how much rot| decay| hollow is acceptable?

newguy18

I'm starting out in this industry and would like those who are experianced to say how much rot is safe to leave in a tree or when its time to remove it.

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Eric Frei

Hmmm, we might have to can this poll and thread to start another one because.

There's no definition as to whether that rot is inside the tree (hollow tree) or around the outside of the tree or branch like an opening.

Also the terminology should be % of wood gone, A general rule of thumb is trees can be relatively stable at 70% hollow, however it also depends on the size of the tree and species.

For instance, a short fat tree vs a long skinny one. For example, a 40" dia oak might only be 80' high but a 40" dia euc could be 200' high and as such the wind loading entirely different.

Larger tree like your oak also use their weight for stability meaning they can be more hollow, some apparently still standing with under 10% (90% hollow).

In a bunch of failed eucs called forest red gums around here I noted the average hollow was 83% but that was also with an opening of approximately half the circumference.

Very hard thing to poll this one, but the 70% hollow rule of thumb is there. The USFD uses a system where if the circumference has more than 40% opening then they halve the hollow to around 35%.

Now there's also pruning that can take place so the tree can continue to stand and live. Reduce, thin etc.

How hollow/decayed is the Anne Frank tree? We know they've reduced and pruned it. It is 28% holding wood or good wood as of 2007

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windthrown

Yah, it would depend on the application. In my case, I remove all dying trees here from the conifer stand. Keeps the spread of disease down that way. If I see a conk (fruiting body of a fungus) I generally cut the whole tree down. In the orchard, if I see rot on a branch, I prun it out or cut the branch off. Rot and decay and hollow are different things though. I also have some old hollow trunk apple trees that I left here (letting some of the suckers grow, as they are old and not grafted, and I want to replace them with sports on their own roots). However, the old hollow apple trees should be felled (along with the old hollow box elder tree that is a hazard; but it could live for another 20 years if it was of some importance, which it is not here).

As Ekka says, it is highly variable.

quercus

Tomograph readings have shown that the Anne Frank tree is about 70% hollow.

I'll have to agree to can this poll. VTA assesment tells us that a tree is still safe even if it is 70 % hollow or infected. So terminology of wood being gone is not always correct. Out here, too many beech trees fail because of being infected with ganoderma adspersum and then the wood is certainly not gone when the tree fails. Rotten can be the correct word in this case.

Rotten/infected/decayed/hollow are very different things in treecare.
Would I leave a severely rotten or hollow tree alone? Depends on the surroundings and what it could inflict.
So the decision would be based on:
-kind of tree
-dimensions
-surroundings
-significance
-structure
-health
-possible counter measures
-...

azrael

Beaufort Scale (Also useful when recording wind speed for pesticide usage record keeping...in the 0-5 range).
Bureau - Beaufort Wind Scale
Source: Australian Bureau of Meteorology

Eric Frei

Oh yeah, now root rot is a real bugger.

Beaufort 12 is a flamin hurricane! Hey Quercus, that tree with all the press it's getting has made it a tourist boom, over a million visitors a year.

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Sean Freeman

I think your original question is a good one Newguy but agree with Eric it has to be refined to lead to useful discussion.

Eric Frei

The poll is gone but the discussion remains as is good.

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bigshea13

has anyone ever heard of a tree in europe that a king owned. there was something about , every time a branch fell a member of the royal family died. i cant remember where i read this but if i remember right they spent tons of time and rescources trying to keep this thing alive. the description is pretty vague but maybe one of you history junkies might recall.

Sean Freeman

bigshea13 I think you are talking about the chained oak in the grounds of Alton Towers amusement park....used to be the part of the estate of the Earl of Shrewsbury...Chained oak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Though always worth remembering that legends tend to adopt many different threads over time and get more and more confused in the retelling...bits of other slightly related stories get adopted and incorporated.
The attached pics are from a website reviewing a bed and breakfast place next to the site of the tree....as you can see a large limb has torn off the oak, apparently noone in the Earl's family has died as yet!

bigshea13

sean, thanks. thats probably the one. the story line sounds right.

newguy18

Thanks for the insight on how vaible rot in trees are guys.Ekka thanks for removing the poll as well because your right it is hard to give absolutes.I asked because I have been removing rotten trees and was wondering if some of the lesser cases might be able to be saved and its obvious that they can.

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old schooler

treeseer

Most definitely--especially white and live oaks. attached is an article from tci mag--tree was ~85% hollow, and stood safely for 13 years til it declined. Page 32 here: http://www.tcia.org/PDFs/TCI_Mag_Nov_05.pdf

Attached Files

Goodbye to a Giant.doc (40.5 KB, 66 views)

Sean Freeman

Great article, really enjoyed reading it thanks Guy.

newguy18

Thanks guy that is a really good read and I hope to be that good of an arborist one day.

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treeseer

I was not that good; coulda done much better. Point being, trust in what you know now; don't wait to shift from being a removalist to being a preservationist until you know it all, cuz that day will never come.

"Could this giant have lasted longer? ...More constant and intensive efforts to improve the soil afterward may have helped. If our company was closer, and organized and staffed to the level of a TCIA-Accredited business, the extra care may have resulted in extra years of safe useful life for the tree... "

Eric Frei

I've been watching this tree (Corymbia intermedia, pink bloodwood) for a few years now. It sort of defies gravity and tree wisdom but has seen some mighty tough times and still stands no worries.

This is a pictorial walk through so you all appreciate this awesome tree.

It's the tree with the red arrow you need to watch, note the spread and the weight going over a tree on the right..



Just another angle for you to see the size and position.



Big fat heavy wood.



Looking directly from the back of the lean now, imagine the strength of the roots to hold this big guy up.



And a close up of the business end. Isn't she a ripper?

Attached Thumbnails

         

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Steve Tipton

What the hell holds some of them up?
Looks very similar to our Red Bloodwood,Corymbia Gummifera, Sydney and surrounds.

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Heightmaster

azrael

There a few in W'gong Botanic Grdens - Pink Bloodwood that is. When it rains the bark is all foamy pink from the resin.
Ekka...What's the call on the leaning tree, out of interest...I know youz are all types and would find some way to keep it.

Eric Frei

It's the neibs tree to where I have worked for yonks and he wont spend a cent on it ... so the tree's safe from humans for now.

I'd do pruning and reduction on that long heavy thing but it just goes to show how nature can compensate for it's issues.

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Sean Freeman

Intermedia hybridises freely with both gummifera and maritima. We have all three here.

Lovely pics of a sweet tree Eric, don't you just love the thickness of those door posts around the basal injury...very strong.

quercus

I'd do a free resistograph measuring on that one... Just to see how much decay is in there.

treeseer

Me too, probably, AFTER doing a competent strength assessment--measure the hollow for strength loss, measure the woundwood for strength gain.

Eric Frei

Have a look at the tree in this thread too. All roots etc gone on side opposite lean, and still there, plus we have had a month of wind and rain.



Roadside tree of interest

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newguy18

see thats an example of what I wanted to see.normally I'd remove something if it was rotten like that but I've been told its possible to preserve trees like that.In my opinion[don't anybody get me wrong I'm not trying to insult antone here]but anyone can cut down or remove a tree no real special training but it takes special skills and care as well as training to preserve trees and care and prune them.

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quercus

I can't judge this by looking at this picture alone... I'd have to see surroundings, structure of tree, lean angle and a lot more things. My first oppinion is that this tree needs to be removed, unless of course it's surroundings could permit it to fall over without doing harm.... Wether it has been stormy weather or not, is not the point. The removal of a single tree or structure in this tree's surroundings could cause it to fail.

quercus

special training works in the opposite direction too. So what I'm saying is, that your special training as an arborist could cause a change of mind from preserving to removal. Indeed anyone can cut a tree down, but it is the reason WHY that counts.
For example, you see a apparently healthy tree with some small bodies of fungus on it. It's a fairly heavy tree and it's situation is between buildings and next to a school... You as a regular guy will say: wow that's a nice tree!!! and you don't see any harm in it. You're all for nature and you decide that this tree should be well maintained at all costs. But as an arborist, you see a potential deadly hazard, and those cute looking fungus bodies are for example Ganoderma Australe... You know what I mean?

newguy18

Yeah I under stand you.I'd hate to climb that tree in Ekka's pic though.trunk and heart rot don't worry me but root rot does.

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old schooler