Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon

mdvaden · 28th August 2007, 04:45 PM

Recently, I learned that a Tree Service in Jacksonville, Oregon, suggested to remove a Catalpa at the historic "Beekman House". I don't think its slated to come down yet, and they would still need to "run it by" the City of Jacksonville, which requires permits. I was asked (by someone with an important interest) to look at the tree for a second opinion.

When I was out there, after about 10 minutes, one thing was very clear, if I bought the house and it was my place, 100% I would keep the tree without one worry of it falling over. That's provided it can be maintained, pruned and the soil aerated. Maybe even remove some sod around it. If photos of the historic house could prove that it has leaned over more in just the past 5 to 10 years, I'd begin to think differently.

The soil is raised opposite the lean, but I've seen that before with several trees that were easily salvageable with correction of soil conditions. There are a few wounds on the tree, that are minor in comparison to it's size. The lower right limb that was stubbed-off once, and points toward and under the power lines, may have been a leader once, or may have been a limb. With that tree, either is possible. It's in one of the images. It is missing a strip of bark along the top, maybe 6' long. There is a lot of good wood and tissue on it, and without massive weight on it, I'd prefer to keep it for now, rather than make a huge cut at the main trunk to remove it.

The vine farthest from the tree is totally dead and can be removed. It's partially embedded into the big low limb, but most of it can be worked away. The other vine, I'd remove at least 50% of it's height. In this situation, some of it may have to remain if possible, due to the "artifact" matter. The vine is historic as is the tree. The image with the trumpet vine flower is just to show that the tree has good vigour and is closing over a cut nicely. May have been from the other tree service, or the power line clearing company. Anyhow, this is a tree I looked at today, and about all I can say at this moment, is that I'd be very happy to work on it if it was mine.

But I'm going to see if the person who called me can find images of the house from the street, showing the angle of the tree - maybe 10 years ago, 30 years ago, or 70 years ago. Either way, I'm interested see if the tree's lean can be pin-pointed to a certain year. Almost forgot - apparently, recommendation for removal by the other service is based on "root damage". The one dead root in the image is the only visible one like it. All the bark, tissue and flare of the tree trunk look normal. Unless someone has seen the area when excavated, I suspect that the damaged surface root may be the only one that's dead. There really are no surface roots around the whole tree. None can be felt under the sod when walking around it.

Ekka · 28th August 2007, 06:49 PM

Can you please load up the full size pic of the 3rd one down ... like 2000px wide size but keep file size under 1mb.

I'd like to have a good look over that pic.

mdvaden · 28th August 2007, 07:05 PM

Likely tomorrow for a bigger #3. I shut down my desktop computer for the night, and am lounging on our bed.

There is hardly any deadwood at all in the tree, but I suspect that you wanted to see other stuff like the trunk and limbs, etc..

mdvaden · 29th August 2007, 08:36 AM

This should be the same image. I cropped the sides a bit to keep the file smaller. I left some building for a reference. The tree is hard to see into in the lower half, without standing under and around it. One way to deal with this tree given its historic value, might be to do some light pruning and get a lot of the vine out, then reconsider condition.

There's something about the branch angles and arrangement in the upper 35 feet that seems to be saying "we have not leaned in over 20 years".

Ekka · 29th August 2007, 02:30 PM

You could go for the old prop on the fence side.

The straight vertical leader looks good. Those other 2 large ones going over the fence look bad with little opportunity to target cut.

I would consider reducing them to something, even a small shoot/branch, then if it resprouts like one of those pics knock off all but maybe 2 good ones and then keep them reduced to. They'll feed to branch.

Too big a wound to take them off back to the trunk, and no need for a rot there.

Also, here's a prop idea from another thread/forum where "experts" would rather install a substandard prop and cut the tree for ever till it's a knee high topiary.

In this pic the red lins is about where I'd be trying to reduce to those leaders ... look for something to cut back to around there. The yellow is maybe a prop zone but the fence is an issue unless of course the fence is modified to become part of the prop.

Mario, one last thing, thinning has be proven to take a lot longer for the tree to replace the floliage density ... thin the top out to reduce wind force. Maybe 20%.

groundpounder · 30th August 2007, 05:48 AM

Failure potential + Size of part + Target rating = Hazard rating

The failure potential is certainly there, but unless someone was having a picnic in a blizzard in July directly in the path of the leaning trunk, it appears from the pics that the size of the part that could fail and the potential target would not justify removal. Would be a shame to remove a historic tree because it could break a fence. Maybe the initial arborist was in a hurry to get to his next stop.

Although I have done some limb propping, I would not recommend trunk propping unless the target rating is very low and the part size at altitude is not large. Should sufficient force be applied to the upper crown at a 90 degree angle to the prop, failure could occur as if the prop were not there. Worse yet, it could send the tree off in a direction that was not anticipated.

mdvaden · 30th August 2007, 08:42 AM

I think Ekka was kidding about the propping.

But a photo on someone's website yesterday gave me an idea for something to try someday elsewhere, even just for the "heck of it".

I thought I saw two smaller trees used as braces, but could not tell.

If you could buy a couple of trees of the same species, that were tall, I suspect that its possible to graft the tips of the leaders to a strong limb or branch of the tree, and let it bond for additional support that would increase each year.

If this historic tree became a lost artifact, that would make two lost artifacts, as the vine on it apparently was planted by one of the family that used to live in the house from days gone by.

If there was a way to cosmetically install it, and not "bugger up" the roots, I'd consider pouring a 1 to 2 cubic yard block of concrete in the ground and running a cable up the tree about 2/3's of the way for extra support. But it may not even need the support as much as some nice pruning and soil prep like sod removal.

groundpounder · 30th August 2007, 06:34 PM

Don't know if Eric was kidding or not. I've seen it done.

Very interesting concept in grafting saplings for support. Let me know if you ever get the chance to try it. I have seen grafting used to bridge a girdling injury, but never as support.
Since there are few historic trees in Denver, my strategy is usually to remove the junk and start over. I'm not one to advocate putting a tuxedo on a turd. I am impressed that your person of important interest had the sense to ask for a second opinion. Very rare in my world. I wish you luck in the preservation of this tree.

Instead of concrete we use these http://karlkuemmmerling.com/prod15.htm
Have pulled up and anchored some pretty hefty pines with them. Just need to make sure there is no decay present near the anchor point in the tree.

pomme · 31st August 2007, 02:16 AM

upper canopy does look a bit sparce. where in your growing season are you? catalpas i have encountered have always had a broad and full conopy. structurally it seems the lean was happened a good while ago as the stem appears to grown upright

Ekka · 31st August 2007, 03:02 AM

Those ground anchors are great, and bloody cheap!

The 5000lb one was under $30

groundpounder · 1st September 2007, 04:20 AM

Two "M's" are good, three has to be better, right? Sorry bout that.
They are great for the right application. We use a Klein Haven's grip with a come along to pull the tree up if needed and finish the ends with Tree Grips. Tree Cabling Equipment
I guess I should also mention that it might be a good idea to get a utility locate done if your area has under ground electric lines. We learned this one the hard way. No one hurt but knocked out the power to a five block area.

mdvaden · 21st September 2007, 11:37 PM

Well, heard back.

The historical society director gave a go-ahead to start some preliminary work on the tree.

I'm going to start at ground level and work up.

- check the soil condition
- remove as much of the dead embedded vine as possible
- going to save the big abused lower limb
- light thinning
- some reduction of the remaining vine

I think that as some crud is removed from this tree, it will become easier to figure out whats what.

Nothing major this time, just removing the worst stuff and plan the next move.

Considering an increment borer to date the tree and see a fragment of its interior.

Ekka · 21st September 2007, 11:57 PM

Good on you Mario, that's good news.

Keep us updated on how it's going.

OsAGe85 · 23rd September 2007, 02:16 PM

Im excited to see what you do with it Mario. Post some pics asap.

mdvaden · 24th September 2007, 06:51 PM

28th August 2007, 06:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Can you please load up the full size pic of the 3rd one down ... like 2000px wide size but keep file size under 1mb. I'd like to have a good look over that pic. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

28th August 2007, 07:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	Likely tomorrow for a bigger #3. I shut down my desktop computer for the night, and am lounging on our bed. There is hardly any deadwood at all in the tree, but I suspect that you wanted to see other stuff like the trunk and limbs, etc.. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

30th August 2007, 08:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	I think Ekka was kidding about the propping. But a photo on someone's website yesterday gave me an idea for something to try someday elsewhere, even just for the "heck of it". I thought I saw two smaller trees used as braces, but could not tell. If you could buy a couple of trees of the same species, that were tall, I suspect that its possible to graft the tips of the leaders to a strong limb or branch of the tree, and let it bond for additional support that would increase each year. If this historic tree became a lost artifact, that would make two lost artifacts, as the vine on it apparently was planted by one of the family that used to live in the house from days gone by. If there was a way to cosmetically install it, and not "bugger up" the roots, I'd consider pouring a 1 to 2 cubic yard block of concrete in the ground and running a cable up the tree about 2/3's of the way for extra support. But it may not even need the support as much as some nice pruning and soil prep like sod removal. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

31st August 2007, 03:02 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Those ground anchors are great, and bloody cheap! The 5000lb one was under $30 __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st September 2007, 04:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
groundpounder Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Centennial Co. Posts: 21	Re: Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon Two "M's" are good, three has to be better, right? Sorry bout that. They are great for the right application. We use a Klein Haven's grip with a come along to pull the tree up if needed and finish the ends with Tree Grips. Tree Cabling Equipment I guess I should also mention that it might be a good idea to get a utility locate done if your area has under ground electric lines. We learned this one the hard way. No one hurt but knocked out the power to a five block area.

30th August 2007, 05:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
groundpounder Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Centennial Co. Posts: 21	Failure potential + Size of part + Target rating = Hazard rating The failure potential is certainly there, but unless someone was having a picnic in a blizzard in July directly in the path of the leaning trunk, it appears from the pics that the size of the part that could fail and the potential target would not justify removal. Would be a shame to remove a historic tree because it could break a fence. Maybe the initial arborist was in a hurry to get to his next stop. Although I have done some limb propping, I would not recommend trunk propping unless the target rating is very low and the part size at altitude is not large. Should sufficient force be applied to the upper crown at a 90 degree angle to the prop, failure could occur as if the prop were not there. Worse yet, it could send the tree off in a direction that was not anticipated.

30th August 2007, 06:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
groundpounder Sappling Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Centennial Co. Posts: 21	Don't know if Eric was kidding or not. I've seen it done. Very interesting concept in grafting saplings for support. Let me know if you ever get the chance to try it. I have seen grafting used to bridge a girdling injury, but never as support. Since there are few historic trees in Denver, my strategy is usually to remove the junk and start over. I'm not one to advocate putting a tuxedo on a turd. I am impressed that your person of important interest had the sense to ask for a second opinion. Very rare in my world. I wish you luck in the preservation of this tree. Instead of concrete we use these http://karlkuemmmerling.com/prod15.htm Have pulled up and anchored some pretty hefty pines with them. Just need to make sure there is no decay present near the anchor point in the tree.

31st August 2007, 02:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
pomme Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: england Posts: 220	upper canopy does look a bit sparce. where in your growing season are you? catalpas i have encountered have always had a broad and full conopy. structurally it seems the lean was happened a good while ago as the stem appears to grown upright

21st September 2007, 11:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	Re: Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon Well, heard back. The historical society director gave a go-ahead to start some preliminary work on the tree. I'm going to start at ground level and work up. - check the soil condition - remove as much of the dead embedded vine as possible - going to save the big abused lower limb - light thinning - some reduction of the remaining vine I think that as some crud is removed from this tree, it will become easier to figure out whats what. Nothing major this time, just removing the worst stuff and plan the next move. Considering an increment borer to date the tree and see a fragment of its interior. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

21st September 2007, 11:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon Good on you Mario, that's good news. Keep us updated on how it's going. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

23rd September 2007, 02:16 PM	#14 (permalink)
OsAGe85 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Littlerock Arkansas US Posts: 66	Re: Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon Im excited to see what you do with it Mario. Post some pics asap. __________________ Gotta love the smell 2 stroke and wood chips. Be smart, be safe.

24th September 2007, 06:51 PM	#15 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 543	Re: Historic Artifact: Catalpa in Jacksonville, Oregon