how much is that doggy in the window?

treestyle · 20th November 2007, 02:10 AM

hi,

is there some set formula used to work out the actual monetary value of a tree?

we all know that too often the tree is worth nothing and the that the gutter is worth more.

it would great to say "well that bit of concrete is worth $500, but that tree is worth $5000.

heaps of input would be great!

Thanks

Sean Freeman · 20th November 2007, 02:19 AM

Treestyle I think this has been dealt with in another thread but thats ok...BCC use and accept the revised Burnley trunk method, there is going to be an Australian standard for the valuation of amenity trees released probably around mid 08'. Other methods in common use are the draft australian standard, Thyer tree valuation method, and the Burnley Method.

They each have their pros and cons, but ultimately it comes down to the experience and ability of the person conducting the assessment, the subjective element has a massive impact on the outcome of the assessment no matter what method you use because they all incorporate subject assessments of the form, appearance, significance and health of the individual tree, within their calculations.

Eric might be able to put a link to the other thread I can't remember where it is I'm afraid.

treestyle · 20th November 2007, 02:29 AM

thanks Sean,

maybe i've gotta get with the times and be brave. i'm gonna use the search tool.

thanks!

Ekka · 20th November 2007, 02:52 AM

Here ya go

http://www.treeworld.info/f9/monetary-value-1008.html

treestyle · 20th November 2007, 03:34 AM

thanks Ek,

do you think that if oxygen is worth? $1 a kg and a tree makes? 1mil kg of oxygen a year then that tree for one year has produced an income of 1$mil on top of what it was already worth?

very subjective i suppose.

Ekka · 20th November 2007, 03:54 AM

The whole topic is subjective to me ... when was the last time anyone went to a tree auction and brought home a 50 tonne bargain.

The true value of something is usually decided by the laws of supply and demand ... trees seem exempt from that law unless in a nursery etc.

Some-one might say the tree adds $10k value to their home.

And the builder will say, yeah, piss it off and put a double auto rolladoor carport with covered entrance and lights to the house will add $25k

treestyle · 20th November 2007, 04:17 AM

very true,

i'm with LG, i'm at the bottom of the food chain.

basically here our significant historical and remnant trees are neglected.

every other department sees trees as a liabillity, there just something that cause damage to their asset. i'm trying at the moment to encourage the arb depart to collectively grow some balls and say NO the tree is an asset it's worth this much you move your concrete, or your powerline.

maybe i live in dreamland.

Sean Freeman · 20th November 2007, 11:42 AM

Treestyle you're not in dreamland, your an optomist and you are not alone there are a lot of us working for exactly the same outcome, some further apart than others (in more ways than one!

)
Little victories keep you going and the defeats only serve to help improve the approach next time.......I understand the problems engineers have with trees I really do, but I'm past knocking heads with them there are ways trees and built infrastructure can coexist even in extremely problematic circumstances.

treestyle · 21st November 2007, 12:16 AM

thanks Sean, some encouraging words.

Ekka · 21st November 2007, 01:55 AM

OK, here's real world situation.

Bloke rungs up out of the blue ...

Bloke: "I need a tree report to get rid of a tree I've been told by BCC"

Me: "is the tree protected and what is the purpose of the report etc?"

Bloke: "Well, it's a poinciana tree on a vacant block on one side but I dont want it and you know, could fall on the house"

Me: "Is the tree in good health?"

Bloke: "yeah, nothing wrong with it but I wanna build etc and it mucks up my plans"

Me: "If it's healthy and a species with low risk of storm damage as it's not a 100' gum tree etc how am I supposed to condemn it for removal when it's supposed to be saved?"

Bloke: "well, I just gotta get an arborist report to get rid of it i was told"

Me: "Will you be building over it etc?"

Bloke: "No, it's down the back and off to one side but I dont want it there as I want to landscape and stuff"

------------------------

Anyway, you can see the merry go round, needless to say I didnt do a report and declined ... he was insistent so I gave him my email but he never emailed the plans I asked for.

Fact is the whole process is up the shit. Is BCC protecting trees? Nope, not if they say just get an arborist report to get rid of it? LIKE

I have done a few where I dont even assess the tree, it's all about where the building is going and the tree wont survive ... so what's the bloody good of it?

If you watch the treeworld commercial carefully you'll see a report where the trees are right on the proposed excavation (shown in red) ... everyone makes like they're not there and no-one designs around them well. Then get an arborist report to get rid of it.

Certainly defies what I have learned.

Sean Freeman · 21st November 2007, 02:22 AM

Eric the real problem is the process of approvals in Qld, if you are not altering the usage of your property lets say merely extending the building, then the process can and often falls under building approvals...BA's...now due to the massive pressure on council officers (too many applications not enough people or hours in the day) BA's are more often than hot self assessed...no officer has to visit the site unless someone formaly opposes the building or reports a breach of some sort...so the owner self assesses, BCC know from their records there's a protected tree on site so throw the BA back saying you need an Arborist's report on the tree, as thats in their proceedures.

Self-assessed BA's are a real problem in more ways than just trees mate believe me!

When its a new development or change of usage then its a Development Application DA, and it should follow a much more closely monitored protocol...doesn't always but should.

Many of the tree officers and compliance officers I have met from down your way are very much like us in their desire to retain and protect suitable trees in urban areas, they are over stretched and messed around just as much as you or me by property owners and bulders who don't tell the truth, or act like they know what is going on when they really don't.

I'm not denying your experience just saying its not black and white, and some major bits of local legislation are not helping properly manage trees on building sites, but trust me we are not the only ones who recognise this fact.

Ekka · 21st November 2007, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

BCC know from their records there's a protected tree on site so throw the BA back saying you need an Arborist's report on the tree, as thats in their proceedures.

So what the hell are you going to write, the tree is fine and dandy and you should stay 7m away plus care for it and protect it during construction etc or "yeah, she'll be cactus after they're done here might as well get rid of it?"

I thought having a protected tree meant designing around it to save it, might as well say ... protected trees on house sites are no longer protected and do the hell what you want.

Just stupid to me, they should be asking if the tree is suitably located (proving health etc OK) to design around. The report should be giving them information relating to the SULE of the tree. So if the tree is smack bang in the middle of a 500m2 block where a house is having to go then it doesnt matter a crapper what it is or how good it is ... it has to go so a house can be built.

Are you getting my drift?

treestyle · 21st November 2007, 11:59 PM

how about having a significant tree register held and updated by the environmental services department, this register is near impossible to access and it has not even been given to the arb department. what you reckon bout that?

Ekka · 22nd November 2007, 12:34 AM

Yeah, it's dumb alright. It's like a top secret that you cant get on the net.

All roads lead to Rome should be the motto, one database for all trees that are protected so people like us can access. In there they can have the categories of protection.

But we're talking govt and depts and federal/state etc.

Have a look at what happened when BCC had VPO's on a State Govt school, QBuild just butcher the trees (or their dumb assed contractors) and the council cant do shit.

I even got on to the dept of natural resources who got bugger all to say coz their VPO's are different to BCC's and they dont give a crap about individual trees per se'

What we have is a segmented management system that frankly needs a good overhaul for the trees sake.

Why if there's protected trees on a development site do they even allow subdivision so those trees end up disected onto 500m2 lots where then they end up in the middle of some-ones lounge room so the tree must go? That's just dumb.

The reason why all this happens is because right fromt he start no-one recognizes protection zones (radius) or the implications and designs around them.

TrevMcRev · 22nd November 2007, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

The reason why all this happens is because right fromt he start no-one recognizes protection zones (radius) or the implications and designs around them.

Similar stupidity goes on down here too. The same Councils that carry on about permits needed for pruning 1 branch on a tree are approving development of normal house blocks into 3 townhouses sometimes leaving large mature trees within 2 metres of a new house not to mention the new driveway and everything else that goes on. The designers solution: 2m deep root barrier right up against the trunk of the tree!

treestyle · 22nd November 2007, 03:17 AM

i'm in the process of rocking the boat. Just hope i don't sink with her.

20th November 2007, 02:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	how much is that doggy in the window? hi, is there some set formula used to work out the actual monetary value of a tree? we all know that too often the tree is worth nothing and the that the gutter is worth more. it would great to say "well that bit of concrete is worth $500, but that tree is worth $5000. heaps of input would be great! Thanks

20th November 2007, 02:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? Treestyle I think this has been dealt with in another thread but thats ok...BCC use and accept the revised Burnley trunk method, there is going to be an Australian standard for the valuation of amenity trees released probably around mid 08'. Other methods in common use are the draft australian standard, Thyer tree valuation method, and the Burnley Method. They each have their pros and cons, but ultimately it comes down to the experience and ability of the person conducting the assessment, the subjective element has a massive impact on the outcome of the assessment no matter what method you use because they all incorporate subject assessments of the form, appearance, significance and health of the individual tree, within their calculations. Eric might be able to put a link to the other thread I can't remember where it is I'm afraid. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

20th November 2007, 02:52 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? Here ya go http://www.treeworld.info/f9/monetary-value-1008.html __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th November 2007, 03:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? thanks Ek, do you think that if oxygen is worth? $1 a kg and a tree makes? 1mil kg of oxygen a year then that tree for one year has produced an income of 1$mil on top of what it was already worth? very subjective i suppose.

20th November 2007, 03:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? The whole topic is subjective to me ... when was the last time anyone went to a tree auction and brought home a 50 tonne bargain. The true value of something is usually decided by the laws of supply and demand ... trees seem exempt from that law unless in a nursery etc. Some-one might say the tree adds $10k value to their home. And the builder will say, yeah, piss it off and put a double auto rolladoor carport with covered entrance and lights to the house will add $25k __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th November 2007, 02:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	thanks Sean, maybe i've gotta get with the times and be brave. i'm gonna use the search tool. thanks!

20th November 2007, 04:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? very true, i'm with LG, i'm at the bottom of the food chain. basically here our significant historical and remnant trees are neglected. every other department sees trees as a liabillity, there just something that cause damage to their asset. i'm trying at the moment to encourage the arb depart to collectively grow some balls and say NO the tree is an asset it's worth this much you move your concrete, or your powerline. maybe i live in dreamland.

20th November 2007, 11:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? Treestyle you're not in dreamland, your an optomist and you are not alone there are a lot of us working for exactly the same outcome, some further apart than others (in more ways than one!) Little victories keep you going and the defeats only serve to help improve the approach next time.......I understand the problems engineers have with trees I really do, but I'm past knocking heads with them there are ways trees and built infrastructure can coexist even in extremely problematic circumstances. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

21st November 2007, 12:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? thanks Sean, some encouraging words.

21st November 2007, 01:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? OK, here's real world situation. Bloke rungs up out of the blue ... Bloke: "I need a tree report to get rid of a tree I've been told by BCC" Me: "is the tree protected and what is the purpose of the report etc?" Bloke: "Well, it's a poinciana tree on a vacant block on one side but I dont want it and you know, could fall on the house" Me: "Is the tree in good health?" Bloke: "yeah, nothing wrong with it but I wanna build etc and it mucks up my plans" Me: "If it's healthy and a species with low risk of storm damage as it's not a 100' gum tree etc how am I supposed to condemn it for removal when it's supposed to be saved?" Bloke: "well, I just gotta get an arborist report to get rid of it i was told" Me: "Will you be building over it etc?" Bloke: "No, it's down the back and off to one side but I dont want it there as I want to landscape and stuff" ------------------------ Anyway, you can see the merry go round, needless to say I didnt do a report and declined ... he was insistent so I gave him my email but he never emailed the plans I asked for. Fact is the whole process is up the shit. Is BCC protecting trees? Nope, not if they say just get an arborist report to get rid of it? LIKE I have done a few where I dont even assess the tree, it's all about where the building is going and the tree wont survive ... so what's the bloody good of it? If you watch the treeworld commercial carefully you'll see a report where the trees are right on the proposed excavation (shown in red) ... everyone makes like they're not there and no-one designs around them well. Then get an arborist report to get rid of it. Certainly defies what I have learned. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

21st November 2007, 02:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,643	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? Eric the real problem is the process of approvals in Qld, if you are not altering the usage of your property lets say merely extending the building, then the process can and often falls under building approvals...BA's...now due to the massive pressure on council officers (too many applications not enough people or hours in the day) BA's are more often than hot self assessed...no officer has to visit the site unless someone formaly opposes the building or reports a breach of some sort...so the owner self assesses, BCC know from their records there's a protected tree on site so throw the BA back saying you need an Arborist's report on the tree, as thats in their proceedures. Self-assessed BA's are a real problem in more ways than just trees mate believe me! When its a new development or change of usage then its a Development Application DA, and it should follow a much more closely monitored protocol...doesn't always but should. Many of the tree officers and compliance officers I have met from down your way are very much like us in their desire to retain and protect suitable trees in urban areas, they are over stretched and messed around just as much as you or me by property owners and bulders who don't tell the truth, or act like they know what is going on when they really don't. I'm not denying your experience just saying its not black and white, and some major bits of local legislation are not helping properly manage trees on building sites, but trust me we are not the only ones who recognise this fact. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

21st November 2007, 11:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? how about having a significant tree register held and updated by the environmental services department, this register is near impossible to access and it has not even been given to the arb department. what you reckon bout that?

22nd November 2007, 12:34 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,846	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? Yeah, it's dumb alright. It's like a top secret that you cant get on the net. All roads lead to Rome should be the motto, one database for all trees that are protected so people like us can access. In there they can have the categories of protection. But we're talking govt and depts and federal/state etc. Have a look at what happened when BCC had VPO's on a State Govt school, QBuild just butcher the trees (or their dumb assed contractors) and the council cant do shit. I even got on to the dept of natural resources who got bugger all to say coz their VPO's are different to BCC's and they dont give a crap about individual trees per se' What we have is a segmented management system that frankly needs a good overhaul for the trees sake. Why if there's protected trees on a development site do they even allow subdivision so those trees end up disected onto 500m2 lots where then they end up in the middle of some-ones lounge room so the tree must go? That's just dumb. The reason why all this happens is because right fromt he start no-one recognizes protection zones (radius) or the implications and designs around them. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

22nd November 2007, 03:17 AM	#16 (permalink)
treestyle Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: North Brisbane Posts: 128	Re: how much is that doggy in the window? i'm in the process of rocking the boat. Just hope i don't sink with her.