longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers| CODIT WALL4

bigshea13 · 12th January 2008, 08:05 PM

shigo also states that some trees may not have 4 because they are more interested in growing and cycling and gettin it done rather than using resources on healing.{ the emergency room analogy} depends on the tree.

Ekka · 13th January 2008, 12:16 AM

Recently I did some work on a Illawarra Flame Tree.

This was a good stub left by previous person, in fact there were lots of stubs like this I fixed up.

Note that to expose the callus tissue I had to rub off the old dead ugly bark.

Notice in this example not a lot gained, and notice the angle of growing. Now if the cut would have been made to resemble that callus growth it would have been better and not left a homing beacon for borers etc.

Now ironically that callus roll and the whole angle thing going on there resembles the target cut that is prescribed here according to our standards.

Sean Freeman · 13th January 2008, 03:41 AM

Great pic!

Ekka · 13th January 2008, 03:45 AM

Oh, you'd like this angle of it too then, they're out of my phone actually as I forgot the camera.

bigshea13 · 13th January 2008, 04:44 AM

must be some phone camera.

azrael · 13th January 2008, 02:03 PM

Great pics Ekka
...and some Kurrajong Leaf-tier too I see.

Underwor · 11th February 2008, 06:03 AM

Sticking my two bits in, Wall 4 was formed when woundwood grew over the wound. It has cambium along the outer edge of the curl at the growing front, but this new growth is arrested by pressure when it contacts the surface of the wound. The ultimate strength of this wall is a total lack of physical linkages and conductivity between the new wood and the old. I don't believe it has a lot to do with phenols and all that, but I could be wrong. It is like a waterproof layer of paint over a stain on wallpaper. The old stain is still there, but covered and it can't get out, but neither could any air or additional pathogens get in, once the seal is complete.

Ekka · 11th February 2008, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwor

Wall 4 was formed when woundwood grew over the wound.

Thank you Bob.

I have yet to see, whether by microscope or divine intervention anything to the contrary.

However Arborcraft's insistence that I read and read has only committed me further to exactly what you say too. In fact I reckon I know more about this topic now than Shigo and some of the evidence out there is simply too strong to suggest a "wall4" or any sort of barrier occurs at time of wounding by existing cells in the outer location as we are showing here.

Like you though, it is wise to not play the know it all and leave room in the jug for some more water ... just prove it to me that I'm wrong, as I have exhausted all my proof that I am right.

However when some-one suggested the world was round not flat they actually had to sail right around it to prove it ... similar with earth revolving around the sun and not the other way around.

Underwor · 11th February 2008, 07:51 AM

You are right in that no Wall 4 forms at the time of wounding. The tree is not too worried about the rot in the wounded wood growing out into the air surrounding it. It is only worried about it growing into the new wood laid down afterwards. If wound closure is fairly rapid, then this new wood, besides having no living link to the wounded wood, is growing over wood which is by now dead and relatively dry and therefore does not have a whole lot of invasive ability. This may differ in the case of a rams horn growing into the dark cool damp core of a hollow tree, but that is a different scenario altogether.

D Mc · 11th February 2008, 02:38 PM

So first question is why is this very interesting discussion buried in the picture forum? We just found it. We were trying to track down my wayward professor. LOL

Actually, I really thought I understood this whole concept of CODIT fairly well. Now I'm pretty much confused again.

When I first started studying, the definition that I saw was (for Wall 4) "the new growth ring that forms after injury". Which would support Ekka's views, right? Further reading also says that this barrier zone separates tissue formed after wounding from that formed earlier. That it is chemically strong but structurally weak (hence the tendency toward ring shakes at those points). The pointers shown in pictures show the dark ring within the tree that describes the time of injury, delineating the "outward" growth on beyond the point of injury. (Not the callus growth area.)

You can see this reaction zone in the attached picture. If the injury is not too severe, this zone may be seen encompassing the entire diameter. In this case, the injury was severe compared to the size of the tree at the time.

If I am understanding this correctly, there is no callus growth covering the injury; and yet, you can see the reaction of "Wall 4" by the discoloration of that growth ring.

S Mc

Ekka · 11th February 2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Mc

So first question is why is this very interesting discussion buried in the picture forum? We just found it. We were trying to track down my wayward professor. LOL

Good point, I dunno, maybe where it was posted by the thread owner.

I moved it now.

I think you need to make some lines on that pic to point out exactly what it is you want to show us.

D Mc · 11th February 2008, 04:12 PM

Thanks for moving the post. And By the Way...this forum is great! We get a lot of information out of it. In fact this is the only forum I personally take part in. You're efforts do not go unappreciated!

Actually David told me to use pointers on the pic. I am still pretty new to the photoshop type stuff but will give it a go.

S Mc

Ekka · 11th February 2008, 04:15 PM

Run of the mill old Microsoft Paint is easiest.

Just open the picture as a file in Paint, click on the line, click the color and away you go, then hit save or save as if you dont want to over write the orginal file.

Oh, when you click on the line it comes up a column of sizes, I like the one about 3 down.

D Mc · 11th February 2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Run of the mill old Microsoft Paint is easiest.

Just open the picture as a file in Paint, click on the line, click the color and away you go, then hit save or save as if you dont want to over write the orginal file.

Oh, when you click on the line it comes up a column of sizes, I like the one about 3 down.

So anytime anyone tells me "you can't go wrong" or "it's easy" I really should just turn and run the other way. (Have I mentioned I'm blonde?)

Here is my effort. The black arrows are pointing to "Wall 4" the barrier zone created at (or just after) time of injury. The pink arrows show the connection to the "point of injury". The blue arrow just points out the size of the tree approx at time of injury.

S Mc

Underwor · 11th February 2008, 06:51 PM

As I understand it, the barrier zone is a chemical deterrent, wall 4 is the physical deterrent that forms as the new growth increments seal the wounded area from the outside. I'll check in the morning when I find the pictures I took at one of Alex's sessions in NH. I know we talked about it that day.

12th January 2008, 08:05 PM	#51 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers shigo also states that some trees may not have 4 because they are more interested in growing and cycling and gettin it done rather than using resources on healing.{ the emergency room analogy} depends on the tree.

13th January 2008, 03:41 AM	#53 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 Great pic! __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

13th January 2008, 04:44 AM	#55 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 must be some phone camera.

13th January 2008, 02:03 PM	#56 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 335	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 Great pics Ekka ...and some Kurrajong Leaf-tier too I see.

11th February 2008, 06:03 AM	#57 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 Sticking my two bits in, Wall 4 was formed when woundwood grew over the wound. It has cambium along the outer edge of the curl at the growing front, but this new growth is arrested by pressure when it contacts the surface of the wound. The ultimate strength of this wall is a total lack of physical linkages and conductivity between the new wood and the old. I don't believe it has a lot to do with phenols and all that, but I could be wrong. It is like a waterproof layer of paint over a stain on wallpaper. The old stain is still there, but covered and it can't get out, but neither could any air or additional pathogens get in, once the seal is complete. __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota

11th February 2008, 07:51 AM	#59 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 You are right in that no Wall 4 forms at the time of wounding. The tree is not too worried about the rot in the wounded wood growing out into the air surrounding it. It is only worried about it growing into the new wood laid down afterwards. If wound closure is fairly rapid, then this new wood, besides having no living link to the wounded wood, is growing over wood which is by now dead and relatively dry and therefore does not have a whole lot of invasive ability. This may differ in the case of a rams horn growing into the dark cool damp core of a hollow tree, but that is a different scenario altogether. __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota

11th February 2008, 04:12 PM	#62 (permalink)
D Mc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Montana Posts: 72	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 Thanks for moving the post. And By the Way...this forum is great! We get a lot of information out of it. In fact this is the only forum I personally take part in. You're efforts do not go unappreciated! Actually David told me to use pointers on the pic. I am still pretty new to the photoshop type stuff but will give it a go. S Mc

11th February 2008, 04:15 PM	#63 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 Run of the mill old Microsoft Paint is easiest. Just open the picture as a file in Paint, click on the line, click the color and away you go, then hit save or save as if you dont want to over write the orginal file. Oh, when you click on the line it comes up a column of sizes, I like the one about 3 down. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

11th February 2008, 06:51 PM	#65 (permalink)
Underwor Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: North Dakota Posts: 50	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 As I understand it, the barrier zone is a chemical deterrent, wall 4 is the physical deterrent that forms as the new growth increments seal the wounded area from the outside. I'll check in the morning when I find the pictures I took at one of Alex's sessions in NH. I know we talked about it that day. __________________ Bob Underwood, Associate Professor of Forestry ND School of Forestry Minot State University - Bottineau Campus Bottineau, North Dakota