How much is fine for tree removal

GR1971

Say, hypothetically speaking of course, if someone had a very large tree just a couple of metres from their house and they wanted it removed but their stubborn council would not give a permit, how much is the maximum they can be fined if they went ahead and just had it removed anyway? The tree would be of no significance and would not be heritage listed or anything, just a plain old big gum tree planted in the wrong spot by some fool many years ago.

Eric Frei

Works on local law, so which council?

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GR1971

Maroondah

Jeff Darby

How close is close..? http://tiny.cc/kPXn0

The fines are generally hefty..

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Member: Australian Tree Association

Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard !

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GR1971

3 metres. In most cases they have a 3 metre exemption rule but there are a couple of exceptions.

You do not need a permit if:

* the trunk of the tree is within 3 metres of an existing dwelling (excluding outbuildings) unless the dwelling is part of a multi-unit or dual occupany development, then Council approval is required;
* the tree is dead or dying and has become dangerous in the opinion of a suitably qualified person;
* the tree is less than 5 metres in height and has a trunk circumference of less than 0.5m or a diameter of 16cm measured at 1metre above ground level.
* you have been issued with a notice to clear fire hazards, specifically referring to trees;
* clearance of electricity lines is required (only the minimum to keep the line clear);
* you wish to prune a tree for regeneration or ornamental shaping;
* a valid permit has been issued as part of a planning permit. If a landscape plan has been approved previously for the site, an amended landscape plan should be submitted to the Planning Department for approval.


I am on a subdivided block and the landscape plans when it was subdivided show that this tree was to be retained. I have been told by the council I can submit an amended landscape plan but they have practically already told me it won't be approved.

Done it

Sure can be, up to $110,000 plus here.Parramatta City Council


Quite a few big ones around here in the last few years. A couple in Holroyd over $10,000.

Eric Frei

Here's a previous case.

Axing anger grows: church faces hefty fines - Local News - News - General - Maroondah Journal
Call for hefty fines to root out tree-loppers - Local News - News - General - Maroondah Journal

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Therrin

"lungs of the earth" wow. Tree-hug much?

"...the tree cover we are so fortunate to have inherited in this region. "

Right up to the point it drops a limb on your house, then how fortunate are you?


Sounds like the fines are getting pretty hefty. Maybe you could post a picture of a hypothetical situation where a tree might be too close, and what condition a tree like that might be in.

dov

Hmmm. Ever heard of ring-barking or poison? Just hypothetically of course...

GR1971

Thanks everyone, especially Ekka. Those stories were very interesting. I wonder if the maximum fine is still only $1000.00? I had a feeling it may have been much more than that. I have just emailed the Department of Planning and Development asking them to confirm if it is still $1000.00.

Eric Frei

Had a guy here top a protected gum tree, it then had to be removed.

Although the max fine was like $63K+ they only dished out some $375 spot fine.

Why?

Because beyond that it's a court case and that's all they can fine on the spot, so I told the council lady that next time I'll just add $375 to the removal quote rather than walk away a tree hugging hero. (in jest of course).

Read about it here.

Exposing another shame file

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xylem09

Why do you want to remove the tree anyway?

GR1971

Too close too house, roots block my sewers have to have them bored out every couple of years, impossible to keep gutters clean, lifting and damaging paving, potential of damage in storms from dropping branches, cracks in brickwork and damage around windows, complaints from neighbours etc etc etc. It's a lovely tree but doesn't belong 3 metres from my house. People need to use some common sense where they plant these things.

Jeff Darby

I would appeal their decision, citing the recent south coast event where a man lost his life after they refused to let him remove his tree. This is one event I can think of in nsw, there must be more in your area...do some reseach, breaking the law is not a good option.Get your facts and present them with the appeal.

In your appeal state that you intend to replant 4 natives trees in it's place.

This is a good way to handle this and stay within the law.

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Member: Australian Tree Association

Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard !

Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

© Jeffrey J Darby 2011

GR1971

Hi JayD. Thanks for the suggestion. Yes I do have to show a proposed amendment so 4 native trees sounds good. They would be much more suitable for the spot. I have planted around 20 or so aussie native plants around my house recently so they would fit in nicely. You're right, I definitely want to do this legally if I can. I know if the council still won't budge I can refer the matter to VCAT so removal without a permit is definitely a final, final resort and hopefully it won't come to that! You wouldn't have a link to that south coast story at all would you? I would like to read about that. Thanks again.

Apocalypsse

Normally im against removals of the older natives that provide habitat and food but when its in the metro area too close to a house you have to draw the line. Appealing it will be your best course of action. If you want to offset the loss of the tree find someone who does native revegetation to give you a # of trees you would have to plant if you had it removed.

xylem09

Considered moving house?

GR1971

No, have you?

Done it

As much as I love trees some have to go.

This was not a good story. High Court to hear council damages case - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

You can see more here, Tree World link. Shoalhaven LGA, N.S.W, Australia

xylem09

Sounds very familiar!
A typical NIMBY statement

"Too close too house, roots block my sewers have to have them bored out every couple of years, impossible to keep gutters clean, lifting and damaging paving, potential of damage in storms from dropping branches, cracks in brickwork and damage around windows, complaints from neighbours etc etc etc It's a lovely tree but doesn't belong 3 metres from my house. People need to use some common sense where they plant these things."

How far away from your house is far enough?
If every person that cut down every tree for the same excuses that you have stated above would any tree be safe? How many would be left?

Heres a few problem solvers:
try gutter guard - a quality product will solve that one
lift small areas of pavers and shave problem roots then re-lay do this as needed
maybe remove pavers from around base of tree and use alternative ground covering
cracks around windows and walls are generally from natural soil movement - age of building, construction type and soil type are most likely causal factors
complaints from neighbours are simple - council has denied request for removal
Was the tree planted or self seeded? When did it become problem? before you bought the house or just recently?

In the end your decision affects the greater community/s that live under, in and around the tree (including animals). Decide wisely for all parties sakes.

Check out the LGTRA website for further info on Council issues and penatlies
In the News

Done it

Ha, I've posted about that Jackaranda before. They called me to do it and I wouldn't until they had council permission.

It's a long story, Holroyd Resident Fined For Illegal Lopping Of Tree

It's not all there. They also bashed the owner when he arrived.

I found it, Tree lopper fined.

GR1971

And the potential damage from dropped branches...what is your solution for that one?
It's a huge gum tree only 3 metres from the house for god's sake. You can't honestly believe that it should be there can you? Have you never seen trees falling on houses during storms or dropping branches? Why do a lot of councils have a 3 metre exemption rule? Pretty obvious I would have thought!

GR1971

http://www.archicentre.com.au/Crackbrick08.pdf

Xylem09: An interesting link for you to read!

Eric Frei

I think the cost of moving and associated sale of house and mortgage discharge and re-application costs would be less than the fine.

There's been plenty of debate about this before, but in my experience you are wasting your breath on tree huggers. Right now you can feel a few nipping at you, none really give a stuff about you or your home ... they only care about arguing for the trees.

Tree Nazis

Now to prove how naive most tree huggers are in New Farm Park here they spent over $90K diagnosing trees trying to prevent further removals, every man and his dog was in their consulting with their specialist gear but the trees continued to fall like dominoes. The fact is no-one can guarantee the tree, no-one will give you that, they'll say stuff like "it appears sound and no structural defects". By the way I just added a pic of the latest failure at New Farm Park that went under the radar, it's becoming the best covert cover up of tree mismanagement this place has seen. Fact is all the tools and diagnostic equipment cannot provide you a rock solid guarantee especially as perfectly healthy fine specimens fail too.

Then we have our own Brisbane storm thread here.
http://www.treeworld.info/f36/ekka-y...orms-5735.html

Does it matter how good your tree is if one of them hit? Nope. But they will argue until the day they die, my point is about choice, if you choose not to have the tree then so be it.

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Tilia

one suggestion- is 'crown reduction' a possibility. reduces sail area and branch weight.

Therrin

site-unseen I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.

Righto, its pretty clear that to SOME people, the life of the tree is more important than the life/saftey of this man's family and neighbors. Selling the house only leaves the potential deadly/serious injury problem for someone else to hassle with. Maybe this person LIKES his house/neighborhood?
And consideringing the amount of planting he's said that he's done, and the clear welcoming of the idea of planting native trees in its place, its clear that he's not against trees in general.

Xylem09, are you suggesting that it is better for this tree to remain, than for 4 new lives to spring up from the netherworld and take its place as living creatures???

stjawa

The old days of removing the tree and paying the fine are just about gone unless you have very deep pockets.Most councils now dish out fines in the thousands and have an open book on how much they can fine you.In our council they also fine everyone involved in the removal including all contractors and their subcontractors and all are fined the same amount as the owner!!!
Therfore if the same ruling applies to your council you will have a problem getting anyone to do the removal without a permit.Anyone reputable with a brain that is.
A most obvious concern of course is the safety element of a large tree so close to a building.For piece of mind and future referance,I would get a qualified arborist to do a extensive report on the tree ASAP.If he/she reports any safety risks associated with the tree so close to the house you can use it when dealing with the council.
If you really want the council to take any notice you need to use the safety aspect of the tree.You can draw up a letter yourself but a solicitors letter usally shows the council you mean buisness.If there is any safety risks involved with the tree and the council will not give a permit for removal a good solicitor can really give them a hard time ie:if they wont give a permit then they may be liable for the safety aspect of the tree in the future.
You also mentioned blocked drains this could be a health risk.Something else you could use as an argument with the council.

So if you want to deal with your council and maybe get anyware.

Use profesionals to put forward a strong argument.
Document every dealing with the council vigorously including phone calls.
Always deal with them in a polite and respectful manner if you piss them off you will be in for a long ride.

Good luck ,hope you have lots of patience.

GR1971

Well this is the response I got from Department of Planning and Environment when I enquired about the fine:

As the removal of the tree as referred to in your e-mail requires a planning permit, any infringement will be issued under the provisions of the Planning and Environment Act 1987.

The penalty under the Planning and Environment Act 1987 is 5 penalty units, which in total is $584.10. However, in addition to this, it is understood that the Maroondah City Council has a policy to require the property owner to replace each tree removed without a planning permit with two or three trees of the same species. The Council may also require the replacement of the tree in the same location.

In more serious cases, the Council may take action against the property owner in the Magistrates Court.


That would be great wouldn't it, having to plant 3 more of the buggers as replacements!
This is still a very final resort though. I will be pursuing every option before I even consider that. Thanks to everyone (well...mostly everyone ) for their opinions and suggestions. I will prepare my "amended plan" firstly with the proposal to plant several native trees as replacements. I was thinking of wattles, callistemons etc. I will visit some native nurseries and see what there is. Nothing too big though! Then if that fails looks like it's off to VCAT or a solicitor.

Eric Frei

A few years back there was a large protected Spotty gum, a real monster in the backyard of a large property at Kenmore.

The tree dropped a huge limb that smashed the hell out of the pool area, the impact of the limb onto the pool split the pipes. Damage was some $15K and the insurance company forked out.

A month later we were back, another large limb just fell, more damage.

We weren't allowed to remove the tree, it was protected.

The insurance company sent a letter to the home-owner stating any further damage resulting from the tree (regardless of circumstances/ storms or otherwise) was excluded from cover.

The customer faxed that letter to Brisbane City Council and within days approval for removal was granted.

Sometimes it all has little to do with the tree and a lot to do with who asks and how.


Just recently we have seen NZ toss out tree protection rules, just like that out fo the blue.

Some councils like Shoalhaven changed their regulations so that any trees within striking distance are excluded from protection orders, in other words they let people decide what they want.

For most parts here the trees which people want gone a large gum trees, not some nice Birch, oak or elm but a big gum tree. People feel forced to live with it. As arborists we need some reasoning to remove the tree, we need to have some evidence why it has to go, and in the matrix of solutions to tree problems removal is considered the final option .... so it gets pretty darn hard to remove them on a whim because you dont like it etc.

Hornsby Council Refuses Tree Removal Request

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GR1971

Well I have submitted my application to the council today...fingers crossed.

Here a few photos of the tree in question. I finally figured out how to resize them so they would upload! Does anyone know what species of gum this is?

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