How to prune.

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 06:14 PM

Just another little thread I thought I would throw out there. No pictures inclusive with this one but feel free to add your own.
I personally have a little problem with the usage of the word pruning. It seems to mean so many things. What in your definition is pruning and where is it needed??

newguy18 · 27th January 2008, 06:50 PM

thought you said in chat you knew how to prune?

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 07:00 PM

I'm looking for answers from others not what I hold true for myself.

newguy18 · 27th January 2008, 07:04 PM

alright then i'll bite.i know topping is bad.stick with crown thinning.make sure to cut just outside the collar if ones present any other time just outside the bbr.oh and don't remove more than 25 percent of the canopy.[unless its a fruit tree in a production orchard.]

TreeDimensional · 27th January 2008, 07:27 PM

To me pruning is the alteration of a tree or shrub by selectivley removing tissue. The way I start is to remove dead, diseased, damaged, crossing and competing limbs first. Once this is done, I re-assess the crown and determine if the tree could or should have anything else done at that time. If more limbs can be cut, we remove the ones which pose a threat of becoming a structural issues (ie. poor angle of attachment or poor taper) Unless there are issues of safety(ie, inhibiting a view at an intersection, or pose a threat of failure). I believe the last objective should be athetics, why would anyone want to leave a stressed, pretty tree behind.

This is only my opinion, and I could have gone on a lot more. I guess I should have stopped after the first sentence. Grill me if you will.

The issue of pruning varies not only in each coutry, but in each geographic location around the world.

newguy18 · 27th January 2008, 07:33 PM

personally if it doesn't have targets around it i recomend they be left alone.i did that witn a live oak a friend of mine asked me about.it is in his wood line and has limbs growing on the ground and in my opinion looks good and should be left alone.oh oz i'm still waiting.

dannyboysfc · 27th January 2008, 07:36 PM

Well there are different reasons for pruning, and different types of pruning. Removing large hazardous or dead limbs, corrective pruning for trees that have been hacked in the past, pruning to develop good structure, thinning and endweight reduction to keep trees from growing out of controll and blowing over or breaking in wind and storms, asthetic pruning to keep trees looking good, and more, plus any combination of these.

Heres a tree that I did, it was hacked(all main branches chopped of to stubs in the past) I cleaned out all dead wood, reduced endweight on heavy branches, thinned the canopy to allow the wind to pass through without blowing the tree over or breaking branches, removed crossing or competing leaders and branches etc.... complete prune really, the customer lost one just like it to the wind last year so he wanted to do something to help this one. I actually talked him out of topping it agian and he ended up really happy with the look and said it did great in the 60 mph+ winds we had recently.

before:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...c/DSC00241.jpg

After
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...c/DSC00244.jpg

newguy18 · 27th January 2008, 07:42 PM

real good job you did danny.

Ekka · 27th January 2008, 07:45 PM

Danny, looks like they filled the base up, those blocks etc are above original grade ... not good.

There's no trunk flare.

and, what sort of tree is it?

Also, why do they bath outside?

dannyboysfc · 27th January 2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Danny, looks like they filled the base up, those blocks etc are above original grade ... not good.

There's no trunk flare.

and, what sort of tree is it?

Also, why do they bath outside?

Don't know what to say bout the bathtub out front.

As far as the blocks and trunk flare, that was the first thing that I noticed and discussed with the client.

We will be doing something about that, its next on the list.

I don't know what kinda tree it is other than it seems to me to be a euc, couldnt tell you which one.

Sean Freeman · 27th January 2008, 08:14 PM

Danny, why did you take so much live foliage off from inside the structure of the canopy?

dannyboysfc · 27th January 2008, 08:21 PM

Nothin but dead wood in there! It actually looks thinner from that angle than it really is.

Sean Freeman · 27th January 2008, 09:03 PM

Okay, you were actually there I was not, and yes pics can be deceptive with angles etc... Lot of live looking foliage on the ground though

I take on board what you originally wrote about the concern that your client had about a previous failure, and you not wanting them to top this tree.

My 2cents........you're on a hiding to nothing with the existing multi-stemmed strucutre of the tree that almost braided effect those codominants have created and the continual competition for light and apical dominance makes it a complicated example. (It looks like regrowth to me from a stump that is buried in that raised bed) Removing crossing and rubbing branches (where they have been significantly compromised) would certainly have taken a fair chunk out of the tree's live canopy.

Just as with any pruning that envolves codominance if you can, reduce rather than remove.

When it comes to reducing the sail or wind loading effect on the canopy it pays to recognise that very small reductions in height make a big deal of difference in loading.

Eucs all most all have a growth pattern in their foliage that is very end heavy, even trees that have not been pruned ever can and do look lions tailed...it makes any kind of pruning of trees older than juvenile age class something of a headache!

Personally I'm not convinced that opening the internal canopy results in better resiliance to storm events, what I personally believe is that you can expose limbs and branches to angles of wind loading they have never been accustomed to and that can lead to failures in itself....rather like edge exposure in forest stands after clear felling.

If there are concerns by clients about limb and branch failures, yet there are no visual indicators then I would be trying to argue for improvement of the health and vigour of the tree...look to the soil and roots...in the case of your pic there are some problems there that I think you are well aware of.

With pruning I feel its nearly always about dose, and this is intimately linked to the species/age/health/vigour/environment/target so on....

For me Danny you took too much off, but outside of the deadwood and weakened crossing branches the real problems for this tree are in the ground.

dannyboysfc · 27th January 2008, 09:18 PM

Thank you for your input Sean

The tree was pretty much a mess, as I said before it had been topped previously and had anywhere from 3-6 codominant leaders coming from each old topping cut. I had to reduce these in order for the tree to have strong branch attatchments in the future that may be why you see so much brush on the ground and it looks so thin inside.

Like I said the root issue with that raised bed around the base of the tree will be taken care of.

I will be taking on this tree from now on, next year will be light endweight reduction and cleaning out deadwood and mabey real light structural pruning.

ozinus · 27th January 2008, 10:44 PM

I was hoping these questions would have been fielded from a lot more places and It certainly wasn't a trap,..... Danny boy,... however you seem to have been caught in it for scrutiny at least anyway.... Never fear it is a good thing is it not.
By all accounts the tree does look nice. It is however Lions tailed. This can be justified by photos through whatever means but at the end of the day the initial amount of foliage was apparent.It is not a bad thing please don't dishearten.... I only ask you to scrutinize your own work and if you are happy how may I condemn.... The tree has issues to which you have eluded.
My thoughts would be pruning is not the first course of action this may only place an already stressed tree unit into a further stressful situation. I am thinking that people are wanting clarification by a bracket and a name but stuff 'em .. Next ...ya know stuff it I think you are capable of seeing all of the things here... a far better thing would be for you to explain why you did what you did and see if you change your mind along the way... OR NOT.

dannyboysfc · 27th January 2008, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozinus

By all accounts the tree does look nice. It is however Lions tailed. This can be justified by photos through whatever means but at the end of the day the initial amount of foliage was apparent.It is not a bad thing please don't dishearten.... I only ask you to scrutinize your own work and if you are happy how may I condemn.... The tree has issues to which you have eluded.
My thoughts would be pruning is not the first course of action this may only place an already stressed tree unit into a further stressful situation. I am thinking that people are wanting clarification by a bracket and a name but stuff 'em .. Next ...ya know stuff it I think you are capable of seeing all of the things here... a far better thing would be for you to explain why you did what you did and see if you change your mind along the way... OR NOT.

I did not lion tail the tree, Corrective pruning was needed. Tree not stressed at all, quite contrary it is very vigorous. We already established the fact that something needs to be done at the root flare and was already on my mind before this thread started. Anyway, this thread is about pruning, right.

Heres another shot, you can see that the tree was pretty hollow in the center before I even started.

Ekka · 27th January 2008, 11:40 PM

Most pruning pics I show look like lions tailing. Very difficult to show otherwise.

Trees here naturally lions tail, the removal of internal dead wood and sucker growth can display a lions tailed tree to the outside world.

I personally find that pruning pics are the hardest to take, to show the precision of work, the angle of cuts, the differentiation between bad wood and good is seldom caught on the camera ... nor on video.

27th January 2008, 06:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	How to prune. Just another little thread I thought I would throw out there. No pictures inclusive with this one but feel free to add your own. I personally have a little problem with the usage of the word pruning. It seems to mean so many things. What in your definition is pruning and where is it needed??

27th January 2008, 06:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: How to prune. thought you said in chat you knew how to prune? __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

27th January 2008, 07:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: How to prune. I'm looking for answers from others not what I hold true for myself.

27th January 2008, 07:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: How to prune. alright then i'll bite.i know topping is bad.stick with crown thinning.make sure to cut just outside the collar if ones present any other time just outside the bbr.oh and don't remove more than 25 percent of the canopy.[unless its a fruit tree in a production orchard.] __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

27th January 2008, 07:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: How to prune. To me pruning is the alteration of a tree or shrub by selectivley removing tissue. The way I start is to remove dead, diseased, damaged, crossing and competing limbs first. Once this is done, I re-assess the crown and determine if the tree could or should have anything else done at that time. If more limbs can be cut, we remove the ones which pose a threat of becoming a structural issues (ie. poor angle of attachment or poor taper) Unless there are issues of safety(ie, inhibiting a view at an intersection, or pose a threat of failure). I believe the last objective should be athetics, why would anyone want to leave a stressed, pretty tree behind. This is only my opinion, and I could have gone on a lot more. I guess I should have stopped after the first sentence. Grill me if you will. The issue of pruning varies not only in each coutry, but in each geographic location around the world.

27th January 2008, 07:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: How to prune. personally if it doesn't have targets around it i recomend they be left alone.i did that witn a live oak a friend of mine asked me about.it is in his wood line and has limbs growing on the ground and in my opinion looks good and should be left alone.oh oz i'm still waiting. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

27th January 2008, 07:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 121	Re: How to prune. Well there are different reasons for pruning, and different types of pruning. Removing large hazardous or dead limbs, corrective pruning for trees that have been hacked in the past, pruning to develop good structure, thinning and endweight reduction to keep trees from growing out of controll and blowing over or breaking in wind and storms, asthetic pruning to keep trees looking good, and more, plus any combination of these. Heres a tree that I did, it was hacked(all main branches chopped of to stubs in the past) I cleaned out all dead wood, reduced endweight on heavy branches, thinned the canopy to allow the wind to pass through without blowing the tree over or breaking branches, removed crossing or competing leaders and branches etc.... complete prune really, the customer lost one just like it to the wind last year so he wanted to do something to help this one. I actually talked him out of topping it agian and he ended up really happy with the look and said it did great in the 60 mph+ winds we had recently. before: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...c/DSC00241.jpg After http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a23...c/DSC00244.jpg

27th January 2008, 07:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,677	Re: How to prune. real good job you did danny. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

27th January 2008, 07:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,915	Re: How to prune. Danny, looks like they filled the base up, those blocks etc are above original grade ... not good. There's no trunk flare. and, what sort of tree is it? Also, why do they bath outside? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

27th January 2008, 08:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: How to prune. Danny, why did you take so much live foliage off from inside the structure of the canopy? __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

27th January 2008, 08:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 121	Re: How to prune. Nothin but dead wood in there! It actually looks thinner from that angle than it really is.

27th January 2008, 09:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: How to prune. Okay, you were actually there I was not, and yes pics can be deceptive with angles etc... Lot of live looking foliage on the ground though I take on board what you originally wrote about the concern that your client had about a previous failure, and you not wanting them to top this tree. My 2cents........you're on a hiding to nothing with the existing multi-stemmed strucutre of the tree that almost braided effect those codominants have created and the continual competition for light and apical dominance makes it a complicated example. (It looks like regrowth to me from a stump that is buried in that raised bed) Removing crossing and rubbing branches (where they have been significantly compromised) would certainly have taken a fair chunk out of the tree's live canopy. Just as with any pruning that envolves codominance if you can, reduce rather than remove. When it comes to reducing the sail or wind loading effect on the canopy it pays to recognise that very small reductions in height make a big deal of difference in loading. Eucs all most all have a growth pattern in their foliage that is very end heavy, even trees that have not been pruned ever can and do look lions tailed...it makes any kind of pruning of trees older than juvenile age class something of a headache! Personally I'm not convinced that opening the internal canopy results in better resiliance to storm events, what I personally believe is that you can expose limbs and branches to angles of wind loading they have never been accustomed to and that can lead to failures in itself....rather like edge exposure in forest stands after clear felling. If there are concerns by clients about limb and branch failures, yet there are no visual indicators then I would be trying to argue for improvement of the health and vigour of the tree...look to the soil and roots...in the case of your pic there are some problems there that I think you are well aware of. With pruning I feel its nearly always about dose, and this is intimately linked to the species/age/health/vigour/environment/target so on.... For me Danny you took too much off, but outside of the deadwood and weakened crossing branches the real problems for this tree are in the ground. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran Last edited by Sean Freeman : 27th January 2008 at 09:30 PM. Reason: spelling yet again for the millionth time!

27th January 2008, 09:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 121	Re: How to prune. Thank you for your input Sean The tree was pretty much a mess, as I said before it had been topped previously and had anywhere from 3-6 codominant leaders coming from each old topping cut. I had to reduce these in order for the tree to have strong branch attatchments in the future that may be why you see so much brush on the ground and it looks so thin inside. Like I said the root issue with that raised bed around the base of the tree will be taken care of. I will be taking on this tree from now on, next year will be light endweight reduction and cleaning out deadwood and mabey real light structural pruning.

27th January 2008, 10:44 PM	#15 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: How to prune. I was hoping these questions would have been fielded from a lot more places and It certainly wasn't a trap,..... Danny boy,... however you seem to have been caught in it for scrutiny at least anyway.... Never fear it is a good thing is it not. By all accounts the tree does look nice. It is however Lions tailed. This can be justified by photos through whatever means but at the end of the day the initial amount of foliage was apparent.It is not a bad thing please don't dishearten.... I only ask you to scrutinize your own work and if you are happy how may I condemn.... The tree has issues to which you have eluded. My thoughts would be pruning is not the first course of action this may only place an already stressed tree unit into a further stressful situation. I am thinking that people are wanting clarification by a bracket and a name but stuff 'em .. Next ...ya know stuff it I think you are capable of seeing all of the things here... a far better thing would be for you to explain why you did what you did and see if you change your mind along the way... OR NOT.

27th January 2008, 11:40 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,915	Re: How to prune. Most pruning pics I show look like lions tailing. Very difficult to show otherwise. Trees here naturally lions tail, the removal of internal dead wood and sucker growth can display a lions tailed tree to the outside world. I personally find that pruning pics are the hardest to take, to show the precision of work, the angle of cuts, the differentiation between bad wood and good is seldom caught on the camera ... nor on video. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors