how much rot| decay| hollow is acceptable?

newguy18 · 12th January 2008, 09:31 PM

I'm starting out in this industry and would like those who are experianced to say how much rot is safe to leave in a tree or when its time to remove it.

Ekka · 12th January 2008, 11:23 PM

Hmmm, we might have to can this poll and thread to start another one because.

There's no definition as to whether that rot is inside the tree (hollow tree) or around the outside of the tree or branch like an opening.

Also the terminology should be % of wood gone, A general rule of thumb is trees can be relatively stable at 70% hollow, however it also depends on the size of the tree and species.

For instance, a short fat tree vs a long skinny one. For example, a 40" dia oak might only be 80' high but a 40" dia euc could be 200' high and as such the wind loading entirely different.

Larger tree like your oak also use their weight for stability meaning they can be more hollow, some apparently still standing with under 10% (90% hollow).

In a bunch of failed eucs called forest red gums around here I noted the average hollow was 83% but that was also with an opening of approximately half the circumference.

Very hard thing to poll this one, but the 70% hollow rule of thumb is there. The USFD uses a system where if the circumference has more than 40% opening then they halve the hollow to around 35%.

Now there's also pruning that can take place so the tree can continue to stand and live. Reduce, thin etc.

How hollow/decayed is the Anne Frank tree? We know they've reduced and pruned it. It is 28% holding wood or good wood as of 2007

windthrown · 13th January 2008, 01:52 AM

Yah, it would depend on the application. In my case, I remove all dying trees here from the conifer stand. Keeps the spread of disease down that way. If I see a conk (fruiting body of a fungus) I generally cut the whole tree down. In the orchard, if I see rot on a branch, I prun it out or cut the branch off. Rot and decay and hollow are different things though. I also have some old hollow trunk apple trees that I left here (letting some of the suckers grow, as they are old and not grafted, and I want to replace them with sports on their own roots). However, the old hollow apple trees should be felled (along with the old hollow box elder tree that is a hazard; but it could live for another 20 years if it was of some importance, which it is not here).

As Ekka says, it is highly variable.

quercus · 13th January 2008, 02:16 AM

Tomograph readings have shown that the Anne Frank tree is about 70% hollow.

I'll have to agree to can this poll. VTA assesment tells us that a tree is still safe even if it is 70 % hollow or infected. So terminology of wood being gone is not always correct. Out here, too many beech trees fail because of being infected with ganoderma adspersum and then the wood is certainly not gone when the tree fails. Rotten can be the correct word in this case.

Rotten/infected/decayed/hollow are very different things in treecare.
Would I leave a severely rotten or hollow tree alone? Depends on the surroundings and what it could inflict.
So the decision would be based on:
-kind of tree
-dimensions
-surroundings
-significance
-structure
-health
-possible counter measures
-...

azrael · 13th January 2008, 02:47 AM

Beaufort Scale (Also useful when recording wind speed for pesticide usage record keeping...in the 0-5 range).
Bureau - Beaufort Wind Scale
Source: Australian Bureau of Meteorology

Ekka · 13th January 2008, 03:21 AM

Oh yeah, now root rot is a real bugger.

Beaufort 12 is a flamin hurricane! Hey Quercus, that tree with all the press it's getting has made it a tourist boom, over a million visitors a year.

Sean Freeman · 13th January 2008, 03:27 AM

I think your original question is a good one Newguy but agree with Eric it has to be refined to lead to useful discussion.

Ekka · 13th January 2008, 03:36 AM

The poll is gone but the discussion remains as is good.

bigshea13 · 13th January 2008, 05:15 AM

has anyone ever heard of a tree in europe that a king owned. there was something about , every time a branch fell a member of the royal family died. i cant remember where i read this but if i remember right they spent tons of time and rescources trying to keep this thing alive. the description is pretty vague but maybe one of you history junkies might recall.

Sean Freeman · 13th January 2008, 12:46 PM

bigshea13 I think you are talking about the chained oak in the grounds of Alton Towers amusement park....used to be the part of the estate of the Earl of Shrewsbury...Chained oak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Though always worth remembering that legends tend to adopt many different threads over time and get more and more confused in the retelling...bits of other slightly related stories get adopted and incorporated.
The attached pics are from a website reviewing a bed and breakfast place next to the site of the tree....as you can see a large limb has torn off the oak, apparently noone in the Earl's family has died as yet!

alton.jpg

the-tree.jpg

bigshea13 · 13th January 2008, 05:32 PM

sean, thanks. thats probably the one. the story line sounds right.

newguy18 · 15th January 2008, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the insight on how vaible rot in trees are guys.Ekka thanks for removing the poll as well because your right it is hard to give absolutes.I asked because I have been removing rotten trees and was wondering if some of the lesser cases might be able to be saved and its obvious that they can.

treeseer · 16th January 2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

Thanks for the insight on how vaible rot in trees are guys.Ekka thanks for removing the poll as well because your right it is hard to give absolutes.I asked because I have been removing rotten trees and was wondering if some of the lesser cases might be able to be saved and its obvious that they can.

Most definitely--especially white and live oaks. attached is an article from tci mag--tree was ~85% hollow, and stood safely for 13 years til it declined. Page 32 here: http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_Nov_05.pdf

Sean Freeman · 16th January 2008, 06:55 PM

Great article, really enjoyed reading it thanks Guy.

newguy18 · 16th January 2008, 07:35 PM

Thanks guy that is a really good read and I hope to be that good of an arborist one day.

treeseer · 17th January 2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

12th January 2008, 09:31 PM	#1 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	how much rot\| decay\| hollow is acceptable? I'm starting out in this industry and would like those who are experianced to say how much rot is safe to leave in a tree or when its time to remove it. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

12th January 2008, 11:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Hmmm, we might have to can this poll and thread to start another one because. There's no definition as to whether that rot is inside the tree (hollow tree) or around the outside of the tree or branch like an opening. Also the terminology should be % of wood gone, A general rule of thumb is trees can be relatively stable at 70% hollow, however it also depends on the size of the tree and species. For instance, a short fat tree vs a long skinny one. For example, a 40" dia oak might only be 80' high but a 40" dia euc could be 200' high and as such the wind loading entirely different. Larger tree like your oak also use their weight for stability meaning they can be more hollow, some apparently still standing with under 10% (90% hollow). In a bunch of failed eucs called forest red gums around here I noted the average hollow was 83% but that was also with an opening of approximately half the circumference. Very hard thing to poll this one, but the 70% hollow rule of thumb is there. The USFD uses a system where if the circumference has more than 40% opening then they halve the hollow to around 35%. Now there's also pruning that can take place so the tree can continue to stand and live. Reduce, thin etc. How hollow/decayed is the Anne Frank tree? We know they've reduced and pruned it. *It is 28% holding wood or good wood as of 2007* __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors Last edited by Ekka : 15th January 2008 at 09:44 PM. Reason: added 28% answer

13th January 2008, 01:52 AM	#3 (permalink)
windthrown Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 127	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Yah, it would depend on the application. In my case, I remove all dying trees here from the conifer stand. Keeps the spread of disease down that way. If I see a conk (fruiting body of a fungus) I generally cut the whole tree down. In the orchard, if I see rot on a branch, I prun it out or cut the branch off. Rot and decay and hollow are different things though. I also have some old hollow trunk apple trees that I left here (letting some of the suckers grow, as they are old and not grafted, and I want to replace them with sports on their own roots). However, the old hollow apple trees should be felled (along with the old hollow box elder tree that is a hazard; but it could live for another 20 years if it was of some importance, which it is not here). As Ekka says, it is highly variable. __________________ So few saws, so many trees... Stihls: 210/250-/025/290/361/FS85 Echo: CS-3000, Olympyk & Mac doorstops

13th January 2008, 02:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Tomograph readings have shown that the Anne Frank tree is about 70% hollow. I'll have to agree to can this poll. VTA assesment tells us that a tree is still safe even if it is 70 % hollow or infected. So terminology of wood being gone is not always correct. Out here, too many beech trees fail because of being infected with ganoderma adspersum and then the wood is certainly not gone when the tree fails. Rotten can be the correct word in this case. Rotten/infected/decayed/hollow are very different things in treecare. Would I leave a severely rotten or hollow tree alone? Depends on the surroundings and what it could inflict. So the decision would be based on: -kind of tree -dimensions -surroundings -significance -structure -health -possible counter measures -...

13th January 2008, 02:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 321	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Beaufort Scale (Also useful when recording wind speed for pesticide usage record keeping...in the 0-5 range). Bureau - Beaufort Wind Scale Source: Australian Bureau of Meteorology

13th January 2008, 03:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Oh yeah, now root rot is a real bugger. Beaufort 12 is a flamin hurricane! Hey Quercus, that tree with all the press it's getting has made it a tourist boom, over a million visitors a year. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

13th January 2008, 03:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: how much rot is acceptable? I think your original question is a good one Newguy but agree with Eric it has to be refined to lead to useful discussion. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

13th January 2008, 03:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: how much rot is acceptable? The poll is gone but the discussion remains as is good. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

13th January 2008, 05:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: how much rot is acceptable? has anyone ever heard of a tree in europe that a king owned. there was something about , every time a branch fell a member of the royal family died. i cant remember where i read this but if i remember right they spent tons of time and rescources trying to keep this thing alive. the description is pretty vague but maybe one of you history junkies might recall.

13th January 2008, 12:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: how much rot is acceptable? bigshea13 I think you are talking about the chained oak in the grounds of Alton Towers amusement park....used to be the part of the estate of the Earl of Shrewsbury...Chained oak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Though always worth remembering that legends tend to adopt many different threads over time and get more and more confused in the retelling...bits of other slightly related stories get adopted and incorporated. The attached pics are from a website reviewing a bed and breakfast place next to the site of the tree....as you can see a large limb has torn off the oak, apparently noone in the Earl's family has died as yet! alton.jpg the-tree.jpg __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

13th January 2008, 05:32 PM	#11 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: how much rot is acceptable? sean, thanks. thats probably the one. the story line sounds right.

15th January 2008, 12:07 PM	#12 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Thanks for the insight on how vaible rot in trees are guys.Ekka thanks for removing the poll as well because your right it is hard to give absolutes.I asked because I have been removing rotten trees and was wondering if some of the lesser cases might be able to be saved and its obvious that they can. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

16th January 2008, 06:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Great article, really enjoyed reading it thanks Guy. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

16th January 2008, 07:35 PM	#15 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Thanks guy that is a really good read and I hope to be that good of an arborist one day. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

17th January 2008, 12:44 AM	#16 (permalink)
treeseer Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 585	Re: how much rot is acceptable? Quote: