Ignore it then claim insurance!

Eric Frei · 1st August 2009, 08:44 AM

Where does it say she was aware of the hazard? That from the information provided is a huge assumption.

Was the hazard adequately reduced or isolated according the hierarchy matrix?

If indeed there was a hazard and the manager was aware then it should have been isolated shouldn't it?

If you are working on a tree on the footpath is it the publics fault when you drop a branch and they have wandered into your jobsite or is it your fault for not securing and isloating the jobsite?

You are way wrong on this one.

Sean Freeman · 1st August 2009, 09:54 AM

It is always terrible when someone is seriously hurt or killed, I feel very sorry for her family.

Media generally are very unreliable sources of info about the facts relating to such cases they are more often than not a lot more interested in beating up the story.

just starting · 1st August 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Where does it say she was aware of the hazard? That from the information provided is a huge assumption.

Was the hazard adequately reduced or isolated according the hierarchy matrix?

If indeed there was a hazard and the manager was aware then it should have been isolated shouldn't it?

You are way wrong on this one.

As Sean has pointed out we may not be getting the full story but...

Isn't every tree hazardous? What we don’t know is how likely it was for her to be hit (and killed) by a falling dead branch. If it was extremely unlikely then it may have been that the manager had acted appropriately.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t their other ways of assessing risks other than using a matrix. Doesn't QTRA look at it in a different way?

Stairs kill about 1 person in a million (UK data) each year yet there is no program to remove all stairs or to stop people from using them. Should the manager have taken action if the risk of a person being seriously harmed by the tree was only 1 in million? I think not though I am sure that there are many who would disagree

Abe

Jeff Darby · 1st August 2009, 01:01 PM

Just Starting ,

I have been following this thread since it was first posted on Treeworld.

I have been following your input aswell, I have noticed you seem to be posting in an antagonistic belligerent maner.

Treeworld is all about furthering matters relating to Arboriculture, in good natured helpful comments on the subject being discussed. A place where anyone can pose questions post pictures and know they will receive helpful advice for free, your posts seem to lack the spirit this forum was intended for.

Because of this your account is under review.

JayD

Moderator Treeworld

Eric Frei · 1st August 2009, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

Just Starting ,

I have been following this thread since it was first posted on Treeworld.

I have been following your input aswell, I have noticed you seem to be posting in an antagonistic belligerent maner.

Treeworld is all about furthering matters relating to Arboriculture, in good natured helpful comments on the subject being discussed. A place where anyone can pose questions post pictures and know they will receive helpful advice for free, your posts seem to lack the spirit this forum was intended for.

Because of this your account is under review.

JayD

Moderator Treeworld

The thing about this place is it's privately owned, be me. When it comes to the stage that I have to cringe when I see a certain poster I know it's time to say goodbye to that poster.

Often the same circle of events occur or same warning signs, things like not identifying themselves (anonymous), BS email addresses like optusnet or gmail etc, undermining others, arguing rhetoric, not validating their "sources", opinion passed as fact, pseudo cyber bullying specific posters and so on .... generally poor to no content is added however they also are experts in shitting on others content.

When it's like that, it's goodbye, because it is my house and I decide who's invited and who isn't. So, being a little democratic about it your account was reviewed amongst others to make sure it wasn't just me reading the wrong thing. And the decision was made, goodbye Just Starting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by just starting

As Sean has pointed out we may not be getting the full story but...

Isn't every tree hazardous? What we don’t know is how likely it was for her to be hit (and killed) by a falling dead branch. If it was extremely unlikely then it may have been that the manager had acted appropriately.

Correct me if I am wrong but aren’t their other ways of assessing risks other than using a matrix. Doesn't QTRA look at it in a different way?

Stairs kill about 1 person in a million (UK data) each year yet there is no program to remove all stairs or to stop people from using them. Should the manager have taken action if the risk of a person being seriously harmed by the tree was only 1 in million? I think not though I am sure that there are many who would disagree

Abe

Again, same merry go round like some old knight on a high horse rounding up the peasants.

Lets make some pretty sound assumptions about this case.

1/ The dead lady was 60 years old, I cannot see a 60 year old lady leaving the well beaten track so likely she was on some type of thoroughfare like a footpath or road.

2/ Management was notified twice, that means either more than one person thought it was hazardous enough or the one person was worried and reported it twice possibly wondering when something was going to be done about it.

3/ It was an apartment complex with a manager, he/she is then charged with OHS responsibility for the area and paid a fee/commission to manage the complex. It is then his/her job to do something about it.

4/ It was deadwood, which means it can shed at anytime regardless of weather.

Now, if the manager did have or employ some sort of risk assessment system (QTRA or other) which demonstrated that the risk was simply too small to worry about then he/she will be tested in court, I suppose if he/she loses then he/she will sue the manufacturer of the tool they used for losses.

Way I see it, nothing was done, deadwood fell hitting a person using a thoroughfare on a managed complex ... spells negligence.

In many resorts the regular cleaning of coconut palms and the dreaded cocos palm is an ongoing event which also lead to the innovative coconet invention to manage these types of risks, hundreds of people a year die from falling coconuts, in fact more than die from shark attacks.

Falling Coconuts Kill More People Than Shark Attacks

Quote:

"Falling coconuts kill 150 people worldwide each year, 15 times the number of fatalities attributable to sharks," said George Burgess, Director of the University of Florida's International Shark Attack File and a noted shark researcher.

"The reality is that, on the list of potential dangers encountered in aquatic recreation, sharks are right at the bottom of the list," said Burgess who was one of three scientists participating Tuesday in a National Sea Grant College Program and NOAA Fisheries sponsored press briefing on sharks and the risks of shark attacks at the National Press Club.

The event served to put the risk of shark attacks in perspective, provide resources on how to reduce the chance of a shark encounter, explain the scientific value of sharks to the coastal ecosystem and discuss fisheries management and conservation issues.

The event also marked the launch of a special NOAA informational website on sharks.

The need for public education about sharks and shark attacks arose after intense media attention was given to last summer's shark encounters. The frenzy surrounding sharks was capped by one publication dubbing 2001 "The Summer of the Shark" in a July cover story. The result was a frightened public -- especially along the East Coast, where much of the shark attack publicity was centered.

Burgess explained that the prevailing perception was that 2001 was a record year for shark attacks. In fact, the number of unprovoked shark attacks in the U.S. during the summer of 2001 was nearly identical to the previous summer. Internationally, there were actually fewer (76) unprovoked attacks last summer than in the summer of 2000, when there were 86.

While the number of shark attacks has consistently risen from year to year, so has the human population, said Burgess. More people spend time in or near the ocean than ever before. Additionally, records for tracking shark attacks have become more efficient, contributing to the increased numbers of shark incidences.

Joining Burgess in the presentations about shark attacks, shark biology and shark conservation and management were Bob Hueter, Director of the Center for Shark Research at the Mote Marine Laboratory and Rebecca Lent, Deputy Assistant Administrator for Regulatory Programs at NOAA Fisheries.

In her presentation, Lent noted that shark populations are not rising. Some shark populations have been in decline since the mid-1980s, when the commercial fishing industry began catching sharks in great numbers.

Sharks are vulnerable to overfishing because they have long lives, require many years to mature and produce few young at a time. Since recovery to pre-fishing populations will take many years, it is important for the shark fishery to be managed to promote its long-term health, explained Lent.

Current management efforts, developed by NOAA Fisheries in 1993, include harvest limits in commercial and recreational fisheries, data collection programs, permitting and reporting requirements, bycatch reduction of sharks in all fisheries and promoting sea safety for shark fishermen. These measures apply to sharks in the Atlantic Ocean, Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean Sea and may soon include the Pacific Ocean.

In 2001, NOAA Fisheries implemented the Shark Finning Prohibition Act, a national ban on the practice of removing a shark's fin and dumping the remaining body into the water. They also released a National Plan for Action for the Conservation and Management of Sharks, and encouraged other countries to develop similar shark conservation and management measures.

"The benefits of sharks to people far outweigh the threat they pose," said Bob Hueter, Director of the Center for Shark Research at the Mote Marine Laboratory. Their unique biology and resource value make them an important marine resource.

One of the shark's benefits to the ocean environment, Hueter explained, is its position on top of the food chain. As a predator to most animals, it provides ecological balance and biological control of other species.

Sharks provide benefits to human health, too, with anti-cancer properties and as a source of therapeutic materials. Also, its highly developed biological structure makes it a classic vertebrate anatomy tool.

Most sharks feed on smaller fishes and other marine creatures, not humans. When a shark bites a person, it is usually by mistake. Once it realizes that it has not bitten a fish, it lets go and swims away. The result is usually a bruise or cut that requires stitches but is not life-threatening. Occasionally, however, shark bites cause serious injuries and can be fatal on rare occasions.

The relative risk of a shark attack is very small, but risks should always be minimized whenever possible in any activity. The chances of having an interaction with a shark can be reduced if one heeds the following advice that comes from Burgess's International Shark Attack File Website:

* Always stay in groups, as sharks are more likely to attack a solitary individual.

* Do not wander too far from shore -- this isolates an individual and additionally places one far away from assistance.

* Avoid being in the water during darkness or twilight hours when sharks are most active and have a competitive sensory advantage.

* Do not enter the water if bleeding from an open wound or if menstruating -- a shark's olfactory ability is acute.

* Wearing shiny jewelry is discouraged because the reflected light resembles the sheen of fish scales.

* Avoid waters with known effluents or sewage and those being used by sport or commercial fishermen, especially if there are signs of bait fishes or feeding activity. Diving seabirds are good indicators of such action.

* Sightings of porpoises do not indicate the absence of sharks -- both often eat the same food items.

* Use extra caution when waters are murky and avoid uneven tanning and bright colored clothing -- sharks see contrast particularly well.

* Refrain from excess splashing and do not allow pets in the water because of their erratic movements.

* Exercise caution when occupying the area between sandbars or near steep drop offs -- these are favorite hangouts for sharks.

* Do not enter the water if sharks are known to be present and evacuate the water if sharks are seen while there. And, of course, do not harass a shark if you see one.

Garry Brockley · 2nd August 2009, 09:02 AM

I see what you mean i jumped to the assumption that as the complex had been warned twice about the branch that they would have informed the residents, i assumed they would take the action of a reasonable person and cordon off the tree if it was thought to be hazardous. mistake noted.

Eric Frei · 2nd August 2009, 09:09 AM

No worries.

You know when you are working in public areas what the public are like. They'll even lift up a hazard tape to wander beneath it pushing a pram heading right under the tree you are cutting.

When Jim1NZ and I were doing a crane job we had traffic control to stop pedestrians and cyclist when loads were being lifted. Anyway a guy on a bike with a little tow behind trailer with a kid in it, he wasn't stopping, he played dodge with the paddle pop man and went straight around him and flew past the bloke down the other end.

When dealing with the public they say assume an intellect of a 12yo, I reckon it's a lot lower.

Garry Brockley · 2nd August 2009, 09:21 AM

Yes i know that one, Kalangur, tower job large euc over the road, signs up everywhere, cones and traffic control in place, i gave the order to stop the traffic from the tower three cars at each end stopped, I put a wide gob in then started the back cut, then a female drove inside the cycle lane which was signed and marked closed past the cars, the traffic controller kicked the car in the door and shouted at her to stop, then an argument ensued i finished my cut and dropped the 5 meters of gum in the road 4 to 5 meters from the front of her car, there was a moment of silence then the traffic controller looked at me and smiled like i had just dropped it on cue, she got reported for that. 12 year old mentality from the public that was a mis print, 2 year old mentality is more like what i expect from the public.

Eric Frei · 21st August 2009, 11:59 PM

Post the source or evidence then.

Here's another, perhaps take your fight there Mark Hartley as you are banned from here so dont troll!

http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...sharks-02.html

Bruce Hopf · 22nd August 2009, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galbee

Yes i know that one, Kalangur, tower job large euc over the road, signs up everywhere, cones and traffic control in place, i gave the order to stop the traffic from the tower three cars at each end stopped, I put a wide gob in then started the back cut, then a female drove inside the cycle lane which was signed and marked closed past the cars, the traffic controller kicked the car in the door and shouted at her to stop, then an argument ensued i finished my cut and dropped the 5 meters of gum in the road 4 to 5 meters from the front of her car, there was a moment of silence then the traffic controller looked at me and smiled like i had just dropped it on cue, she got reported for that. 12 year old mentality from the public that was a mis print, 2 year old mentality is more like what i expect from the public.

I'm not trying to pick an argument, but you might be too generous of the public having a 2 year old mentality.
10 years ago, while I was driving transport truck in a snow storm, I topped a hill, and at the top of the hill was a stop sign. I hit the brakes, went into a skid )because the road was covered with wet snow, I was grossed at 63,500 Kgs, and also going down hill), I went through a T intersection, Jackknifed the truck, went into a gully, taking down a Hydro Pole to boot.
There was two transport trucks stopped before the intersection, because the lead truck saw the sparks fly from the hydro lines as they had fallen.
This guy in a car, came along, pulled his car up beside the lead truck, and gave him heck, for stopping in the middle of the road.
After this Bozo was finished giving the driver of the transport truck a piece of his mind, he drove his car, across the hydro lines that were laying across the road, not knowing if they were Live or Not.
Goes to show you, that they are out there, everywhere. Bruce.

1st August 2009, 08:44 AM	#91
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! Where does it say she was aware of the hazard? That from the information provided is a huge assumption. Was the hazard adequately reduced or isolated according the hierarchy matrix? If indeed there was a hazard and the manager was aware then it should have been isolated shouldn't it? If you are working on a tree on the footpath is it the publics fault when you drop a branch and they have wandered into your jobsite or is it your fault for not securing and isloating the jobsite? You are way wrong on this one. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

1st August 2009, 09:54 AM	#92
Sean Freeman Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,981	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! It is always terrible when someone is seriously hurt or killed, I feel very sorry for her family. Media generally are very unreliable sources of info about the facts relating to such cases they are more often than not a lot more interested in beating up the story.

1st August 2009, 01:01 PM	#94
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! Just Starting , I have been following this thread since it was first posted on Treeworld. I have been following your input aswell, I have noticed you seem to be posting in an antagonistic belligerent maner. Treeworld is all about furthering matters relating to Arboriculture, in good natured helpful comments on the subject being discussed. A place where anyone can pose questions post pictures and know they will receive helpful advice for free, your posts seem to lack the spirit this forum was intended for. Because of this your account is under review. JayD Moderator Treeworld __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

2nd August 2009, 09:02 AM	#96
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! I see what you mean i jumped to the assumption that as the complex had been warned twice about the branch that they would have informed the residents, i *assumed* they would take the action of a reasonable person and cordon off the tree if it was thought to be hazardous. mistake noted. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

2nd August 2009, 09:09 AM	#97
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! No worries. You know when you are working in public areas what the public are like. They'll even lift up a hazard tape to wander beneath it pushing a pram heading right under the tree you are cutting. When Jim1NZ and I were doing a crane job we had traffic control to stop pedestrians and cyclist when loads were being lifted. Anyway a guy on a bike with a little tow behind trailer with a kid in it, he wasn't stopping, he played dodge with the paddle pop man and went straight around him and flew past the bloke down the other end. When dealing with the public they say assume an intellect of a 12yo, I reckon it's a lot lower. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

2nd August 2009, 09:21 AM	#98
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! Yes i know that one, Kalangur, tower job large euc over the road, signs up everywhere, cones and traffic control in place, i gave the order to stop the traffic from the tower three cars at each end stopped, I put a wide gob in then started the back cut, then a female drove inside the cycle lane which was signed and marked closed past the cars, the traffic controller kicked the car in the door and shouted at her to stop, then an argument ensued i finished my cut and dropped the 5 meters of gum in the road 4 to 5 meters from the front of her car, there was a moment of silence then the traffic controller looked at me and smiled like i had just dropped it on cue, she got reported for that. 12 year old mentality from the public that was a mis print, 2 year old mentality is more like what i expect from the public. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

21st August 2009, 11:59 PM	#99
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,994	Re: Ignore it then claim insurance! Post the source or evidence then. Here's another, perhaps take your fight there Mark Hartley as you are banned from here so dont troll! http://www.aims.gov.au/pages/researc...sharks-02.html __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

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