I've stirred up trouble at ANSI A300

jomoco

I've been cabling and bracing trees now over 30 years.

Assuming that pro cablers know that use of J lags in softwood trees to anchor their cables with was a no no is my mistake.

Apparently use of J lags for cabling in softwood trees falls within the newest ANSI A300 standards for cabling and bracing.

By far the most common cabling failures I've seen in my career are J lags pulling out of softwood trees like ficus and pines. I've seen literally hundreds of such failures here locally in SoCal.

There are ANSI committee members actually defending the use of J lags in softwood trees for anchoring cables despite an abysmal and obvious failure rate.

I'm interested in how my colleagues down under feel about such dangerous practices being endorsed by ANSI here in the US?

Pro or con, I'd appreciate your guys input on the matter.

Thanks, jomoco

Eric Frei

Firstly it might need a lot of evidence, so a stack of pictures would be the start.

I would say their initial defence would be incorrect sizing of the J-lags, poor alignment, and poor maintenance perhaps allowing a loose cable to whip lash the bolt out.

Other factors could be stem size and the difficulty in drilling through large branches, type of thread etc.

For this fight you'll need evidence although what you are saying has logic.

Lets look at parallel industries. In engineering when is a self tapper screw replaced for through bolts? What is more likely to be pulled out of cement or cinder block walls, self tappers or through bolting. I'm sure engineeers would have research as they're factual where as IMO arborists are more emotional.

Perhaps breakage tests need to be conducted so some real figures come out, after all this is a standard it should be support by data and fact not opinions and BS.

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jomoco

Excellent advice mate!

The whole thing is ridiculous in my opinion, common sense is sorely lacking at ANSI if they tr to defend use of lags in softwood trees.

And they know it in their guts, each of the committee members must know this if they have true hands on experience in the field of cabling and bracing.

A realtime pull test in a nice healthy California Pepper tree should prove my point very convincingly indeed!

Thanks Ekka!

jomoco

newguy18

I personally wouldn't use j-lags on a stem over 6" diameter and on very small trees,its kinda obvious that a through bolt has more hold than a j-lag.

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old schooler

treevet

I have been using lags for 40 years and never had one pull out. Sometimes I use the eyes and sometimes I go 1/8" smaller hole than the hardware instead of the usual 1/16". Lot of it has to do with experience and common sense and that is hard to legislate in a pamphlet.

I put in an average of 70 or 80 cables a year and take that out to 40 years I have installed approx. 3,000 cables.

PS...You gotta make sure the lag is burried up to the end and showing no thread. In order to do this without giving up, you have to clean out the drill hole real good. You have to keep going in and out pulling frass out with the bit. This is a lot easier than when we did not have gas drills to use needless to say.

jomoco

Have you used lags in softwood trees Treevet?

Do you have any pics of successful lags in a softwood?

Thanks,

jomoco

pawjordan

I believe the ISA is constantly revising the ansi standards.
Maybe you can start a dialogue with them including your pictures and personal experiances.
Paul

Eric Frei

What about those cottonwoods (poplars) they're soft.

When these bolts came out on the market for the masonary job they do I was skeptical.

Worldwide Excalibur Screwbolts

Now I insist that's all I use.

Easy to insert, none of those Dyna bolt things or those other loxin things that end up not biting and pulling out the hole etc....

So I wonder, like these engineering applications what thread profiles and methods the tree industry has come up with, is the current thread pattern best suited to all trees or is there better options?

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jomoco

In my experience cabling and bracing the answer to all these lags dangling on cables is very commonly known as a throughbolt with a nut and fat washers, been working great for a hundred years now.

The problem is simple, the answer glaringly obvious, and ANSI's standards are in effect giving cover to a dangerous form of cabling directly responsible for the vast majority of cabling failures in the field.

All they need to do is prohibit the use of lag cable terminations in softwood trees.

It aint rocket science so much as common sense.

jomoco

kieren

I have never done any cabling and have very little knowledge on the subject. Can anyone forward me some info on how to do it and what materials are used.

treevet

I disagree with this post. The majority of static cabling systems historically have been with lag threaded bolts. I learned to cable with Bartlett in 1969 with lag bolts. That is the most common system I encounter and most of them are there for the life of the tree. As I said earlier that IMO installer incompetence is the main reason for failure. The ANSI must agree.

Again, go 1/16 smaller than usual on softwood and do the job right. Eye bolts are good for higher stress situations.

Save the tree another wound open to infection.

treevet

ISA and ANSI are 2 different businesses.

I tried to contact the chair of the ANSI cabling committee 6 months ago. I had met him at a seminar years ago and now he is a big shot in TCI. Robert Rouse. No reply. Must be too busy out signing autographs.

jomoco

Hi Kieren,

This old 1980 guideline by Shigo & Bob Felix is a decent starting place to learn more about cabling & bracing.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp...ID=1622&Type=2

Remember that J lags are only appropriate for cabling hardwood trees with sound healthy wood to anchor the lags in.

I myself don't use lags anymore to cable any trees with.

Good luck,

jomoco

treevet

I also prob. wouldn't want to be running any eyebolts thru unsound wood either.

Decay never sleeps.

jomoco

With all due respect Treevet, your assertion that lag usage to cable softwood trees is the problem.

And it's not just a SoCal problem, I've conversed with climbers throughout the US who've witnessed the same thing I have, J lags dangling from cables that have failed, hundreds of them. Not snapped or pulled through eyebolts, but lags, failed lags in softwood trees.

Now you've stated that lags in softwood trees are fine, I disagree in a real big way, and have pics like this to prove it.



That lag came from a healthy old historic Moreton Bay fig, every lagged cable in it failed, every throughbolt in it held.

Now if you have pics of successful lags in softwood trees that have held up long enough to be engulfed by new wood, I'd love to see them.

It's not our imaginations Treevet, it's a real problem that can be mitigated by ANSI writing clear authoritative standards that don't make the J lag failure problem even worse.

jomoco

treevet

That looks like an overall improper installation. Looks like no thimble installed within the stranded splice. Never seen eye lags such as that. Maybe it was deadended in decay, looks real old as the cable is rusted/degalvanized.

Showing you picts. of a bolt sticking out of a limb (or a failed one as above) such as you always do tells very little of the story.

I see this as an exaggeration. I encounter cables almost on a daily basis and speak to arbs from all over and no one is so anti lag as you are Jomoco. I know you want to be a standard setter with your fabricated alignment device, etc., but I have seen things in picts of your installations I do not agree with as well. 2 cables on one bolt as I have seen you do in your picts. is improper practice and in violation of ANSI standards. I think leaving a huge section of the eyebolt shaft exposed as you do when you tension your cables by torqueing the nuts is also not kosher.

Have you tried this subject on Treehouse where you post now? You have a huge thread on AS where a great number of posters have no idea for the most part what the heck a cable installation is. Seems when there is a thread there is ....you.....and .....me....and maybe just a couple of other guys like Treemachine, etc. that even have a clue about cabling in extreme environments.

kieren

Thanks jomoco will take a look

TrevMcRev

Lags are almost unheard of for Cabling in Australia. In the last 10-15 years most cabling has been done with non-invasive systems, eg. Cobra or Yale.
Steel systems still have their place where something more heavy duty is required. The use of steel that i'm aware of has always been of through bolts.
Generally, threaded rod with an eye nut, a thimble and wire crimps to secure the cable. On the back side, using a washer, nut, then another washer followed by another nut to give further strength once woundwood develops into it.

Funny thing, i havent put a steel cable in for 10 years, (done some Rod Bracing though) but just yesterday i did a consult on a Golden Elm that I recommended steel cabling!