Help from our friends in the US

Eric Frei

Playfordtree

The debate is great, I dont mind at all.

What does a Stihl retailer actually pays for a saw here?

What is the wholesale of that saw?

Now lets expand this a little.

Stihl have a factory called X.

X makes and sells saws in Germany. Simple right.

So wouldn't you think that whether I was buying from England, USA, NZ or Africa the factory X would have the same price!

But ahh, hang on, Stihl decide to supply a central store, they look after the distribution and freight to the country perhaps.

So when ringing factory X in Germany they say bugger off to your local country distribution centre.

Now you have X.NZ; X.Africa; X.USA etc

All of a sudden you have different prices now as Stihl decide the price into the country, and I assure you that price is not a cost price but another profit on top.

Now the funny part is, you can allegedly buy a retail USA saw cheaper than a wholesale Australian saw. And to make matters worse get it here including freight cheaper.... for a 1 off item!

So doesn't that raise alarm bells? A saw goes from Germany to USA in bulk, then retails and then to here cheaper than Stihl can supply.

Stihl are full of BS.

If USA can retail a ms200t for $500 they must be buying them for what, $250? So if I was a retailer I should be able to buy them off Stihl Germany for same and arrange my own freight ... like many other businesses do.

And what I sell that saw for depends on how my business is structured and located. Currently Stihl have a rrp system, which is unfair to remote areas or high profile shops who have higher overheads.

You know if you buy shoes at David Jones you'll pay more than K-Mart, even for the exact same shoe.

There's an element of anti competative behaviour here and price fixing for sure ... I have USA saws and have had them for some time, they're great!

But if they are different then why the secrecy? Why dont these Stihl people just open up? Because they have no argument strong enough to withstand their current pricing and practices. You honestly believe that Stihl make different saws for different countries within the same model number? I dont, sure some small things like air cleaners or bumper spikes, covers might change but the internal engine etc ... nope, I vote same thing.

Invite your Stihl bloke into the discussion, I bet he wont, they're sworn to secrecy and could have their dealership pulled ... dont forget, Stihl are Germans and some things haven't changed in a long long time.

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Sean Freeman

You have kind of missed the point I was trying to make to you with regards your analogy, so I will try to rephrase the problems......

The product...chainsaw 020 is identical from US or from Oz (ok their may be very slight variations but none significant)
The dealership..Stihl identical in some very important economic senses, parent company offshore, manufacture offshore, r&d offshore. Yes the actual owner/operator of the premises is local to the area and they will invest a proportion of their profits into local economy.
The savings made by purchaser of saw will in all likelihood be invested in local goods and services (no guarentee sure)

The product....unskilled unknowledgeable hacking labour, damages not only the tree in question (not such a big deal with removals) but surrounding vegetation and built assets, reinforces the nonsense that this kind of crap work is acceptable in our communities today.....compared to Eric's work..please there's no comparison...THEY ARE NOT IN THE SAME INDUSTRY.
(I don't really know what term you could use to describe the work that hackers do..malicious damage perhaps?)
The provider of the product (the labour) again do you really need me to draw comparisons?????
The savings...what savings?? who pays for the damages asociated with such substandard work? The owner for sure but we all do eventually.

Is the purchase of a foriegn designed built and imported product from a dealership in the US as opposed to a dealership down the road, comparable to the purchase of services(?) from hacks or an Arborist...simply because there is a (mistaken) view that $$$ savings are occuring in both...I don't think they are comparable, and I think it weakens your arguement to choose to use and then defend such a weak comparison to support what is actually quite a strong arguement about the importance of choosing where and how we each of us spend our hard earned.

Eric Frei

Poor ole Playfordtrees, he's a nice guy.

Hang in there mate, you'll be OK.

Good point Sean.

Then Ekka spends the difference on other things, maybe bikes for the kids for Christmas. (Prolly imported too!)

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playfordtree

Eric,

is the retail price for stihl chainsaws set by Stihl?
or is it a % markup based on the wholesale price?
If so who sets the wholesale price?

If the wholesale price is different between the U.S. and Australia why is it different?
Is it different because Stihl say so?,
or is it different because our federal government has placed a large import duty upon the item?

As i said before i don't know the answer, it was just a guess that it's a federally imposed import tax that makes the difference.
Does the extra $$ go to Stihl, or into the federal revenue of our country?
I think we need some definitive proof!
Not just speculation.

As for differences in manufacture, i have no idea if they do or do not make the saws differently.
I was only going on what my local bloke told me ( he has never bullsh*tted to me before, but that doesn't mean that someone hasn't lied to him and he is just passing on what he believes to be true!)

I will be seeing him early this week so i will ask him these questions.

As for your last comment your not implying Germans are arrogant are you?


Regards Simon

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Sean,

I have never compared the work that Eric does with work carried out by the Islanders, please read my posts again.
I understand your anger at the work being carried out by these "hacks".
but unfortunatly,
they are in the same industry.
The big difference is obviously the quality of work performed.
It makes no difference whether you are a certified arborist with years of experience, or if you are fresh off the banana boat with a chainsaw and a prayer.
The Islanders are still service providers like you and me!
(they are just providers of very poor service)

The comparison i was making was,

if you are a customer who chooses to use the service of an unqualified, uninsured person who pays no tax.
You are probably doing so to save yourself money, unfortunatly the saving you make comes at a cost to your local service provider who is qualified,insured and pays his taxes.

It's the same if you buy your saws offshore, you are making a saving at the cost of your local dealer, it is irrelevant whether he is rich or poor.
Or whether the wholesale price he pays is different to his counterpart in the U.S.A.

Again, i am not trying to pass judgement on anybody as i am the first one to try and save a buck or two.
I am simply trying to point out the difference between Economics and Morality.

These are the same economic principles that big business and insurance companies use when they make everyday decisions concerning us.

For example;
James Hardy moving their operations offshore so they could try and avoid their obligations to their former workers who are suffering from asbestos related diseases.
Choice 1 - Moving offshore will cost them
Choice 2 - Staying in Australia and paying compensation will cost them

Their economists are the people who advise them which one of these decisions will cost them more!
It is then up to the board of James Hardy to make a decision on which way to go.
As a corporate company James Hardy have no obligation to make a decision based on morals.
They only have to appease their shareholders.
It was cheaper to move offshore, so thats what they did.

I hope this debate is all in good fun

Regards Simon.

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

a_lopa

Anyone want to chip in and get a container load sent over???

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Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

Eric Frei

Some interesting links.

Germany - Country information - Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade

When buying over the internet

Customs Tariff HS2007

Importing Goods by Post

Please note, I have emailed customs to get some answers now the way I see it you only have to pay a small customs fee and 10%GST on the incoming.

Simon, even today when you address your boss or superior in Germany you use Herr Frei, not G'day Eric or even Herr Eric Frei ... lots of ingrained tradition and respect ... Japs similar.

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Quintrex

The Japs say Herr Frei?????

Sean Freeman

Simon, the debate is in good humour and if my use of capitals came across as OTT it probably was, sorry. I will state for about the hundreth time (in my life not on this forum!) Unqualified unskilled hacks and loppers are not in the same industry as me or any other properly trained and qualified Arborist adhering to our code of ethics. It is like comparing a qualified and licensed plumber to a bloke who knows how to change the washer in a tap....yes they both work with pipes water and fittings but that is where the similarity ends.

These blokes Eric filmed, I feel as much unhappiness for them as I do anyone else...they are exposed to the same (even more!) risk as I am when I climb and cut, but they have none of the advanages I have...insurance, training, quality gear and experience...not forgetting the support of an excellent groundie in Tim.

The more we percieve ourselves as being merely loppers who can read a bit or who have sat an exam or two the less progress will be made in the care and management of trees in this country. (And no I'm sure that's not what you were saying I'm making my own assertion here)

Arboriculture is not lopping or topping, loppers and toppers can become Arborists I know a few myself personally who are very ashamed of their past practices (though there is no shame in doing what you thought was the right thing back then) Arboriculture has a set of ethics and values trees in critical ways that ensure (as much as humanly possible) a long term perspective, more realistic to the continuation of all aspects of our natural environment, is applied to managing trees in the dramatically altered urban scene.

This is getting way off the original topic and I apologise for that, but to my mind none of you guys should be comparing yourselves to hacks, loppers or toppers..we can never hope to educate the general public at large if we ourselves don't understand why there is a difference between them and us and just what that difference is....and more importantly why it matters (and it aint $$$s!)

shaggs

Good one Eric. Straight the horses mouth again. The reply will be interesting as all our brains are now ticking over....
I wonder if stihl would get nervous at the influx of saws and POSSIBLY lower their price???

Eric Frei

Nah, Stihl will try to nail the dealer who sold them, true story.

Apparently there's bad enough blood when you buy over the phone and get it shipped from a suburb 30kms away when there's a dealer in your suburb.

They use the warranty details to monitor shop that sold to location of saw.

The concept is if you go to a Stihl dealer here in say Springwood the saw should be and cost exactly the same as going into a Stihl shop in Geelong. However if the Geelong guy sells me a saw then why? Cheaper? Not sticking to rrp?

Internet sales are flat out banned by Stihl, you have to go to their shop.

Has anyone noticed that the VIP guys trailers look like Stihl billboards? There's Stihl and Viking plastered all over them.

Note the Stihl on their shirts too!

VIP - Services

VIP - About VIP

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shaggs

Judging by that, it wouldn't surprise me if stihl wouldn't honour warranties on "new" saws directly imported from the US as a measure to stop the trade??? Or bring in some small print to effect this.

Eric Frei

There in lies the only catch, serial number req'd for warranty.

So far I haven't had any dramas with my saws, but I also can fix my own, crap like broken starter cords/springs etc you just fix yourself.

I had a 46 spit a ring, got jammed between the top of piston and exhaust port, buggered that engine bad, broke the crank! Anyway, Stihl took it back to Melbourne and fixed it, I have it working today, great saw, that happened back in 2000 region.

I would say, if it was a warranty issue then you'd have to send the bloody thing back to where it came from to come in under the radar. There is some risk, but it doesn't put me off.

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playfordtree

Well done Herr Frei

As always, the work you put into your posts is outstanding!
(i dont know where you find the time)

Lets hope we get some straight answers.
If we can gather enough information that Stihl are screwing us, then we might be able to do something about it.

This is how change takes place, when like minded people come together.
Everyone on this forum is effected by this subject, so we should all be doing our bit to help.
e.g. talking to your local supplier, talking to your customers,talking to friends overseas etc...
Then when we have all the facts we will have the power to move on this issue.
People power will always overcome a monopoly!

Maybe we should send a email to the head office of Stihl,
and give them a link to this forum and this debate?
(see if that puts the wind up them a bit)

Lets hope we can force a change

Wouldn't it be great if we could all go to our local dealer here in Australia and buy a saw for the same price as our friends in the U.S.
(then we can all have bloody new bikes )

It would be an even sweeter victory if the catalyst for this change had started right here in "little old Treeworld"

Keep punching mate, and keep us posted.

regards Simon

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

playfordtree

That was funny, thanks Quintrex i needed a good laugh.

my brain was starting to hurt with all this thinking.

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

playfordtree

Sean you dont have to apologise to me or anyone else for being passionate about what you believe in.


I am not an Arborist i am a tree lopper (by lopper i mean removals)
the only qualification i have is a chainsaw ticket.
I came into the tree industry late in life and have found it difficult to get the eduacation i need.
I am however a fully qualified Diesel Mechanic and a fully qualified Gym Instructor
(though these days i'm a fat bugger who drinks too much beer and eats too much BBQ)

I am eternally gratefull to people like yourself and Ekka who share their vast knowledge for FREE!

Even though i am not qualified i always try to conduct myself in a professional manner, but i know i could improve (especially my PPE).
If i do a pruning job i always prune to standard, i would never "top" a tree nor would i wear spikes to prune.
If i am confronted by a tree job that is out of my league i always refer my customer to a qualified Arborist.

and herein lies the problem mate.

Most people dont even know what an Arborist is!
The average customer thinks that anyone with a chainsaw is a tree surgeon.

You must understand this Sean!

I know it's a bitter pill to swallow.

The average punter doesnt care about your qualifications or how much you have spent on equipment, they just want the job done cheap!
The average customer sees no difference between an Arborist and an Islander, because they dont understand.
They might recognise the difference in the quality of work performed, but they mainly notice the difference in price.

To the average tree owner we are all in the same industry.

sad but true

Sean, by making yourself available to the general public on this forum as you do, you are going a long way to helping to overcome this problem.
As well as eduacating us newbs along the way.
Well done.



I hope you appreciate my honesty, and i hope i can return the favour and be of assistance to you one day.

Regards Simon

p.s.
when you guys talk about tree size you use the abbrev. DBH, what the hell does DBH stand for?
cheers

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

Sean Freeman

Man I can equate to that one....my missus was telling someone just yesterday whilst looking through old photos "Yes Sean used to look really buffed when he worked out every day....."

Gym work starts this arvo!!!! (Who am I kidding more like!!)

DBH= Diameter (of stem) at Breast Height (1.4m) Its an important measurement because we can use to calculate the volume (and area) of soil and roots we need to protect to keep a tree healthy in a construction situation, or when diggin one out for transplanting.

playfordtree

Thanks for explaining that Sean.

Yeh my missus is just as bad, recently she's taken to putting up old photos of me in strategic places e.g. the fridge door, on the pin up board next to the computer etc..

she's a cheeky bugger.

I just tell her it makes me depressed looking at them so i need to drink more to help with my depression.

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

JayD

It's a wonderfull thing age, Maybe?
JayD's dbh is less than he's dgh..?

Or put in simpler term JayD's Chest Is..

A pirates delight!
A sunken chest...LOL

I'm lookin at the torcher bench to....After work yeah right

A good intense discussion we had here and we all can still talk..

__________________

Level 4 Arborist/ FPIFGM 3204A: Fall trees manually (intermediate)

Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

Eric Frei

Thanks

You motivated me to write another page for one of my sites.

It really gets to me when BS advice is thrown about by tree people. Your groundy who's had one week on the job is advising people about their trees, the bucket truck operator is now a consultant and the truck driver is the transplant foreman!

We are all about trees - arborist report| developer report

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Sean Freeman

Eric the title picture on that linked page is really, really beautiful where is it?

Eric Frei

Avenue of oaks in USA, down Louisiana way.

Stunning, apparently some 300 year old.

I figured us Aussies need some inspiration, the next best pic is Trev's cypress clean up but there's no house in it.

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Eric Frei

OK

Have an answer back from customs. I have asked about Germany so see what happens, seems he missed that. But USA is piss easy.... ALL IN $AUD dont forget.

Cost of goods you pay 5% to customs.

Then there's a 10% GST on total which is cost of goods, the 5%, freight/insurance and some $50 to $70 customs paperwork.

So tell me, with the Aussie dollar the way it is and the new free trade agreement with USA why are USA made chippers still so expensive?

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playfordtree

I was just reading that email customs sent you, in particular the line that states,
"There are no equivalent preferential rates for goods originating in Germany."

I wonder if that could be the key?

I went to that customs link and found chapter 84, it seems that chainsaws come under the same catergory as nuclear reactors? go figure

when i tried to open the pdf pertaining to rates of tarriff, my computer keeps giving me an error message and says it cant understand the text?

When i open the file the pages just contain grey lines?

Could this be an error at my end? or is there something wrong at their end?

Did you manage to open them Herr Frei?

(sorry cant help myself, im still pissing my pants over that one)

A german accent on your next video would be a scream!

"Dis morning ve vill be cutting downz the palmz, after lunch ve vill be hunting for de "hacks" ven ve findz themz dey will be shot"

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.

Eric Frei

Seems to me it's either 5% or free. But I have emailed them for clarification.

I can read all PDF's, problem is your end, there's a newer version out, perhaps visit Adobe website.

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Eric Frei

Clarification arrived and I was right, a measly 5% for Germany.

So now you can do the math and see who's getting ripped off.

Can we get prices from Germany and USA, real prices?

What's a brand new chipper cost in USA? Also are their state taxes negated like GST is here for overseas export? Could be.

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a_lopa

Be worth a trip to germany...

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Drouin Tree Services and Excavator Hire | Excavator Hire - Drouin and SE Gippsland

Eric Frei

I was just in the Stihl shop today, spoke the the owner about this and asked why etc.

He answer was "it's the high taxes in Australia"

As you can see the spin doctors think we're all stupid. They've been singing that BS song for decades getting fat.

When I challenged the shop owner and brought up the facts they stuck their head in the sand and didn't want to know about it.

I asked how much a Kohler 25hp is, $3900, to which I said $1600 USD so WTF!
I asked what he pays wholesale for a ms200T, of course the answer was not forthcoming. And when I asked him to challenge Stihl he cringed. His answer was it's the same for all, whether it was Husky or Echo etc ... more spin.

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Quintrex

I enquired about stihl prices in Germany about 15 years ago and was told retail prices there were about the same as here, yet prices in the US are about half. I never got a satisfactory explanation for this.
In 1990 I imported several 020AV's from the States. The exch rate then was about $1 US to A80 cents. RRP in US $450, cost me $600A. Aus RRP was $950 even then. Freight cost was minimal as I had a friend importing cars at the time and he didn't charge much. With our dollar currently flyin, it should really be worthwhile now.

shaggs

Maybe its time for stihls bubble to burst?

playfordtree

I got the chance to speak to my local bloke this afternoon, and ask him if he new what was going on with pricing.
I was apprehensive to ask him at first, but he was more than happy to talk about it!

Seems Eric is right, Stihl are "bending us over" in Australia.
He told me all about the markups and how they're "ripping us off!"

Plus, (hows this for bastardry), when Stihl have a sale or give a discount, or they give away a "freebie".
My bloke has to pay for the discount or "freebie" out of his end!


When i told him how much the 200t is going for in the US, he couldnt believe it!

He laughed at me and told me not to be stupid when i went all sentimental and mentioned how i still wanted to support his business.
He then told me,

"Don't worry about me, get as many cheap saws as you can."
"As a matter of fact, can you get me a few as well"


Now look, i can understand that a saw in Australia will always be dearer than a saw in the U.S.,
but this is outrageous!

Something needs to be done about this!

This is obviously blatant profiteering by Stihl!
Surely there must be some course of action we can all take.
Can we report them to the Consumer & Competition Council?
Petition a local member of Parliament maybe?

Has anyone got any ideas or suggestions?

__________________
Jack of all trades.
Mastered by No-one.