longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers| CODIT WALL4

arborcraft · 7th January 2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

But you cannot have one without the other correct? So in effect the callus growth carries the barrier zone ... no callus no zone.

Also that growth is altered and stronger, 40% stronger than the normal wood the tree grows.

No Ekka, I think that's wrong.
You can have one without the other. The callus growth doesn't carry the barrier zone. You can have Wall 4, the barrier zone, without the callus.

If over the years the callus growth is very slow, then the lack of callus might mean the tree eventually loses the race, but the lack of callus doesn't mean that Wall 4 wasn't set up.

The extra strength of callus is interesting, but irrelevant in this discussion.

Ekka · 7th January 2008, 02:11 AM

Lets get this straight, if the wound doesn't grow over then where is your wall 4? Is it some invisible membrane.

In my context wall 4 is new growth on the external side of the wound (the outside or bark side).

Sean Freeman · 7th January 2008, 02:57 AM

I'll throw this link up since it is if read through a helpful (if dated) presentation through diagrams of what is being discussed here.....it may help others reading and trying to follow the discussion Tree Decay An Expanded concept

This presentation may also help....codit.pdf

Ekka · 7th January 2008, 03:28 AM

This is probably the best page for it.

The color altered wood represents chemical change from wound or injury

The pics show on real wood wall4 ... however it is not present where there is no new wood. How can it be?

arborcraft · 7th January 2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

This is probably the best page for it.

The color altered wood represents chemical change from wound or injury

The pics show on real wood wall4 ... however it is not present where there is no new wood. How can it be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Lets get this straight, if the wound doesn't grow over then where is your wall 4? Is it some invisible membrane.

In my context wall 4 is new growth on the external side of the wound (the outside or bark side).

Reply to Posts 29 and 28.
Thanks for your diagrams and photos, Sean and Ekka. A big improvement on my words. I had forgotten just how good the watercolour illustations are.

Ekka, if you open the link in your post #29 and scroll down to near the bottom of the first piece of text, you'll find a quote by Dr Shigo.

?Do not confuse CODIT with WOUND CLOSURE. CODIT and WOUND CLOSURE are two different processes. The walls are model figures to simplify the understanding of the succession of micro-organisms. You will not see the walls?.

I think Azrael's photos of Figs should be looked at again (Post #14).

I think many arborists have seen the indicators of Wall 4s. Perhaps they didn?t recognise them.
When you are cutting up a section of tree (not a palm), there are often rings of kino (or resin or latex).
However imperfect or indistinct the rings are, they are highly likely to be indicators of previous Wall 4s, showing that the tree was wounded when it was that diameter. There might not be other indicators of compartmentalisation: - sometimes you will see a stain showing where Walls 1 and 2 were. Sometimes you might see a vaguely triangular shape showing a Wall 3.

So Ekka you were on the right track back in Post #17 when you mentioned latex.

Perhaps re-read other posts #16, #19 and #23.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborcraft

Ekka, if you open the link in your post #29 and scroll down to near the bottom of the first piece of text, you'll find a quote by Dr Shigo.

?Do not confuse CODIT with WOUND CLOSURE. CODIT and WOUND CLOSURE are two different processes. The walls are model figures to simplify the understanding of the succession of micro-organisms. You will not see the walls?.

Yes I know this and haven't confused them. Codit is the compartmentalisation involving 4 walls and Closure is 1 aspect of it not the whole shebang.

Now to clear this matter up I have paint shopped the pic below and got a red arrow pointing a point where I'd like a yes or no as to the existence of wall 4.

Is there a wall 4 at that red arrow?

arborcraft · 8th January 2008, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Yes I know this and haven't confused them. Codit is the compartmentalisation involving 4 walls and Closure is 1 aspect of it not the whole shebang.

Now to clear this matter up I have paint shopped the pic below and got a red arrow pointing a point where I'd like a yes or no as to the existence of wall 4.

Is there a wall 4 at that red arrow?

No. There is not a Wall 4 at that red arrow.
I lack the ability to use photoshop, but Wall 4 starts at about the green arrow at the top of your photo and Wall 4 starts again at the bottom of the edge of the wound, near the arrow saying Wall 3.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 03:52 AM

So then I was correct in saying wall 4 is only present where there's cambium/callus/woundwood growth and you need one to have the other ... or that they both go together.

arborcraft · 8th January 2008, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

So then I was correct in saying wall 4 is only present where there's cambium/callus/woundwood growth and you need one to have the other ... or that they both go together.

No Ekka, I think that you need to re-read Shigo and your post #21 is wrong in your definition of Wall 4 and I think that you need to re-read my posts.
I have come to a bit of an impasse. I can't see what it is that you can't see...

Can anybody else help?

p.s. I thought your thanks sign was gratuitous.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 05:11 AM

From the pictures I have put up it's fairly explicit what I see.

I see no wall 4 where there is no wood.

If we're going to debunk wall 4 being callus then I need blatant evidence that a blind man can see.

Source: Decay development - Maintenance - Landscape plants - Edward F. Gilman - UF/IFAS

Quote:

Wall 4: This is the strongest boundary that retards spread of discoloration and decay in trees. This reaction zone forms from the cambium along the edge of the outer-most growth ring present at the time the tree was injured. It begins at the point where the tree was injured and it may extend all or part way around the tree. Wall 4 stays in the same position in the tree but may extend further around or up and down the trunk with time. It does not move out with the new cambium. There may be numerous wall 4s in a tree, depending on its wounding history. Wall 4 forms the edge of a hollow.

Wall 4 develops in response to many different types of injuries. It can take several years for wall 4 to reach the other side of the trunk - or it may never reach that far. Wall 4 extends above and below the injury essentially in the shape of a pipe. It may develop a few inches or many feet above and below the injury.

Source: Tree Anatomy

Quote:

Wall 4 is formed by cambium growth after an injury. It is the strongest of all the walls. Internally, it separates the wood present at the time of injury from new wood formed as the tree grows. Externally, callus tissue develops around the injury and should eventually cover it by growing over the dead wood.

Diagram:

-----------------

Now this find, IMHO, is the greatest piece on it I've read. It goes into extreme detail microscopically with pictures and all. I have attached a PDF of it also but the online pics are clearer/larger and more colourful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborcraft

No Ekka, I think that's wrong.
You can have one without the other. The callus growth doesn't carry the barrier zone. You can have Wall 4, the barrier zone, without the callus.

If over the years the callus growth is very slow, then the lack of callus might mean the tree eventually loses the race, but the lack of callus doesn't mean that Wall 4 wasn't set up.

The extra strength of callus is interesting, but irrelevant in this discussion.

It appears to me that callus is what it's all about.

Developmental Stages and Fine Structure of Surface Callus Formed after Debarking of Living Lime Trees (Tilia sp.) -- STOBBE et al. 89 (6): 773 -- Annals of Botany

arborcraft · 8th January 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborcraft

No. There is not a Wall 4 at that red arrow.
I lack the ability to use photoshop, but Wall 4 starts at about the green arrow at the top of your photo and Wall 4 starts again at the bottom of the edge of the wound, near the arrow saying Wall 3.

Whoever labelled Wall 4 in the right of your picture got it wrong, or it's a typo.
There is no Wall 4 there. Wall 4 stops and starts about where I said in Post #32.

In post #35, your quotes from the texts are spot on. I think you need to read them again, more carefully.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 12:10 PM

No, I dont need to reread anything. I've read it many times over and looked the diagrams over and over.

The debate is about wall 4 being callus (or part of it somehow) or not.

You have come out and said wall 4 is not callus and can exist without callus.

All pictures and documents say otherwise.

You too agreed where there was no callus (red arrow) there was no wall 4.

So, what is it you cannot understand. There's a document now with a lot of credibility where they analysed callus at intervals to understand what it was.

So, do you still say wall 4 is independent of callus? I did say wall 4 is part of callus and it cannot exist where there's no new growth (callus wood) ... you said that's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Figs are hopeless at growing wall 4, the callus or closure component.

Closure is an important part of compartmentalisation but those trees weren't fussed maybe because they dont have to be.

As a refresher here's my original statements and you can clearly see I dont call Closure or callus compartmentalization in it's own right but a component of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborcraft

Sorry Ekka, Trees (even Figs) do not grow Wall 4.
Wall 4 is just inside the diameter of the tree at the time of that one wound.
Wall 4 is inside the vascular cambium, it has to be, however else could the tree continue to grow?

Here is where you debunk everything I've know or read where wall 4 is grown after the event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arborcraft

Wall 4 is poorly understood by us all. Opinions have changed a lot over the last 20 years.
Wall 4 has nothing to do with the callus or closure component.

Once again in that same post of yours you say wall 4 has nothing to do with callus growth, yet you agree on pictures where there's an absence of callus there is no wall 4.

From the post you said I should reread it says this from a university. Now that slots in with everything I'm saying and agrees with the fact that where there's no growth there's no wall.

Quote:

Wall 4 is formed by cambium growth after an injury.

bigshea13 · 8th January 2008, 02:22 PM

hey guys, found this . dont know if itll help.
Dictionary MAIN PAGE Text & Grap

7th January 2008, 02:11 AM	#27 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers Lets get this straight, if the wound doesn't grow over then where is your wall 4? Is it some invisible membrane. In my context wall 4 is new growth on the external side of the wound (the outside or bark side). __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th January 2008, 02:57 AM	#28 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers I'll throw this link up since it is if read through a helpful (if dated) presentation through diagrams of what is being discussed here.....it may help others reading and trying to follow the discussion Tree Decay An Expanded concept This presentation may also help....codit.pdf __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

7th January 2008, 03:28 AM	#29 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers This is probably the best page for it. The color altered wood represents chemical change from wound or injury The pics show on real wood wall4 ... however it is not present where there is no new wood. How can it be? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 03:52 AM	#33 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers So then I was correct in saying wall 4 is only present where there's cambium/callus/woundwood growth and you need one to have the other ... or that they both go together. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 02:22 PM	#38 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers hey guys, found this . dont know if itll help. Dictionary MAIN PAGE Text & Grap