Help from our friends in the US

shaggs · 9th November 2007, 01:16 AM

I love how they react to the $AUD like the petrol stations do. According to them it takes a month for the flow on effect, but goes straight back up immediately.
I'm all for supporting my local bloke too. But however good MY customers are, it's a big ask for them to fork out $900 more on top of a $500 tree just because I'm local. For the exact same service, they would go with the $500 bloke....I would.

playfordtree · 9th November 2007, 03:50 PM

They are all sound arguements,

But lets take it one step further.

If we have no qualms about buying cheap stuff offshore and not supporting our local economy.

Then it should follow that we can't complain when our neighbours use cheap offshore labour ( islanders ) to cut down their tree, instead of using their local bloke, YOU!

Maybe the neighbour needed to buy new bikes as well?

Just for the record i have 4 kids
Thats a lot of bikes,chips,toothpaste.

Sean Freeman · 9th November 2007, 06:01 PM

Playfordtree I'm not disagreeing with your argument to use local Oz companies, but your analogy with the Islanders doesn't work since they are not qualified, or (it would seem) insured or (most likely) properly payed for their labour....compared to Eric apples and torque wrench...Not the same as buying offshore from a Stihl dealer in US instead of a Stihl dealer here...apples for apples.

but as i said I agree with the spending extra here though I wouldn't push the angle too hard that Stihl are ploughing their profits into Oz.

Ekka · 9th November 2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

They are all sound arguements,

But lets take it one step further.

If we have no qualms about buying cheap stuff offshore and not supporting our local economy.

Then it should follow that we can't complain when our neighbours use cheap offshore labour ( islanders ) to cut down their tree, instead of using their local bloke, YOU!

First of all they are local too, they live here.

And like Sean said you are not comparing apples to apples, they are not trained, educated, insured or even paying tax! They are rogue operators, pikies, gypsies etc.

But the saws we are looking at identical product.

Now as far as buying imported products vs local ... tell me this, now that Dr Martens dumped England for China are the boots any cheaper? NO

When Blundstone dump Australia for China will the boots get cheaper? NO

All that happens, and the reason why they do it, is called more profit.

There was a big push 15 years ago ... buy Australian made etc, remember the commercials of people throwing their money into the ocean standing on top of a cliff at the beach? Buy local right?

But Stihls aren't made here. What's happened in Australia is we are just a dumping ground for imported product, and some people have set themselves up well to profit out of it.

There's some laws and regs pertaining to anti competative behaviour and exclusivity. I know recently within the last 10 years there were some ammendments made where competing retails could not import direct and had to go through one agency who was price fixing and monopolizing. Sounds a little like the Stihl business model eh?

Here's some things I found, the question and answer session is great isn't it.

Module 4

playfordtree · 10th November 2007, 06:32 PM

Gentleman,

allow me to clarify, i did not set out to question anyones patriotism.
Nor am i trying to make anyone feel guilty because they bought offshore.
(in all honesty, given half a chance i too would snap up a 200t for $500)
I am merely trying to illustrate that, when YOU make a saving, SOMEONE ELSE misses out, its just simple economics.

In my case that SOMEONE ELSE is my local bloke, who is a hard working Australian family man, like myself.

My guess is that most of the price difference would be due to import duties ie. TAX
As i said its only a guess, i haven't researched the price breakdown.
( if someone has the figures please post them, i always prefer the facts over an eduacated guess)
Now, if indeed the difference in price is mainly a TAX difference, then these are the same taxes that are used to pay for our roads,schools and hospitals.

We are one of the most highest taxing nations on the planet, but we also have one of the greatest countries in which to live,work and raise our families.
We also have a lifestyle that is second none, and surely the high level of taxes we pay have contributed to these facts.

Now regarding the issue of cheap Islander labour versus buying offshore,
gentlemen your arguements are flawed, allow me to explain why.

1- Yes they might live locally and spend some of their money here, but i am sure that like most new migrants they would also send a large proportion of their money back home to their families.

2- If they are uninsured, then they are also depriving our local insurance industry. (not that i love insurance companies btw)

3- If they are working "cash in hand" and not fulfilling their tax obligation, again they are short changing our community, as i illustrated above.

4- If they are unqualified, then again they have short changed our educational community, and denied future generations of tree workers the knowledge they would have gained.

So it is with these points i believe that my drawing an analogy between buying offshore and using cheap Islander labour is sound.
(although not perfect)

I hope this provokes some thought and debate.

Oh,

and just for the record,
i have never worked for an insurance company, the tax office or a stihl dealer.

Ekka · 10th November 2007, 07:45 PM

Playfordtree

The debate is great, I dont mind at all.

What does a Stihl retailer actually pays for a saw here?

What is the wholesale of that saw?

Now lets expand this a little.

Stihl have a factory called X.

X makes and sells saws in Germany. Simple right.

So wouldn't you think that whether I was buying from England, USA, NZ or Africa the factory X would have the same price!

But ahh, hang on, Stihl decide to supply a central store, they look after the distribution and freight to the country perhaps.

So when ringing factory X in Germany they say bugger off to your local country distribution centre.

Now you have X.NZ; X.Africa; X.USA etc

All of a sudden you have different prices now as Stihl decide the price into the country, and I assure you that price is not a cost price but another profit on top.

Now the funny part is, you can allegedly buy a retail USA saw cheaper than a wholesale Australian saw. And to make matters worse get it here including freight cheaper.... for a 1 off item!

So doesn't that raise alarm bells? A saw goes from Germany to USA in bulk, then retails and then to here cheaper than Stihl can supply.

Stihl are full of BS.

If USA can retail a ms200t for $500 they must be buying them for what, $250? So if I was a retailer I should be able to buy them off Stihl Germany for same and arrange my own freight ... like many other businesses do.

And what I sell that saw for depends on how my business is structured and located. Currently Stihl have a rrp system, which is unfair to remote areas or high profile shops who have higher overheads.

You know if you buy shoes at David Jones you'll pay more than K-Mart, even for the exact same shoe.

There's an element of anti competative behaviour here and price fixing for sure ... I have USA saws and have had them for some time, they're great!

But if they are different then why the secrecy? Why dont these Stihl people just open up? Because they have no argument strong enough to withstand their current pricing and practices. You honestly believe that Stihl make different saws for different countries within the same model number? I dont, sure some small things like air cleaners or bumper spikes, covers might change but the internal engine etc ... nope, I vote same thing.

Invite your Stihl bloke into the discussion, I bet he wont, they're sworn to secrecy and could have their dealership pulled ... dont forget, Stihl are Germans and some things haven't changed in a long long time.

Sean Freeman · 10th November 2007, 07:49 PM

You have kind of missed the point I was trying to make to you with regards your analogy, so I will try to rephrase the problems......

The product...chainsaw 020 is identical from US or from Oz (ok their may be very slight variations but none significant)
The dealership..Stihl identical in some very important economic senses, parent company offshore, manufacture offshore, r&d offshore. Yes the actual owner/operator of the premises is local to the area and they will invest a proportion of their profits into local economy.
The savings made by purchaser of saw will in all likelihood be invested in local goods and services (no guarentee sure)

The product....unskilled unknowledgeable hacking labour, damages not only the tree in question (not such a big deal with removals) but surrounding vegetation and built assets, reinforces the nonsense that this kind of crap work is acceptable in our communities today.....compared to Eric's work..please there's no comparison...THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME INDUSTRY.
(I don't really know what term you could use to describe the work that hackers do..malicious damage perhaps?)
The provider of the product (the labour) again do you really need me to draw comparisons?????
The savings...what savings?? who pays for the damages asociated with such substandard work? The owner for sure but we all do eventually.

Is the purchase of a foriegn designed built and imported product from a dealership in the US as opposed to a dealership down the road, comparable to the purchase of services(?) from hacks or an Arborist...simply because there is a (mistaken) view that $$$ savings are occuring in both...I don't think they are comparable, and I think it weakens your arguement to choose to use and then defend such a weak comparison to support what is actually quite a strong arguement about the importance of choosing where and how we each of us spend our hard earned.

Ekka · 10th November 2007, 08:05 PM

Poor ole Playfordtrees, he's a nice guy.

Hang in there mate, you'll be OK.

Good point Sean.

Then Ekka spends the difference on other things, maybe bikes for the kids for Christmas. (Prolly imported too!)

playfordtree · 10th November 2007, 10:07 PM

Eric,

is the retail price for stihl chainsaws set by Stihl?
or is it a % markup based on the wholesale price?
If so who sets the wholesale price?

If the wholesale price is different between the U.S. and Australia why is it different?
Is it different because Stihl say so?,
or is it different because our federal government has placed a large import duty upon the item?

As i said before i don't know the answer, it was just a guess that it's a federally imposed import tax that makes the difference.
Does the extra $$ go to Stihl, or into the federal revenue of our country?
I think we need some definitive proof!
Not just speculation.

As for differences in manufacture, i have no idea if they do or do not make the saws differently.
I was only going on what my local bloke told me ( he has never bullsh*tted to me before, but that doesn't mean that someone hasn't lied to him and he is just passing on what he believes to be true!)

I will be seeing him early this week so i will ask him these questions.

As for your last comment your not implying Germans are arrogant are you?

Regards Simon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sean,

I have never compared the work that Eric does with work carried out by the Islanders, please read my posts again.
I understand your anger at the work being carried out by these "hacks".
but unfortunatly,
they are in the same industry.
The big difference is obviously the quality of work performed.
It makes no difference whether you are a certified arborist with years of experience, or if you are fresh off the banana boat with a chainsaw and a prayer.
The Islanders are still service providers like you and me!
(they are just providers of very poor service)

The comparison i was making was,

if you are a customer who chooses to use the service of an unqualified, uninsured person who pays no tax.
You are probably doing so to save yourself money, unfortunatly the saving you make comes at a cost to your local service provider who is qualified,insured and pays his taxes.

It's the same if you buy your saws offshore, you are making a saving at the cost of your local dealer, it is irrelevant whether he is rich or poor.
Or whether the wholesale price he pays is different to his counterpart in the U.S.A.

Again, i am not trying to pass judgement on anybody as i am the first one to try and save a buck or two.
I am simply trying to point out the difference between Economics and Morality.

These are the same economic principles that big business and insurance companies use when they make everyday decisions concerning us.

For example;
James Hardy moving their operations offshore so they could try and avoid their obligations to their former workers who are suffering from asbestos related diseases.
Choice 1 - Moving offshore will cost them
Choice 2 - Staying in Australia and paying compensation will cost them

Their economists are the people who advise them which one of these decisions will cost them more!
It is then up to the board of James Hardy to make a decision on which way to go.
As a corporate company James Hardy have no obligation to make a decision based on morals.
They only have to appease their shareholders.
It was cheaper to move offshore, so thats what they did.

I hope this debate is all in good fun

Regards Simon.

a_lopa · 10th November 2007, 10:25 PM

Anyone want to chip in and get a container load sent over???

Ekka · 10th November 2007, 11:05 PM

Some interesting links.

Germany - Country information - Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

When buying over the internet

Customs Tariff HS2007

Importing Goods by Post

Please note, I have emailed customs to get some answers now the way I see it you only have to pay a small customs fee and 10%GST on the incoming.

Simon, even today when you address your boss or superior in Germany you use Herr Frei, not G'day Eric or even Herr Eric Frei ... lots of ingrained tradition and respect ... Japs similar.

Quote:

To: information@customs.gov.au
Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 5:08 PM
Subject: Importing from USA and Germany

Hi

I run a discussion forum and although we searched the net for information it was somewhat vague as to what exactly we could expect to be the costs of importing.

For the exercise please do not consider freight costs, however I realise from reading your site that the cost of freight and customs duty is included in the cost of the item then GST applied.

Anyway. We are looking at importing machinery, value over $10k

Questions for you. Please note that we are looking at COSTS not quarantine procedures etc.

1/ Is there any difference between importing from USA or Germany?

2/ Is there any difference importing new or second hand?

3/ What is the costs say if we were importing 50 chainsaws worth $25k from Germany?

4/ What is the costs if we were importing 50 chainsaws worth $25k from USA?

5/ What is the costs if we were importing a $35k new wood chipper from USA?

6/ What is the costs if we were importing a "clean as new" $20k chipper from USA?

If you have links to the answers please include them in your reply.

Regards
Eric Frei
www.treeworld.info

Quintrex · 10th November 2007, 11:11 PM

The Japs say Herr Frei?????

Sean Freeman · 10th November 2007, 11:30 PM

Simon, the debate is in good humour and if my use of capitals came across as OTT it probably was, sorry. I will state for about the hundreth time (in my life not on this forum!) Unqualified unskilled hacks and loppers are not in the same industry as me or any other properly trained and qualified Arborist adhering to our code of ethics. It is like comparing a qualified and licensed plumber to a bloke who knows how to change the washer in a tap....yes they both work with pipes water and fittings but that is where the similarity ends.

These blokes Eric filmed, I feel as much unhappiness for them as I do anyone else...they are exposed to the same (even more!) risk as I am when I climb and cut, but they have none of the advanages I have...insurance, training, quality gear and experience...not forgetting the support of an excellent groundie in Tim.

The more we percieve ourselves as being merely loppers who can read a bit or who have sat an exam or two the less progress will be made in the care and management of trees in this country. (And no I'm sure that's not what you were saying I'm making my own assertion here)

Arboriculture is not lopping or topping, loppers and toppers can become Arborists I know a few myself personally who are very ashamed of their past practices (though there is no shame in doing what you thought was the right thing back then) Arboriculture has a set of ethics and values trees in critical ways that ensure (as much as humanly possible) a long term perspective, more realistic to the continuation of all aspects of our natural environment, is applied to managing trees in the dramatically altered urban scene.

This is getting way off the original topic and I apologise for that, but to my mind none of you guys should be comparing yourselves to hacks, loppers or toppers..we can never hope to educate the general public at large if we ourselves don't understand why there is a difference between them and us and just what that difference is....and more importantly why it matters (and it aint $$$s!)

shaggs · 11th November 2007, 02:09 AM

Good one Eric. Straight the horses mouth again. The reply will be interesting as all our brains are now ticking over....
I wonder if stihl would get nervous at the influx of saws and POSSIBLY lower their price???

9th November 2007, 01:16 AM	#26 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: Help from our friends in the US I love how they react to the $AUD like the petrol stations do. According to them it takes a month for the flow on effect, but goes straight back up immediately. I'm all for supporting my local bloke too. But however good MY customers are, it's a big ask for them to fork out $900 more on top of a $500 tree just because I'm local. For the exact same service, they would go with the $500 bloke....I would.

9th November 2007, 03:50 PM	#27 (permalink)
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 340	Re: Help from our friends in the US They are all sound arguements, But lets take it one step further. If we have no qualms about buying cheap stuff offshore and not supporting our local economy. Then it should follow that we can't complain when our neighbours use cheap offshore labour ( islanders ) to cut down their tree, instead of using their local bloke, YOU! Maybe the neighbour needed to buy new bikes as well? Just for the record i have 4 kids Thats a lot of bikes,chips,toothpaste. __________________ I Drink Therefore I am.

9th November 2007, 06:01 PM	#28 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Help from our friends in the US Playfordtree I'm not disagreeing with your argument to use local Oz companies, but your analogy with the Islanders doesn't work since they are not qualified, or (it would seem) insured or (most likely) properly payed for their labour....compared to Eric apples and torque wrench...Not the same as buying offshore from a Stihl dealer in US instead of a Stihl dealer here...apples for apples. but as i said I agree with the spending extra here though I wouldn't push the angle too hard that Stihl are ploughing their profits into Oz. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran Last edited by Sean Freeman : 9th November 2007 at 08:14 PM. Reason: spelt "the" instead of "that" made no sense

10th November 2007, 06:32 PM	#30 (permalink)
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 340	Re: Help from our friends in the US Gentleman, allow me to clarify, i did not set out to question anyones patriotism. Nor am i trying to make anyone feel guilty because they bought offshore. (in all honesty, given half a chance i too would snap up a 200t for $500) I am merely trying to illustrate that, when YOU make a saving, SOMEONE ELSE misses out, its just simple economics. In my case that SOMEONE ELSE is my local bloke, who is a hard working Australian family man, like myself. My guess is that most of the price difference would be due to import duties ie. TAX As i said its only a guess, i haven't researched the price breakdown. ( if someone has the figures please post them, i always prefer the facts over an eduacated guess) Now, if indeed the difference in price is mainly a TAX difference, then these are the same taxes that are used to pay for our roads,schools and hospitals. We are one of the most highest taxing nations on the planet, but we also have one of the greatest countries in which to live,work and raise our families. We also have a lifestyle that is second none, and surely the high level of taxes we pay have contributed to these facts. Now regarding the issue of cheap Islander labour versus buying offshore, gentlemen your arguements are flawed, allow me to explain why. 1- Yes they might live locally and spend some of their money here, but i am sure that like most new migrants they would also send a large proportion of their money back home to their families. 2- If they are uninsured, then they are also depriving our local insurance industry. (not that i love insurance companies btw) 3- If they are working "cash in hand" and not fulfilling their tax obligation, again they are short changing our community, as i illustrated above. 4- If they are unqualified, then again they have short changed our educational community, and denied future generations of tree workers the knowledge they would have gained. So it is with these points i believe that my drawing an analogy between buying offshore and using cheap Islander labour is sound. (although not perfect) I hope this provokes some thought and debate. Oh, and just for the record, i have never worked for an insurance company, the tax office or a stihl dealer. __________________ I Drink Therefore I am.

10th November 2007, 07:45 PM	#31 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Help from our friends in the US Playfordtree The debate is great, I dont mind at all. What does a Stihl retailer actually pays for a saw here? What is the wholesale of that saw? Now lets expand this a little. Stihl have a factory called X. X makes and sells saws in Germany. Simple right. So wouldn't you think that whether I was buying from England, USA, NZ or Africa the factory X would have the same price! But ahh, hang on, Stihl decide to supply a central store, they look after the distribution and freight to the country perhaps. So when ringing factory X in Germany they say bugger off to your local country distribution centre. Now you have X.NZ; X.Africa; X.USA etc All of a sudden you have different prices now as Stihl decide the price into the country, and I assure you that price is not a cost price but another profit on top. Now the funny part is, you can allegedly buy a retail USA saw cheaper than a wholesale Australian saw. And to make matters worse get it here including freight cheaper.... for a 1 off item! So doesn't that raise alarm bells? A saw goes from Germany to USA in bulk, then retails and then to here cheaper than Stihl can supply. Stihl are full of BS. If USA can retail a ms200t for $500 they must be buying them for what, $250? So if I was a retailer I should be able to buy them off Stihl Germany for same and arrange my own freight ... like many other businesses do. And what I sell that saw for depends on how my business is structured and located. Currently Stihl have a rrp system, which is unfair to remote areas or high profile shops who have higher overheads. You know if you buy shoes at David Jones you'll pay more than K-Mart, even for the exact same shoe. There's an element of anti competative behaviour here and price fixing for sure ... I have USA saws and have had them for some time, they're great! But if they are different then why the secrecy? Why dont these Stihl people just open up? Because they have no argument strong enough to withstand their current pricing and practices. You honestly believe that Stihl make different saws for different countries within the same model number? I dont, sure some small things like air cleaners or bumper spikes, covers might change but the internal engine etc ... nope, I vote same thing. Invite your Stihl bloke into the discussion, I bet he wont, they're sworn to secrecy and could have their dealership pulled ... dont forget, Stihl are Germans and some things haven't changed in a long long time. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

10th November 2007, 07:49 PM	#32 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Help from our friends in the US You have kind of missed the point I was trying to make to you with regards your analogy, so I will try to rephrase the problems...... The product...chainsaw 020 is identical from US or from Oz (ok their may be very slight variations but none significant) The dealership..Stihl identical in some very important economic senses, parent company offshore, manufacture offshore, r&d offshore. Yes the actual owner/operator of the premises is local to the area and they will invest a proportion of their profits into local economy. The savings made by purchaser of saw will in all likelihood be invested in local goods and services (no guarentee sure) The product....unskilled unknowledgeable hacking labour, damages not only the tree in question (not such a big deal with removals) but surrounding vegetation and built assets, reinforces the nonsense that this kind of crap work is acceptable in our communities today.....compared to Eric's work..please there's no comparison...THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME INDUSTRY. (I don't really know what term you could use to describe the work that hackers do..malicious damage perhaps?) The provider of the product (the labour) again do you really need me to draw comparisons????? The savings...what savings?? who pays for the damages asociated with such substandard work? The owner for sure but we all do eventually. Is the purchase of a foriegn designed built and imported product from a dealership in the US as opposed to a dealership down the road, comparable to the purchase of services(?) from hacks or an Arborist...simply because there is a (mistaken) view that $$$ savings are occuring in both...I don't think they are comparable, and I think it weakens your arguement to choose to use and then defend such a weak comparison to support what is actually quite a strong arguement about the importance of choosing where and how we each of us spend our hard earned. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

10th November 2007, 08:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Help from our friends in the US Poor ole Playfordtrees, he's a nice guy. Hang in there mate, you'll be OK. Good point Sean. Then Ekka spends the difference on other things, maybe bikes for the kids for Christmas. (Prolly imported too!) __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

10th November 2007, 10:07 PM	#34 (permalink)
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 340	Re: Help from our friends in the US Eric, is the retail price for stihl chainsaws set by Stihl? or is it a % markup based on the wholesale price? If so who sets the wholesale price? If the wholesale price is different between the U.S. and Australia why is it different? Is it different because Stihl say so?, or is it different because our federal government has placed a large import duty upon the item? As i said before i don't know the answer, it was just a guess that it's a federally imposed import tax that makes the difference. Does the extra $$ go to Stihl, or into the federal revenue of our country? I think we need some definitive proof! Not just speculation. As for differences in manufacture, i have no idea if they do or do not make the saws differently. I was only going on what my local bloke told me ( he has never bullshtted to me before, but that doesn't mean that someone hasn't lied to him and he is just passing on what he believes to be true!) I will be seeing him early this week so i will ask him these questions. As for your last comment your not implying Germans are arrogant are you? Regards Simon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean, I have never compared the work that Eric does with work carried out by the Islanders, please read my posts again. I understand your anger at the work being carried out by these "hacks". but unfortunatly, they are in the same industry*. The big difference is obviously the quality of work performed. It makes no difference whether you are a certified arborist with years of experience, or if you are fresh off the banana boat with a chainsaw and a prayer. The Islanders are still service providers like you and me! (they are just providers of very poor service) The comparison i was making was, if you are a customer who chooses to use the service of an unqualified, uninsured person who pays no tax. You are probably doing so to save yourself money, unfortunatly the saving you make comes at a cost to your local service provider who is qualified,insured and pays his taxes. It's the same if you buy your saws offshore, you are making a saving at the cost of your local dealer, it is irrelevant whether he is rich or poor. Or whether the wholesale price he pays is different to his counterpart in the U.S.A. Again, i am not trying to pass judgement on anybody as i am the first one to try and save a buck or two. I am simply trying to point out the difference between Economics and Morality. These are the same economic principles that big business and insurance companies use when they make everyday decisions concerning us. For example; James Hardy moving their operations offshore so they could try and avoid their obligations to their former workers who are suffering from asbestos related diseases. Choice 1 - Moving offshore will cost them Choice 2 - Staying in Australia and paying compensation will cost them Their economists are the people who advise them which one of these decisions will cost them more! It is then up to the board of James Hardy to make a decision on which way to go. As a corporate company James Hardy have no obligation to make a decision based on morals. They only have to appease their shareholders. It was cheaper to move offshore, so thats what they did. I hope this debate is all in good fun Regards Simon. __________________ I Drink Therefore I am.

10th November 2007, 10:25 PM	#35 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 877	Re: Help from our friends in the US Anyone want to chip in and get a container load sent over??? __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

10th November 2007, 11:11 PM	#37 (permalink)
Quintrex Mature tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 464	Re: Help from our friends in the US The Japs say Herr Frei?????

10th November 2007, 11:30 PM	#38 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Help from our friends in the US Simon, the debate is in good humour and if my use of capitals came across as OTT it probably was, sorry. I will state for about the hundreth time (in my life not on this forum!) Unqualified unskilled hacks and loppers are not in the same industry as me or any other properly trained and qualified Arborist adhering to our code of ethics. It is like comparing a qualified and licensed plumber to a bloke who knows how to change the washer in a tap....yes they both work with pipes water and fittings but that is where the similarity ends. These blokes Eric filmed, I feel as much unhappiness for them as I do anyone else...they are exposed to the same (even more!) risk as I am when I climb and cut, but they have none of the advanages I have...insurance, training, quality gear and experience...not forgetting the support of an excellent groundie in Tim. The more we percieve ourselves as being merely loppers who can read a bit or who have sat an exam or two the less progress will be made in the care and management of trees in this country. (And no I'm sure that's not what you were saying I'm making my own assertion here) Arboriculture is not lopping or topping, loppers and toppers can become Arborists I know a few myself personally who are very ashamed of their past practices (though there is no shame in doing what you thought was the right thing back then) Arboriculture has a set of ethics and values trees in critical ways that ensure (as much as humanly possible) a long term perspective, more realistic to the continuation of all aspects of our natural environment, is applied to managing trees in the dramatically altered urban scene. This is getting way off the original topic and I apologise for that, but to my mind none of you guys should be comparing yourselves to hacks, loppers or toppers..we can never hope to educate the general public at large if we ourselves don't understand why there is a difference between them and us and just what that difference is....and more importantly why it matters (and it aint $$$s!) __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

11th November 2007, 02:09 AM	#39 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: Help from our friends in the US Good one Eric. Straight the horses mouth again. The reply will be interesting as all our brains are now ticking over.... I wonder if stihl would get nervous at the influx of saws and POSSIBLY lower their price???