leaning black oak help

chrisw91

i have a black oak that is leaning very bad. i was told i could top the tree to shape it, and hopefully save it. is this a good time of year to do this? thanks

newguy18

DO NOT TOP THE TREE!!!!Topping is very bad to do to any tree,it severly weakens the wood that is left,plus any limbs or sprouts that grow back will be very weakly attached to the trunk and be likely to fall off in strong storms.

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spartek

What caused it to lean and what sort of shape is the root plate in?

Therrin

NO!

Tell me, if you could, how you think that topping "shapes" a tree? (for the moment we'll leave out the entire LIST of negative impacts that topping has on trees, we'll stick with the shape issue)

I'm going to show you a few pictures, tell me what you think looks more "natural" or maybe even more inviting. Here we go!















Topping doesn't provide "shape" for a tree. Nor is it an acceptable method. It is only used by "hacks" who have no proper pruning or arboricultural methods, and can get by doing things for cheap.
Other people see this and think "I want my tree to look like that too, and Mr Neighbor said that he got a really good deal too!"

This practice is very damaging to a tree, often reducing the life of the tree significantly, as well as setting the tree up for future hazards.

The only thing you should do at this point, is to contact a *certified* arborist, and get a professional's opinion of how to proceed.

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Eric Frei

LOL, the palm was funny, had a customer once request that the row of 6 palms along the front of his property weren't all the same height and I make them all level with the shortest!

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stirmantrees

crown reduction would be the only acceptable practice but this requires a certain situation to be practical. As there are limitations to the amount that can be removed, where the cuts are to be made(no stubbing please), species of tree and its ability to compartmentalize, tree vigor, and on and on and on. Trees do grow reaction wood that helps to strengthen the stem when they lean but your tree may be wind damage i do not know. got a picture? But do not top!!!
I attached a pic of a Laurel Oak that is older and sustained a large broken lean. the target under the tree was a wall and that is about it. So we decided to remove the broken lead and reduce the canopy. no stub cuts were made and the tree retained a natural canopy and appearance. definitely a pain in the but to do it right. It will be removed at a future date but for now it can live for a couple more years. That is if the hurricanes will stay away from florida.

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Garry Brockley

Nice job there stirmantrees
Chrisw91 pics would really help if you could get some .

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chrisw91

I'll try and get some pics tomorrow also not really up on the lingo of the tree world but I guess topping is a bad word in the tree world that is if you're trying to save a tree thanks for the pics I see where you're coming from. also I was told that I could tie off to some other trees that are near by but I'm afraid that I might have 3 damaged trees instead of 1. easy on me now remember that I'm not a tree guy I'm just looking for some info to steer me down the right path.

thanks

Eric Frei

I agree, on my website I have a "motto" on the pruning, it goes like this ..........

........ "pruned so well you cant tell"

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Garry Brockley

pity more people cant do this type of pruning

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chrisw91

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Garry Brockley

was there a tree to the rear of the leaner at some point?
IMO it looks like it has grown towards the light with bigger trees behind it like fringe trees grow in a forest.
I would say if you wanted to lighten the tree i would take the large branch to the front marked with a blue arrow and look at reducing back the tree to the rear slightly to encourage rear growth in the front tree, but i have to say it will never be a straight tree,
Is the area marked with a red arrow a shadow or a hole?
if its a hole you could be looking at further problems.
but thats just my opinion.
the top looks as if it was damaged or pruned in the past too!!!



hope this helps G

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Eric Frei

The tree is suffering from a well known condition called Phototropism.



Galbee, reduction of limbs is better than having a cut near the trunk, especially that low.

I'd say reduce weight by reduction pruning.

Inspect carefully the base area, look for decent buttresses and roots, look for any soil upheaval or cracks.

If you remove that tree I'd say the other will grow toward the light as well, to a degree keeping that tree there keeps the others "in check". Plus you aren't going to stump grind there without damaging other tree roots, leaving a stump means decay and likely transmission to other trees. Likely the roots of that tree are grafted to the others (if same species) so I would opt for a solid dose of reduction pruning on the lean side, and make it an annual event ... but retaining the tree.

If the other trees are same species they will share resources to compensate for high dose foliage loss of pruning.

Seriously, I'd be looking at 25% off this year, and maybe same next year. This has to be quality accurate work not some hack. Keep cuts away from the trunk or large unions. As the objective is weight reduction there will be large cuts so you have to be smart where they are placed.

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Garry Brockley

why can i never remember the names of these things when i need to so frustrating.
ekka is spot on

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Eric Frei

LOL, just like that prickly itchy paperbark you get once in a blue moon! I hate them prickly ones, and I get welts from whatever bug lives in them.

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Garry Brockley

i climbed a gravillia robusta last week and whatever was on it made my fore arms flare up with a spotty really itchy rash its lasted for 10 days god knows what was on it, bloody critters, so you pass on the prickly ones then

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Eric Frei

Some people are allergic to Silky's mate, you could be one, I'm not ... pass them over I dont mind them.

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stirmantrees

Definitely agree with this one. the proportion of branch diameter to the diameter of the trunk is very important to consider. Along with species, vigor, total percentage removed, genetic disposition (did i spell that right?) to compartmentalize, etc.
Removal of the limb galbee proposed would certainly lighten weight on one side and is not a gross error by any means just a different approach. Reduction does have its limitations though. I am not sure you can promote good health by reducing perpetually though. my understanding is that scientific inquiry is discovering that there are chemicals released in the shoot tips that have a direct correlation(did i spell that right?) to the growth and health of the roots.
what do you think ekka? i need knowledge.

Eric Frei

99.9% sure this tree will have grafted root with the neighbouring tree and could sustain pruning.

Lower branches either get shaded out and die or grow over-extended trying to out-compete the higher branches for sunlight, lower branch shedding is a common occurrence to many trees.... thing is (and I see it a lot) that reduction of lower branches then increases the probability of death or failure if the branches above have not also been reduced to allow sunlight through, all things need to be proportional.

I think the actual height of the tree isn't the issue, it's the side weight. The actual height should match the neighbouring tree and remain there so the neighbouring tree doesn't do the same thing.

There is a hormone produced by the apical bud called auxin, it suppresses lateral buds and also influences root growth.

Roots produce a hormone called cytokinin ...

So now there's a hormone deal going on between the roots and the apical buds. Top a tree and wella, reasons why things happen, however your question about roots is not so easy to answer ... it's a tough area to study on large trees however "they say" strong apical dominance means tap and striker roots, lower the apical dominance and auxin levels means more hairy root growth.

Either way I assure you the tree will try to balance itself out, the main part is when pruning to ensure leaves remain, and try not to remove the apical bud (remember we are doing side weight reduction).

Hope this helps, I'm no plant biologist but have a basic understanding of how this relationship works.

PS: they use homones a like auxin to strike cuttings.

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letigre

apart from what everyone else has said, the only other thing to add would be cabling. i mean without being there and having a good look. it seems as tho that wall surrounding the trees hasnt always been there. as a result the roots could have been severed and weakened. it being a driveway, theres bound to be compaction issues and coupled with the damage done by the wall(and raising the soil?) theres a good chance that tree is feeling gravity from that lean.

if you were my customer i would suggest a pruning program, probably the same as ekka's, and in addition to (if you wanted some real insurance), set up a dynamic cabling system with the trees behind it. cobra is a good brand ive used before. this is not invasive at all and it allows the tree to go about its business and develop reaction wood to counter for its shape but acts as a safety if it fails, catching it before it does damage.

theres a catch however, it isnt cheap. you'll need an qualified arborist, experienced in using dynamic cabling and a bi-annual check up to see that the cabling is still good.

hope ive been of some help. good luck

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stirmantrees

thanks ekka. always appreciate more knowledge and different persepctives. here is another tree that i reduced. had some cracked and/or broken braches. customer wanted it raised as well and here what it ended up as.

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Eric Frei

Pruning is really hard to do pictures with but that looks a decent job there.

Not too much off, what sort of tree is it?

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treelinx

Grevillea Robusta, 'Silky Oaks' are a species of tree that produces some terrible allergic reactions in people. I would come up in blisters around the neck and crotch and a rash all over and it would last for about ten days. Unfortunately, it would manifest itself about three or four days after, and only climbing them occasionally it took a long time to figure it out. I remember the first 'no sleep' anti-histamines, they saved me. Now I carry 'Telfast' 180's with me always and even if I look like climbing a 'silky' I start taking them the day before and probably for a week after I've finished the job.
I only mention this because there are few people that I have spoken to over the years that have complained about something biting them (no joke) when in fact they have an allergic reaction to some plant or it's fluids.

Garry Brockley

i have allercalm in my bag at all times but it makes me tired, i will try your tip see if it works.

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aprentree

im an apprentice learning tree surgery and i always got told if the tree lookshealthy and the root plate isnt being pulled out of the ground it'll be fine. Im not entierly sure if thats true but by the looks of the photo's it dosent look like anything is wrong id personnally reduce the tips in to get rid of some of the weight.

Correct me anybody if im wrong

gsward

I didnt know if we should start a new thread to talk about auxins, or just add to an existing thread where auxins are mentioned?

Is there anyone who has knowledge , and/or success or unsuccess using natural or synthetic auxins for trees?

From the little bit of research I have been able to read auxins if used must be done at a very precise dose. If too much can have toxic effects.

What auxin source, and dose have you used? How is it best used, foliar, soil drench, wound dressing, inject,...?

I've always felt let the tree regulate its own hormones through pruning. So when should, or if it should, adding natural or syntheitc hormones be used?

Trees are a lot like women. Know what I mean?

J.T.

have a look at this it details some nasty cases of Allergic reactions and phytodermatitis caused by silky oak contact.

http://www.derraik.org/Publications/...-Grevillea.pdf