longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers| CODIT WALL4

bigshea13

has anyone ever tried leaving smaller stubs instead of correct collar cuts on trees that are known to be poor compatmentalizers and then returning after the tree has had a chance to compartmentalize and putting the correct cut on it. it seems to me that when a tree builds up it boundary to infections it almost callises over and if you can get the portion you need a collar cut on to toughen up first maybe you can help the tree fend off infection easier. if someone has done this and checked up on it how long do you wait and how do you judge if its ready?
this would be useful when trying to structurally prune and there are two dominate leaders. when you remove the one your left with the other just off center of the tree and if it comparts. poorly you may end up losing top over the years.

newguy18

never done that but I think you might be on to something.

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old schooler

bigshea13

I Was Hoping Someone Had Feedback. Ill Just Have To Try It And Pay Attention.. The Only Prob Is That It May Take Many Months Before I Know Out Come.....maybe Years.

newguy18

i nkow but thats also how people like shigo found out proper treecare that we have today though years of t and e.

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old schooler

azrael

I dont tree-work as such, but this is certainly the recommended pruning method for our native Fig Trees (Moreton Bay Fig, Port Jackson Fig, Small-Leaf Fig, and Deciduous Fig), which are as you suggest ... poor compartmentalisers...and that is the pruning prescription I would give.
I'll try to get some photos over the weekend.

Sean Freeman

It can be a tricky one this since many of us have spent very long periods lambsting those that leave 'permenant' long stubs as loppers, this practice of trying to stage the reduction/removal of a particular limb can often be used as evidence of our 'double standards', sure based on a lack of understanding the actual work and from those not owning the tree, with whom we have discussed this process at length....but it can still cause problems for you through deliberate misrepresentation of what you're trying to achieve.

Yes Stephen has done it in the past and yes we have encountered the very problems I refer to...do I think it was worth it...yes, and when reducing/removing very large limbs on older trees if the time frame permits then I would advise the same practice again. Our mini trial was with an Albizia saman, limb >600mm reduced four times over 18 months.

bigshea13

Why 4 Times? How Much Each Time? How Long Between? What Were The Results?

Eric Frei

The problem is the re-visits, how to control that?

What if the client moves? What if they get another person etc?

This thread goes for a while, with some points about exactly this topic. Have a read.

Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant

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Sean Freeman

The tree was in a school yard so client wasn't going anywhere...4 times because thats the way it worked out, first two cuts were to natural unions further in along the limb, last two were judged by me to be the best compromise location relative to the length of the limb left hanging out there, timing was really driven by the school yearly timetable (always when school hols on) and by the status of the epicormics, cut more off after the epi8cormics that were produced had clearly failed.
Results....well to be honest no different visibly than if we had removed the entire limb in one since there was no control to judge it against...mind you the final cut had not shot epicormics the last time I saw it.

I think if you have a very big limb that has to be reduced/removed and you have the ability to gradually reduce it rather than remove it intirely in one go then I would favour staged reductions...do I have scientific evidence to support my feeling...no.

bigshea13

do you think its possible to drill and fill? for the purpose of observationand to decide if the copart. process has advanced enough to finalize cut.[MAYBE WITH EXTREMELY SMAL DIAMETER DRILL. OR MAYBE SOMETHING YOU CAN TRY PENETRATING FACE OF CUT WITH LIKE AN AIR PUNCH . THEN MAYBE YOU COULD COMPARE TISSUE COMPACTION SAMPLES FROM NEW CUT TO OLD CUTS TO DETERMINE WHEN ITS READY TO CUT AGAIN.

arborcraft

Interesting question, and interesting comments from Sean.
Hey, Azrael, I wouldn't have regarded Figs as poor compartmentalisers?

azrael

Fig Tree pruning photos as promised...There are two sets .This first post will be for a young Port Jackson Fig Tree, where very minor pruning has been done...there is no wound over ~6cm...compare leaf size for scale.
Standard cuts seem to be appropriate for young vigorous trees....and wounds appear clean (pruning about 3yo).

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newguy18

i understand what your saying about the one trip equals one big wound that the tree has to heal at one time but because the foliage is what feeds the tree unless a callus actually did develop then how could a stage removal of a large limb be of any benefit?I'm not criticizing I'm just asking.

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old schooler

azrael

Second set of images : Old, remnant trees, ...pruning date unknown...but this subdivision is ~11 years old and these were previously unkempt paddock trees.
Standard pruning cuts ...... make up your own mind how well the wounds have compartmentalised, and how effective pruning has been at removing decayed tissue.
I haven't been past the (different) Fig Tree with longer stubs to get that photo yet.

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newguy18

they all apear to be doing well but the last one was it left long on purpose?

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old schooler

arborcraft

Azrael, thanks for 2 great sets of Photos.
I think that Figs just appear to be poor at compartmentalising.
Apart from the last photo #18, I think the wood would be sound not far inside
the superficially decayed edge.
I think Figs are good at compartmentalisation.

In Centennial Park, 25 years ago when I was very keen and green, I started cleaning up some aged poor pruning cuts back to the branch collars on the Figs (mainly Moreton Bays and Port Jacksons). Invariably, I found the wood to be sound not far inside what looked like a decayed stub. So I stopped trying to clean those wounds up. I just left them alone. Of course any new pruning was done to the branch collars.

When bush walking amongst Figs you rarely come across failures from decay.

As contractors, you rarely find failures from decay in all the Figs in gardens, parks and golf courses around Sydney.

On a slightly different topic, Figs also hang on to epicormic growth exceptionally well over the years (compared say to Eucalypts). From storms or from unfortunate past topping practices.

Eric Frei

Figs are hopeless at growing wall 4, the callus or closure component. They'll sacrifice (like most trees) closure over apical growth, they're greedy buggers full of latex which in itself may compensate for wall 4 and make them quite reasonable defenders and compartmentalisers.

Newguy18, did you notice in any of those pics a good callus growth ring? No, they're all hopeless. Closure is an important part of compartmentalisation but those trees weren't fussed maybe because they dont have to be.

Up here in Qld they do a bit better than those pics but still nothing like say a leopard tree or euc even.

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azrael

Thanks Ekka...now Ive been able to delete a whole lot from this post....which took me about 1 hour to write. Anyway...this is what's left.......

My preference is not to touch Fig Trees at all (pruning wise)...but sometimes you just have to to make them safer....or effect repair....

Increasing pressure for new housing subdivisions, and the economics for land-owners hanging on to peri-urban dairying land vs selling off it for development has brought a lot of native Fig Trees right into the urban environment...which like trees in the second post were formerly "trees in a paddock". Sometimes they need work to remove hazardous deadwood...but sometimes decay is quite advanced too. The second group were pretty good all round for the extent of decay....following recent rains these specs have perked-up quite a lot.

Luckily most LGA's down here value the Fig Trees as much as I do (I ou local Fig Trees) and will accept them in Reserve areas dedicated over to them. (Shoalhaven does NOT...any more).

However, it usually eventuates these reserves are not purely for accommodating the Fig Trees...they also become the local park for play equipment and a general kid magnet (and in one case I can cite...the beginning of the end for the particular tree...it had a small trunk hollow...in which a fire was lit...and that was that for the tree).

In fact, that tree....well, it stood in the location of the first pic of the first post and in front of those trees you see there.....they are actually satellites from the parent Fig...the corrupt tree was removed a few years ago...but at least the genetic stock lives on.

The Fig Trees (pics below) are my most recent report subjects (early Dec 07).....scenario of residential subdivision..... three Fig Trees...with a Council that doesnt want to take them in Reserve....and a farmlet subdivision (to max. # of Lots possible). The best outcome is to see the best one retained and respected, but as everyone knows they have pretty big spatial demands...and even if a building envelope is clear, there really has to be a covenant on the land to protect the tree from later developments..like swimming pools or sheds or other structures....Will that happen? ..probably not...I suspect all three will go....even though I have provided all options to enable the BEST tree to be retained under the optimal conditions. This is more important to me than agonising over pruning cuts.

P3 & P4 (Port Jackson Fig) are of the same tree, P6-Decid Fig has all the west-side (unseen far side) blown out, and P8 (obliqa) has long trunk tear from branch loss (branch on ground).

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arborcraft

Sorry Ekka, Trees (even Figs) do not grow Wall 4.
Wall 4 is just inside the diameter of the tree at the time of that one wound.
Wall 4 is inside the vascular cambium, it has to be, however else could the tree continue to grow?

Wall 4 is poorly understood by us all. Opinions have changed a lot over the last 20 years.
Wall 4 has nothing to do with the callus or closure component.

More tomorrow....

It will take a bit of thinking to know how to respond to
...."they're greedy buggers full of latex which in itself may compensate for wall 4 and make them quite reasonable defenders and compartmentalisers."

This is half right and half wrong and I don't know that I'll ever know where to start....

newguy18

Your figs get bigger then ours.I havent seen one get much bigger than 6'.I also believe that they have to be planted here in north florida.

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Eric Frei

How I understand the 4 walls of codit.

Wall1: Vascular system shut down to prevent verticle infection.

Wall2: Heartwood prevents inward progression.

Wall3: Rays prevent radial progression.

Wall4: Cambium or callus grows over wound sealing it.

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mdvaden

I've considered the concept for several trees that may be poor at compartmentalizing or not.

Typically, if I leave a longer stub, it's because I was a bit uncertain about where a collar should be, or where a cut should be. So sometimes when I know I'll be back in a year or two 100%, I may leave an extra inch - then remove a bit more later.

But even is a plant is a bad compartmentalizer, I'd have to be making some big cuts or a lot of them to apply this principle for this reason.

If its just a few cuts, even if it doesn't compartmentalize well, it does not mean that the tree is poor at callousing-over the wound.

And what happens when the wound shuts entirely?

arborcraft

Hi Ekka, Your description is right for Walls 1, 2 and 3.
but Wall 4 is not right
"Wall4: Cambium or callus grows over wound sealing it".

Wall 4 is called the barrier zone, which separates all new tissues from tissues present at the time of wounding. It is located just inside the Vascular Cambium. Unlike Walls 1, 2 and 3 which are set up quickly, wall 4 is set up in the next growth period (that is, the end of dormancy for deciduous trees or when it rains in drought times for Eucalypts). It is chemically very strong but physically weak. All the walls form an insurance policy, even if fungal decay does not enter from that one wound.

Your reference to the rate of callus growth over the wound, sealing it, is critical. The faster wound closure the better. So generally if pruning is needed, then it is best done to a young tree (as always in horticulture, there are exceptions).
If a tree is young and actively growing, the tree grows rapidly in girth and more of the rays (Wall 3) are active.

So even if over the years fungal decay did enter the wound site before the callus had sealed it off, and even if Walls 1, 2 and 3 did fail, the growth in girth over the years would mean the hollow was irrelevant.

The tree would hollow out to wall 4, which would be the diameter of the tree at the time of wounding.
The Vascular Cambium meanwhile like a moveable feast would be out at the new edge of the wood.


So I think that what you and Azrael meant was that the Fig trees in the photos showed poor callus growth (small increments of girth growth).
Was that what you meant?

I regard Figs as being good at compartmentalisation.
I regard Populus nigra 'Italica' as being a poor compartmentaliser.

The rate of callus growth has a lot to do with the success or failure of compartmentalisation of any one wound. There's a triangle between the tree, the fungus and the environment. Sometimes one factor is favoured, sometimes another, times change.

It's a race, a marathon, the swordfight on the bridge, or a Bollywood musical!

More on resin and latex and their connection with Wall 4 another time.....

TrevMcRev

Wall 4 as i understand is the chemical & physical cellular reaction occuring to protct new growth eg. callus, woundwood from decay.
Not the growth of it itself.

Ahhhh.... just started typing and saw arborcrafts updated post

Saved me some keyboard work there!

Eric Frei

But you cannot have one without the other correct? So in effect the callus growth carries the barrier zone ... no callus no zone.

Also that growth is altered and stronger, 40% stronger than the normal wood the tree grows.

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arborcraft

No Ekka, I think that's wrong.
You can have one without the other. The callus growth doesn't carry the barrier zone. You can have Wall 4, the barrier zone, without the callus.

If over the years the callus growth is very slow, then the lack of callus might mean the tree eventually loses the race, but the lack of callus doesn't mean that Wall 4 wasn't set up.

The extra strength of callus is interesting, but irrelevant in this discussion.

Eric Frei

Lets get this straight, if the wound doesn't grow over then where is your wall 4? Is it some invisible membrane.

In my context wall 4 is new growth on the external side of the wound (the outside or bark side).

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Sean Freeman

I'll throw this link up since it is if read through a helpful (if dated) presentation through diagrams of what is being discussed here.....it may help others reading and trying to follow the discussion Tree Decay An Expanded concept

This presentation may also help....codit.pdf

Eric Frei

This is probably the best page for it.

The color altered wood represents chemical change from wound or injury

The pics show on real wood wall4 ... however it is not present where there is no new wood. How can it be?

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arborcraft

Reply to Posts 29 and 28.
Thanks for your diagrams and photos, Sean and Ekka. A big improvement on my words. I had forgotten just how good the watercolour illustations are.

Ekka, if you open the link in your post #29 and scroll down to near the bottom of the first piece of text, you'll find a quote by Dr Shigo.


?Do not confuse CODIT with WOUND CLOSURE. CODIT and WOUND CLOSURE are two different processes. The walls are model figures to simplify the understanding of the succession of micro-organisms. You will not see the walls?.

I think Azrael's photos of Figs should be looked at again (Post #14).

I think many arborists have seen the indicators of Wall 4s. Perhaps they didn?t recognise them.
When you are cutting up a section of tree (not a palm), there are often rings of kino (or resin or latex).
However imperfect or indistinct the rings are, they are highly likely to be indicators of previous Wall 4s, showing that the tree was wounded when it was that diameter. There might not be other indicators of compartmentalisation: - sometimes you will see a stain showing where Walls 1 and 2 were. Sometimes you might see a vaguely triangular shape showing a Wall 3.

So Ekka you were on the right track back in Post #17 when you mentioned latex.

Perhaps re-read other posts #16, #19 and #23.