without resorting to such pointless name calling. Maybe he was having the worst day of his life, I don't know, all that has been achieved by his verbal actions is to create the impression that in the case of this tree there has been a failure to apply proper environmental management standards.

I hope that some council officers will read this thread and that they feel they can contribute even if it is by contacting Ekka as the Administrator, and he can relay their opinions/responses to allow them to remain anonimous. Thus far the actions and words of the council representatives we have encountered have done nothing to make any of us feel confident about either the motives or the outcomes regarding this tree.

a_lopa · 1st May 2007, 03:27 AM

Agreed Boa,Especially when the rate payer is a level 5 arborist just trying to help him out! shame on the BCC

6th March 2007, 12:07 AM	#27 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 670	Hey ekka, that last post kinda beat me to it. When i saw the 1st pics i were SHOCKED. To butcher trees like that in situations where they are made a public example is ridiculous. The public see this being done by the very council that governs them so of course they think they should do the same. Its an ongoing battle to change the ideas in many laymans head on how to treat trees when it has been done this way for generations prior. Now that science has taught us how to treat trees with respect to their natural systems, we arborists are doing our best to turn things around and are set back 20 years by things like this. I know of some "habitat" trees down here. A few in a golf course that has some very rare fauna for the suburbs. And also of some on council land in a heritage protected street ( National Trust & local council). This pocket is tightly protected, NO tree can be TOUCHED at all without a full Arborist Report done and approved prior. And they will rarely allow more than deadwooding. (This is where we did a Sequoia last week) Anyway the "habitat" trees are usually cut back way harder than the one youve showed, leaving large diameter wood and short stubs only. This lessons the chance of falling parts as it breaks down and its structure disintergrates. And the main thing is, it is really only suitable to 'habitat' a tree where significant fauna exist, and a low target rating is likely. This looks like a busy suburban intersection. Not really appropriate place to keep a tree like this. I believe this tree should now be removed. If there really is significant fauna in the area, and it is desired to retain it, then this council should send a crew back to further reduce it so safer, rope the area off to the public and put up signage explaining why this has been done and why you should not do it to your own tree. __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

27th March 2007, 08:42 PM	#31 (permalink)
rangitata Cruisin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 61	RE: The specimen tree I have just had a discussion with an recently ex-council worker about this tree. The councils own tree crews did the work (very loose use of the word "work") It has stirred things up internally apparently, with much discussion amongst council tree staff. Good luck on your latest crusade Ekka if the squeaky wheel gets the oil the Exon Valdez is on its way to your place

27th March 2007, 10:24 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,659	I bet it's Riding road Balmoral, at least I can understand why when they are under power lines. I have had council prune some for clients along that road ... as you know the new practice is "VEEing" them out for the wires above but many are multi-stemmed as you know ... very hard to know if you have a good fork or not with that species and you get bust outs. The long branches grow at 45degree angle over the front fences of places, ready to bust out so we had them trimmed off and back. My suspicions on many were that maybe 15 year ago they were topped off at 3m high. It is ugly for sure, I think it would be wise to commence a replanting scheme and start getting rid of them. Guys, mind you with all the BS I see remember BCC reckons it wants a L5 to write arb reports yet from what I see of the trees worked on you may as well be a welder or mechanic coz aint much making sense. You want more pics of dead habitat trees right along side roads ... I'll get them, here's a few locations. Dead tree adjacent to car park and car park entrance, no signage, also hatracked, Murarrie Recreation Ground Murarrie off Wynnum road. Dead tree, footpath & side of road, Tilley road Gumdale just south of New Cleveland road. Also, why were most trees in New Farm Park over mulched up the trunks for a number of years? Pseudo mulch volcanoes, recently they have been inspected and the mulch pulled away but that's almost 2 years later and it was because the trees were being assessed by Adam Tom just recently. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

29th March 2007, 12:35 AM	#35 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,659	Yeah get some pics, I don't go up that way much ... since the tip doubled it's price on dumping! They talk about anti-competitive behaviour so Redland shire pretty much matched BCC on tips rates, that's collusion. Any chance you can dig up their tree protection order scheme and post that in our section? Maybe we can get them to fine themselves like some of the USA counties have. When a county makes a breach of it's own VPO regs it is fined and the fine amount of money goes to the neighbouring counties. True story. Makes the counties keep an eye out eh. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st May 2007, 12:57 AM	#37 (permalink)
a_lopa Astronaut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 836	Information on this sites shit?I doubt it this guy needs a good foot up the behind for his unwillingness to front the issue and slandering a forum made to provide up-to-date information on tree related issues. I hope mr "X" thinks thru his actions more clearly,can i please have his name forwarded so i can personally adress this matter. __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals Last edited by a_lopa : 1st May 2007 at 02:30 AM.

6th March 2007, 12:34 AM	#28 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	You both make very good points,and it will be interesting to see if BCC reply with more than a short curtious email. The provision of habitat for native fauna in urban areas is very important, but as many of us have noted this tree does not seem to fit the criteria. It maybe that BCC did have someone qualified report on the tree, and possible that someone with a level 4 or above CALM did decide to turn this tree into habitat...possible...but not likely. It should be the case that BCC have undertaken a documented risk assessment of the tree before and after the "work" was completed. If not their procedures are well and truely lacking, and worse they leave themselves open to liability should anything happen as a result of the work. If I put on my cutting crew hat, I think it is possible the job was not done according to the specs originally thought through by whomever decided to make it a habitat tree, either because they didn't convey any specs at all or the specs were vague and beyond the crew. Whatever the real course of events its most unlikely that anyone outside BCC will ever know them. What we're left with is a tree that looks unlike any habitat tree I've ever seen, looks like a lop job, and is a lop job. The smaller diameter branches will fail over time causing at the very least maintenance issues if not worse. The larger branches are likely to stay up there for a long while yet.....unless of course the tree is colonised by agressive funal pathogens (if its not already...what killed it) Bottom line for me is given the time I spend writing reports, management plans and tree work specifications for all sorts of clients including many LGA's this example of "work" is not good enough, it falls well short of any acceptable benchmarks for arboricultural practices in any area, let alone a public one. SF

27th March 2007, 09:09 PM	#32 (permalink)
justoon Cruisin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 63	Ekka,I was just in Balmoral on Monday and noticed the fine pruning of the paperbarks under the powerlines.Cant remember the name of the street but it was oppisite the AFL club ground. Every one of them looked like rabbits funny but sad yet funny

28th March 2007, 08:39 PM	#34 (permalink)
rangitata Cruisin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 61	Its not limited to the BCC. If you want to see a sight of absolute carnage a quick trip through the side streets on the Redcliffe Peninsula. Throughout this whole area the Power companies and locol gov have created streetscapes that are "crimes against nature". Every time i drive through i leave shaking my head in horror. Will take some photos if time allows next time i am in the area.

1st May 2007, 01:48 AM	#38 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,659	Sure, check your PM's. Lopa, next time a trees protected just tell the council ... It's Mr Smiths land, he owns the tree and what he does to it is his business and none of the governments, he can do whatever he likes. I wonder how they like that? Also, I knew this would be about the caliber of treatment from previous dealings. Do you remember this story, well, they didn't respond in any reasonable fashion to that either. http://www.????????????.com/showthread.php?t=36524 __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st May 2007, 02:55 AM	#39 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,521	Ok I've been giving this quite a lot of thought (something mr X should have done too BTW) seems to me after rereading the original posts the only offensive language prior to Ekka's phone encounter came from me, describing the standard of work. So let me clarify a few things for any BCC employees, officers etc.. who may be reading this. I have worked indirectly for BCC through another contractor, so cannot speak with personal certainty of their policies and procedures in such situations as we have here. However I have worked directly with Gold Coast CC, Townsville CC, Thuringowa CC, Charters Towers CC, Hinchinbrook, Flinders and Cardwell Shire Councils. In each and every case these councils have very clearly defined procedures relating to the manner in which inquiries and complaints are dealt with....none of these protocols include the verbal abuse and threatening of members of the public (well not that I'm aware of). It seems to me based on the information provided by Ekka that mr X response betrays either a complete lack of understanding of what the issue is here, or an inability to communicate with others without resorting to base insults. Either way he seems to be an completely innapropriate person to represent BCC in this instance. All councils have to deal with hundreds of questions and queries about actions they take in the public spaces they are responsible for, and that is how it should be.....something to with accountability I think. We have raised a whole range of relevant and pertinent questions regarding this tree and the works undertaken on it. The passion with which we feel about these issues reflects our commitment to the environmental values that underpin all the work we undertake ourselves day to day. BCC have written commitments to the very same environmental values throughout their urban planning, vegetation management and protection documents. Mr X seems decidedly ill prepared in that he was not able to provide Ekka with a generic explaination of the action relating to the tallow wood that began this thread. (Not that such an explaination would have been satisfactory, but it would have been something!) It is quite possible that someone in council or contracted to council has decided that this tree could be "turned into habitat", but we have previously listed numerous problems relating to both the initial criteria of assessment and the techniques applied in this case, in addition to the importance of informing the public what is happening to this tree and why. Raising the level of public awareness of the councils commitment to enhancing the local environmental values would seem like simple common sense...maybe not all that common? It is very dissapointing that an officer of the council of our State's capital city can't engage with a rate payer without resorting to such pointless name calling. Maybe he was having the worst day of his life, I don't know, all that has been achieved by his verbal actions is to create the impression that in the case of this tree there has been a failure to apply proper environmental management standards. I hope that some council officers will read this thread and that they feel they can contribute even if it is by contacting Ekka as the Administrator, and he can relay their opinions/responses to allow them to remain anonimous. Thus far the actions and words of the council representatives we have encountered have done nothing to make any of us feel confident about either the motives or the outcomes regarding this tree. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

1st May 2007, 03:27 AM	#40 (permalink)
a_lopa Astronaut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 836	Agreed Boa,Especially when the rate payer is a level 5 arborist just trying to help him out! shame on the BCC __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals