Legal issues with cabling

MTS247

I know alot of companys that wont touch cabling with a 40ft polesaw due to liability.
if i cable a tree i do a report that says the cabling requires frequent inspection and will need to be replaced in X years. also that there are X faults with the tree, and that the owner does not wish to remove the tree, and that X has been undertaken to "reduce" the risk. but this will not remove the risk blah blah.
What do others do?

treeseer

Yes, write a disclaimer, yes, work to standard.

We take on liability when we prune a tree, "admitting" those branches were removed because the tree had a problem. One city here paid out on a summer limb drop case because they had pruned the tree in the past.
. In our country it seems that anyone can be sued for anything, so there’s no use in worrying about going to court, only in losing! There’s no need to fear losing a lawsuit if you have read the standards and know your work complies. A tree “hazard” is defined as a level of tree risk greater than the owner is willing to tolerate. “Hazard trees” are managed by lessening—reducing, mitigating--the risk they pose, either by removal or by arboricultural treatments, to a level that the owner accepts.
Reducing or supporting defective branches, propping or bracing defective trunks, guying trees with defective root systems; all these and more arboricultural activities can be specified and practiced free of liability concerns, if they are ANSI-compliant, standard operating procedures.

newguy18

Or just remove it,after its down,no liability.

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old schooler

treeseer

Laugh if you want, but many hacks say that with a very straight face. If anyone can understand the cabling BMP's, they don't have to fear selling and doing the work.

newguy18

Are you saying i'm a hack?

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old schooler

scooter1962

You have a good question there. I deal with transplanting and face a similar issue - namely that we deal with variables that are hard to quantify (nature).

Unlike a builder who can say that a beam of steel or wood has been stress tested to a specific breaking point - we don't have that luxury.

We deal with unknown quantities.

I let the customer know what the risks are, and will continue to be. The trick here is to let the customer know that your knowlegable and know what your doing, while at the same time not commiting to a definite outcome in the future - " yeah luv' she'll be right for 10 years"

If you can't quantify it, don't guarantee it - provide your best professional opinion based on the facts at the time and let time do the rest.

treeseer

TreeSpecialist

Cabling, done well, can actually make a tree stronger than it was.

People afraid of cabling or bracing trees shouldn't be in the business.

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newguy18

I'm not afraid of it,just not to many people want it done around here,i've cabled one tree since i started in tree work,a 25' tall magnolia that had a codominant stem,one cable 15' up and done.1 year later the h.o decides to buy a saw and remove it.Around here if you mention defective branch unions and offer cabling,because you can't garuntee it to be 100 percent fool proof the customers says just remove it.So therefore most of my work is removals,does it make me less of a treguy?no.Do i wish i did more to preserve trees?yes.

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old schooler

MTS247

What are the ANSI rules? do they only cover materials or instalation also?

newguy18

i don't have them in front of me,but i believe they cover installation and inspection of the cables.I could be wrong though.

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old schooler

TreeSpecialist

To reiterate and re-word a recent post , anyone who doesn't have a copy of the ANSI standards and doesn't follow them shouldn't be in the tree business.

The first place a lawyer will go in a law suit is the ANSI standards.

(TCIA | ANSI A300 Standards for Tree Care Operations )

"I believe they cover installation and inspection...."

Why not admit you don't have them or have never read them?

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treevet

One may be wise to be leery of the litigiously inclined potential client (read lawyer, etc.). It costs them nothing to be in court but conversely it costs us time and possibly a lawyer. The "time" aspect is a major consideration IMO.

Amongst other things, the arb is relying on the expected quality of materials of the mfctr. When/if a cable fails (and it WILL fail some day, hopefully a backup has been installed or replacement) there will often be "throw" that can make failure more likely than if tree was never cabled, not to mention the almost certain entrance of decay causing orgs. over the years (and the additional growth of mass stressing the fault).

I put in many, many cables and have read bmp's sop's ofcourse to CMA but still choose clients with forethought prior to contracting.

Like Pat said, if you don't cable for whatever reason, you're probable just a lopper (tree garbageman).

MTS247

"To reiterate and re-word a recent post , anyone who doesn't have a copy of the ANSI standards and doesn't follow them shouldn't be in the tree business"

Treespecialist, are you suggesting that we in another country should follow your American standards.

treevet

My guess......follow relevant standards to your own country. Don't just "wing it" and hope for the best outcome.

What are your standards related to cabling? Can we see them.

treeseer

Why do you say that?


o and maybe others do not cable for a lot of reasons, like lack of experience. I don't think it's nice to call them garbagemen.

How high up should cables go?

newguy18

Piss off.I've read the z,don't own them,not really nessecary for those of us who usually do 2 kinds of work,pruning or mostly removals.

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old schooler

treevet

1. Metal fatigue. 2. If you just remove dead trees, dead branches this is "tree garbage" 3. 2/3 from crotch to top generally.

treevet

PS.....never make the same innocent mistake twice.....good try though Guy

treeseer

I thought you would get some yocks out of that one...

Sure metal will fatigue, but that is decades off so it may be intact for the life of the tree. I expect many of my cables will be.

I prune dead branches and think it's disrespectful to call them garbage. But then you know I am a sensitive Guy...

Robert, the Z is the safety standard which has everything to do with pruning and removing. The other ANSI standards are good to know if you advise people, because how can you sell cabling, lightning systems etc. if you do not know about them. The BMP's have all the info and they are only $5. I'll cover nonmember markup and shipping; pm me with your order.

treevet

Pifflle (piffel?)!!! Was told by a mfctr that useful life expectancy of galvanized cable was estimated at 7 years. I gotta know these things others don't consider.

A dead branch is inert and a castoff (garbage). If all one does is cut off and haul away a tree's castoffs (garbage) then one is a garbageman (person). Nothing disrespectful there. In fact I have no disrespect for the garbagemen that come by my house every Monday. You're oversensitive, my friend.

TreeSpecialist

MTS

The ANSI standards have been accepted in many places outside the US.

Likewise, ISA Certification and its standards have now been accepted or recognized on 6 continents. ISA Certification test questions frequently come directly from ANSI standards.

Like TreeVet suggested, come up with a better set of standards and we'll look at them.

Tree Vet

I wonder under what conditions he was talking about or perhaps he was selling an inferior product. The Brooklyn Bridge, Golden Gate Bridge, and virtually every elevator in the world use cables. I don't think they are being replaced every 7 years.

My personal experience with cable suggests that about 20 years in a tree is plenty. By that time, the tree has grown and additional cables should be installed above the old ones.

I have seen cable last for more than 50 years and I've also seen it break between 20 and 30 years. Breakage is usually associated with poor or improper installation - cabled too low, cabled with wrong size of cable, cabled without the use of thimbles, cable hardware installed at wrong angle.

The "dead end" guy wire wraps seem to have a relatively short life. I've seen dozens of them fail in less than 10 years.

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treevet

We have common grade (spliceable) and high strength (not spliceable and used with Rigguy). It is doubtful the quality of our cable is on par with the standards of applications you cite. I have seen cable degrade significantly in 15 to 20 years and that is just the outward appearance. It's tensile strength no doubt degrades even sooner.

Breakage can also be associated with an extreme weather event like the hurricane we just had. I had numerous people tell me their trees fell apart but all my cables were intact. Something to take pride in. Improperly installed cables can also be the source of failure by pulling at awkward and unfamiliar (reaction wood) angles.

It has been a long time since I got the quote on 7 years expectancy so I will try to pursue this and get back on this from some mfctrs.

I still assert that a steel tag should be required on all cables with installer's name, date and materials used. Ownership changes often and someone should be able to research origin when encountering cables of a new client.

Also I do not like the Rigguy set up. It separates the cable strands at the dead end and takes away the "unit strength" that is associated with any cable.

TreeSpecialist

Fair enough. Today, I have to special order American made hardware rather than accepting the Chinese stuff most folks have on the shelves. I always make my clients sign a "waiver" that explains that the cables should be professionally inspected yearly and that replacement and/or additional cables may be required in the future. I also get them to admit that without proper cables, the tree would have to be removed.

The only real failure I have had with cables was due to a tornado. The tree was lost but the cabled section was suspended in mid air and did not strike the car parked beneath it. Cables can only do so much.

This is especially true when people use lag screws and install them at weird angles. I've seen other companies put eye screws or j-bolts in trees at 90º angles to the cable itself. Or put lags in trees well known for poor compartmentalization resulting in the screws being pulled out.

That would be a great idea. And it should be disclosed to a buyer when a house or property changes hands. The tag should be attached to the trunk of the tree at eye level.

I don't like that system either. When I was on John Britton's sub committee for ISA when the ANSI cabling and bracing standards were being reviewed and rewritten (1997 ?), we talked a lot about hardware. John and I agreed that in most cases, even forged lag screws were inappropriate because of decay, bad angles of pull, poor compartmentalization, etc.

My personal approach to cabling is to over-engineer the system and thus far, with the exception of one tornado, it hasn't failed me yet.

The one thing I have found almost universally true about cabling is that the tree that needs cabling is always a sorry candidate for cabling. They never look like the little drawings in the text books.

We frequently combine crown reduction pruning with our cabling jobs. Like cabling, crown reduction is almost an art. Too much is detrimental, too little is next to worthless. Done well, crown reduction makes the tree stronger and increases the effectiveness of cabling.

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treevet

Very good post and I ve pulled out a few bits esp. noteworthy.

Par. 1. We were just 2 weeks ago hit by a hurricane with 80 mph plus sustained winds for approx 6 hours.
Par 2. Dead on.... over engineer!
Par 3. True and agreed but I was referring to the pull on the co dom or limb at awkward angles by incompetently installed cables and causing failure of architecture rather than the hardware failing.
Par 4. Not almost an art, but definately an art (lost art) meshed with skill, imagination, engineering principles, experience that combine to illustrate a high level arborist. Both the cabling/bracing and the pruning mentioned. All this cable loop ends, rigguy, rubber band stuff was just invented to make a difficult job easier and in no way better. Imagine those applications in our hurricane....what a joke.

treeseer

If this unit strength is taken away on the dead end, outside the support, what does that matter? It's the only static fastener I and others use and it works well for us.

re cable life, Are you familiar with the ASTM standard sor zinc coated steel cables? i read about it in ansi but have not seen it.

i proposed cabling a city tree and the pw director asked me to guarantee it. I did:

11. The workmanship and material involved in the cabling system are guaranteed to be free of substantial defects. The wirestop fasteners shall be manufactured of stainless steel to be free of corrosion. The Extra High Strength (EHS) cable resists corrosion and can last 30 years or more. The design and installation of the system is guaranteed to comply with the ANSI A300 (Part 3) -2006 Standard Practices for Supplemental Support Systems and the 2007 edition of the ISA Best Management Practices for Tree Support. The tree and the support system should be inspected every year.

Note that I did not guarantee the tree. Do you think I am crazy?

treevet

Very good ass covering lingo Guy. I am on your side protecting oneself with this disclaimer and cited commonly accepted standards.

But of course one could be sued for introducing decay causing orgs. into the tree they were trying to protect/correct that ultimately led to a failure and consequently an injury or property damage claim. An opposing arb. would have no trouble winning this one if it was indeed the cause through hard evidence.

treeseer

Perhaps; we've seen wood rot around lags, but it is hard to conceive decay rotting a through hole for a wirestop system.

The disclaimer will be in the Nov TCI; wondering if it will incite a letter from a cya zealot.