Heavy pruning prior to transplanting| transplanting stumps| Advanced Tree Transplant

Eric Frei · 1st February 2009, 04:32 PM

I have bolded and enlarged the area which seems to contradict best practice.

Lets get some comments and evidence/papers etc about these types of stump transplants. With a recent thread a homeowner started about a similar poinciana transplant it's fair to get some information out there.

Also, note the heavy root pruning, and bare root transplant.

Xpress: News | Mind the ghaf: Tree’s company

Quote:

Published: April 17, 2008, 08:52

Mind the ghaf: Tree’s company

By Mohammed N. AL Khan, Staff Reporter

For hundreds of years, the ghaf tree has been a refuge for Bedouin and other travellers, from the harsh desert sun and sand-peppered winds.

However, with the advent of modernisation, the ghaf (Prosopis specigera) lost out to concrete and asphalt.

But, still, many managed to survive and they have now found their new home in what is fondly called the ‘Mushrif Forest’ in Mushrif Park in Deira.

Just off Al Khawaneej, a 6.28-square kilometre patch on either side of the road leading to Mushrif Park has been turned into a sanctuary for trees that have lost their home to construction.

The sanctuary is estimated to have more than 63,000 trees.

"What we’ve got here is the UAE’s natural ecosystem," said Mohammad Abdul Rahman Al Awadi, Head of Dubai Municipality’s Horticulture Section. "We haven’t touched the plants and trees that were originally here; all we’ve done is added trees to their surroundings."

Tree sanctuary

Trees in Mushrif range from 20 to 150 years old.

"The ghaf naturally grows very slowly due to its habitat and lack of water and nutrition in its surroundings," he explained.

The tree sanctuary was established in 1993 when the horticulture section moved 19 ghaf trees to the park from a patch of land behind the World Trade Centre.

Since then, Al Awadi and his team have relocated 7,037 ghaf trees.

The park is also home to other species of trees, such as date palms, sant, fitneh, samar, sidr, rolla and Indian tamarind.

"These trees are best suited to our natural ecology. However, most of them, especially the date palms, will only be here temporarily until a final location is found for them," said Al Awadi.

The forest is also a temporary home to many ornamental trees such as the fire tree.

Transplanting

Only recently, ghaf trees from Al Barsha were relocated to Mushrif Park.

"We don’t relocate trees unless they are being directly threatened by construction.

"We wait until the absolute last minute before moving the tree to give it a better chance of survival," said Al Awadi.

It usually takes at least three months to determine if a transplanted tree will survive in its new habitat. Trees earmarked for transplant are trimmed of excess branches and leaves to increase their chances of survival.

"The leaves and branches must be removed to give the roots a chance to grow and dig in, otherwise the tree will get dehydrated and die," Al Awadi said.

Number of trees being cared for in the park

* Ghaf (Prosopis specigera) 35,507
* Sant (Acacia Arabica) 4,880
* Indian tamarind (Pithcellobium dulce) 9,823
* Samar (Acacia tortilis) 3,590
* Fitneh (Acacia Farnesiana) 3,960
* Dradixia (Parkinsonia aculata) 600
* Sidr (Zizyphus jujube) 4,640

Branching out

The large rolla tree that stood at Zabeel Roundabout in front of Zabeel Palace, has also been relocated to the Mushrif Forest.

"Unfortunately we had to trim its branches because we feared that the trunk would split during transportation," said Mohammad Abdul Rahman Al Awadi, Head of Dubai Municipality’s Horticulture Section. "It is doing very well now and we hope to move it to its final location very soon."

63,000

trees are housed in mushrif park

© Copyright 2007 Al Nisr Media FZ LLC. All rights reserved

Jeff Darby · 1st February 2009, 07:24 PM

Interesting...transplanting what appear large stumps is this de javu? I have not been involved in large transplants however I have transplanted smaller trees.

We allways left the canopy on and a large cone shaped amount of dirt around the roots, althought I can see in this situation it would be hard to keep the sandy soil around the roots not that there much of them left even with the radical lopping of the branches there seems to be no consideration in trying to keep a little form they appear to be lopped off willy nilly.

It says they are doing nicely?? in the first port of call sugesting they are going to transplant these stumps..errr..trunks to their final resting place..I hope not litterally.

Have we any more pictures of these victims doing well?

Sean Freeman · 1st February 2009, 07:55 PM

The news site has more pics and of the area they are moved into but none of the trees they have moved so hard to say how successful they have been in getting these trees to survive even in the short term.

I won't try to dominate this thread I suspect that most people know my opinion suggest if interested people read through this site on the species, I have no great knowledge of mesquite at all...The Current State of Knowledge on Prosopis juliflora

Not suggesting that the FOA site is gospel either...

Prosopis sp are extremely tough...and like other xerophytic species can tolerate extended droughts and increased saline conditions...in fact quite a remarkable tree all round.

It is a real shame that given the clear recognition of the value of these trees there has not been a push to provide funding to permit the adaptation of some improvements to their method...it is very vrey brutal.

When you have tree species that are so resiliant and persistant they will invariably survive the initial trauma but the impact on what would have been their life span and the consequences for the predisposition to latter failures is IMO undeniable.

Ultimately one could argue well what are the practical alternatives in this instance...someone is paying for the trucks, frontend loaders cranes etc.. they are not short of plant machinery in that neck of the woods

Tree spade could work very well in that situ I reckon...sand tracks of course!

There are lots of ways things could be improved...just depends on the will and the funding.

Eric Frei · 1st February 2009, 08:32 PM

I bet I could raise as many documents to support what this mob practices as there are documents to condemn the practice.

Such is the irony of the industry.

We have AS4373 which reckons dont lop trees, but it should be amended to unless transplanting stumps right?

What about the radical removal of roots, to hell with the SRZ of the AS4970 document right?

So the tree cops a double whammy, roots and canopy cut off. However like a quadriplegic on life support with some TLC it survives and grows. Does that make a Dr Frankenstein and arborist extraordinaire?

Yeah, my posts are right out there, challenging the rhetoric of the industry.

Deep down my gut feeling says all of this is rubbish.

Why?

Because in the vast majority of cases the reasoning is "due to mechanical and transportation constraints".

Think about this carefully. The advocates for the said procedures use two strong reasons.

1/ Road, transport and equipment limitations, you simply are restricted by roads, bridges etc on how high or large your load is.

2/ The tree survives.

Do realise that a trees appetite for survival is near infinite, even in death the seeds do germinate, roots can grow suckers and the oldest living tree on earth is but a sucker yet carries the label of the world's oldest tree due to genetic bonds to the root stock.

Herein lies the anomaly, what is a tree and tree dignity?

If the pruning were to be done to standing living trees one would call it malpractice. However should it be done to a transplant then is OK?

After all a transplant is seen as an ultimate saving of a tree that would otherwise be chipped and grubbed. But that's the case for many a tree in an urban yard that has simply outgrown it's location or perceived as a threat due to height. Would a lopped to half size tree be entertained as a safer tree (for the interim) and a saving as it wasn't removed?

Another thing to ponder.

Laws, rules, standards generally are made post incident or problem. You know, the "crime" came along but no law dealt with it so lets make one ... just like lopping, just like butchered trees or those left with bugger all room on development sites. Lets see another example, oh credit is a good one. People get shark loans, nothing illegal about that, they know the terms prior to engagement however the govt realises those customers are somewhat ignorant and deprived of other avenues etc so regulates that market.

Is the trunk and stump transplant market needing regulation?

Are the suppliers of these services simply justifying their actions due to civil constraints like transport widths and heights? The trees simply need that treatment not for their own benefit but for the suppliers?

Is the perfect root ball only 2.1m because that's what trees really need or that's what the machine cuts?

Look at these pictures, would they have taken more canopy and roots had the truck been larger?

Who's selling what here?

I invite you all to really think this out and through plus make comment.

treevet · 2nd February 2009, 01:37 AM

I think trees have dignity and as mentioned above, this should be a relevant consideration. The dis figuration of these trees in this seemingly Barbaric process seems to simply favor the profit column. These trees could be compared to a zoo bringing in lions and tigers and removing all their teeth and claws so the staff could feed and deal with them with less trouble, time and ultimately....less cost.

The issues with these trees will come later in the form of decayed roots and stems from large internodal cuts that predispose them to entrance of decay- causing organisms and the weakness or loss of vitality that discourages compartmentalization. The dollars will have been handed out all around way prior to that and none will be given back.

The knowledge is there, the standards need to be written and administered and followed or consequences dealt out.

treeseer · 2nd February 2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I bet I could raise as many documents to support what this mob practices as there are documents to condemn the practice.

Such is the irony of the industry.

Such is the lack of standards on tree moving. It would be a big mistake to apply construction standards on root volume to transplanting mequite. Before we get on our high horses we should tighten up the saddle or we'll take a dive and get trampled.

The pruning on the other hand is undeniably wrong--showing an alternative procedure directional cutting to nodes at different levels would be positive input IF done with humility and respect.

Examples of course would carry much farther than words alone. And if their survival rate is good despite the butchery then we should be doubly respectful.

treevet · 2nd February 2009, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Such is the lack of standards on tree moving. It would be a big mistake to apply construction standards on root volume to transplanting mequite. Before we get on our high horses we should tighten up the saddle or we'll take a dive and get trampled.

The pruning on the other hand is undeniably wrong--showing an alternative procedure directional cutting to nodes at different levels would be positive input IF done with humility and respect.

Examples of course would carry much farther than words alone. And if their survival rate is good despite the butchery then we should be doubly respectful.

High horses...tighten up the saddle....take a dive....get trampled

As for being "doubly" respectful let alone mildly respectful for archaic practices that leaves a tree disfigured and "barely surviving" despite its treatment....well my opinion, whether you like it or not who cares....is

Eric Frei · 2nd February 2009, 07:28 AM

Years ago I worked in insurance and finance. Due to inconsistencies and dubious practices the industry created codes etc. The industry got tidied up, standard disclosure documents, standards of cover, standards of wording, commission disclosures etc. Perhaps an information/fact sheet has to be provided and signed by the purchaser of every stump making them aware of the problems and implications. Perhaps there has to be species exempted from such treatment or location restrictions for transplants.

What if a species grew large and failed damaging property or lives?

Some-one mentioned that the home-owners turn over every 7 years, the new owner unaware of a tree that was a stump transplant may ignore it (so could the old owner anyway) and the tree becomes hazardous?

What if the combination of adventitious root growth and decay at the root crown result in a failure down the track?

--------------------------

Now here's two other stories, however I dont like using fruit/nut production trees as examples because they traditionally get butchered regardless for picking and production.

However this talks about transplanting them and uses the same principals.

Landline - 3/03/2002: Transplants beat the crowds . Australian Broadcasting Corp

Quote:

Transplants beat the crowds
Reporter: Pip Courtney
First Published: 3/03/2002

The Clark family's avocado farm at Blackbutt north west of Brisbane is the result of 25 years in the industry.

Everything Graeme his wife and their 3 sons have learned about growing avocados on three Queensland farms - all the mistakes as well as the successes - have led to the development of this operation.

The Clarks are now the biggest late fruit producers of avocados in Australia, selling a large proportion of their produce direct to Coles.

One reason the Clarks are doing so well is Graeme is prepared to search for innovations, which will lift turnover and profit.

His latest innovation is tree transplanting, a radical solution to a common industry problem of orchard overcrowding.

The Clarks’ transplanted their first mature avocado tree four years ago when their closely planted orchard started to become overcrowded.

So why plant them so close together it the first place?

"Well everyone did it. It is called it canopy management and because of the cost of the land and because they want production quick they plant them close together and they don’t thin them out soon enough and before you know where you are they are closed in and your production drops," Graeme Clark said.

When part of the Clarks’ orchard began closing in Graeme and his son Terry savagely pruned the trees they wanted to remove - it's called staghorning.

"An avocado farmer up in Toowomba, Mike Gerrity, I saw him do some 22 year old trees and I was just amazed at the production they produced," Graeme said.

‘You have to cut it back that savage and wait till all that sap flow comes into that stump all the buds are trying to burst through the bark and if you have it too high you have too much wood and too much heat from the sun on it but if you have a short stump you have a good balance between roots and wood when we do the transplant," he said.

"The white paint is a cheap plastic paint which reflects the heat. "The avocado is a rainforest tree and the bark does burn. So it’s twofold. It stops the heat and stops the bark burning."

The stumps are left for three months and then they are dug out.

"I had seen Mike do it and had absolute confidence you know you don't go buying eighty thousand dollar crane trucks and excavators and taking risks like that unless you know it works," Graeme said.

After the tree's dug up, it isn't babied, just dumped in a truck and driven uncovered in extreme heat 30 kilometres to the Clarks’ new block and its new home.

Graeme says the avocado tree is incredibly tough.

"In the initial stages when I was at Flaxon 30 years ago I had a few varieties I was going to transplant because I was going to build a house on the site and I got them out with a shovel and they are fine. We had a row of trees where a cyclone knocked a tree over and its roots were exposed, I chopped them off and that tree was the best tree on the farm."

Staghorning is a common practice in the industry - re-using the stumps though is pretty uncommon.

"It is fairly uncommon to my knowledge. I'm aware of a limited number people who have used it, but it is a very limited number," Rod Dalton, President of the Australian Avocado Growers Federation said.

"It is probably a useful system in particularly areas where people have more land to expand, in as far as actually physically removing trees and continuing to utilise them. One of the old strategies of canopy management was simply to remove trees and chop them down, chop down every second tree and essentially kill it. And I guess what's Graeme's taken that one step further and is recycling those trees but the removal of alternative trees has been a system widely used, but we just haven't in the past reused them," he said.

Rod Dalton says transplanting trees is not an option for all growers.

"You need more land to be able to expand and a lot of orchards, say on the Sunshine Coast etc don't have any further land to expand into, but other areas such as the Blackbutt area, they have land available. If there's good water supply available, water supply is a critical factor to any avocado production, you need large volumes of water. And the equipment, that equipment is out there available for hire in most locations, it's just having the expertise to actually work the system and to have it successful at a high success rate is critical," he said.

"He's I guess, worked out a system a that enables the tree to settle down and he doesn't prune it and try and remove it immediately. He prunes it, lets the tree stabilise and then he replants it. He's in a reasonably kind environment, it's good soil and cooler temperatures, particularly at night, compared to some of the coastal areas, so the tree probably has a better chance of recovery. But his overall management of the tree and the moving process is critical to the success of it," Rod Dalton said.

The transplants are treated well at their new home. The three-metre hole the mass of roots is dropped into is lined with fowl manure, crushed basalt, and lime to give them a good start.

"And we put the same material around the base of the tree and lots of it, then heaps of woodchips and couple of sprinklers and away they go." Graeme said.

"Last year was a very short supply year for avocados and our transplants at year four, they were taken when the trees were nine or ten, they out produced the original trees that were left in," he said.

Graeme says as far as he knows nothing on the scale of this block of transplants has been done before in Australia.

"Well 40 cartons at year four and we have 2000 trees here – in two years time they will have 80 thousand cartons, plus the value of the property has gone up 600 000 dollars since we started, you now it speaks for itself," Graeme said.

"There are a lot of different thoughts. There are a lot of consultants who say it won't work and well we are in a slow growing climate and maybe in other areas it might not work but it certainly works here."

"It is phenomenal. Why buy a young tree and wait - seven years when you can just do this?"

The other is a PDF attached.

Quote:

Pruning is a key factor in minimizing transplant shock. Before transplanting, commercial pecan growers usually severely prune their trees to minimize transplanting’s
disruption of the natural root–shoot balance. Some growers remove all limbs from the tree, leaving a post-like tree 7 to 10 feet tall; others retain three or four scaffold
limbs, stubbing each of them back to 2 or 3 feet, in order to give the transplant a bit of a head start in developing
its new canopy framework (Figure 1). Either way, such severe pruning creates much smaller canopies in the season after transplanting, reducing demand for water
and making the transplants less prone to water stress

treeseer · 2nd February 2009, 11:25 AM

good links eric; shows that job 1 is to knwo your species. pecans very good at codit, and thast avocado man sounds like he knows a lot about dose and timing.

Branch pruning of mesquite horrible and easy to show a better way at low/no extra cost. Root pruning, it would be easier to cut further out because diameter is smaller; less work to cut. maybe that is the tack to take toward a mor etree friendly procedure Unless someone here is a pro at moving mesquite then good luck lecturing; I won't.

In the US the bmp for moving bareroot is 38" root spread for a 3" caliper tree; how does that relate to these guys?

BMP = Best Means Possible.

pcarborist · 2nd February 2009, 06:42 PM

I'm a little surprised to see them use this technique on Prosopis. Prosopis is peculiar because it has a long taproot (they belong to group of plants known as phreatophytes) and my success with transplanting plants with a taproot is extremely low. It may have something to do with their large roots and their ability to store alot of reserves. But then again Prosopis is a riparian species and those types of plants have evolved in a changing environment therefore they tend to transplant reasonably well. In Las Vegas I saw an ecological restoration project where they used honey mesquite (P juliflora) and Fremont screwbean (P pubescens) cuttings and had good transplant success with drip irrigation so long as they could control the tamarix competition. Mother Nature will surprise you.

Eric Frei · 2nd February 2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

In the US the bmp for moving bareroot is 38" root spread for a 3" caliper tree; how does that relate to these guys?

BMP = Best Means Possible.

Hmmm, not enough info. Does that mean a 6" caliper tree gets 76" root spread etc? I think not.

Also, that's roughly a 6 x caliper ratio, please get us some more numbers on larger dia ... they're transplanting like 24" and 36" caliper trunks.

treevet · 3rd February 2009, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

pecans very good at codit,

BMP = Best Means Possible.

Not to be a stickler but.....improper use of term codit

and BMP refers to Best Management Practices.

newguy18 · 3rd February 2009, 04:01 AM

Personally,if trasporting large trees,if you have to lop all the branches and roots off,its better the tree be removed,imo.Although i believe you can pull permits in most areas to haul wider loads than the law normally allows,of course we come back to the issue of money and either greed or lack of money.I'm sure Mr.Al Awadi believes hes doing good,and in the long run,as long as there are no targets,those trees may do alright,but i doubt it.All malpractice imo and shouldn't be allowed.Transplanting large tres is a bad idea,unless it is preplanned for several month and great care is done to save as many branches and roots as possible,it may be more costly but if your gonna do it,make sure its done right.

treeseer · 3rd February 2009, 05:25 AM

The table only goes up to 3"; Dave can confirm this no doubt; given his expertise he no doubt has the current one on his shelf.

re species variance yes that is the whole point with Best Means Possible. The BMP's give what is considered the midrange but it would be nutso to say all trees fit in there.

Please pardon the use of codit as a verb; it does seem to apply. Re the character Codit in the Dendro series, last month i had 2 people ask me how the dog was. i said what dog they said you know, Codit...

shaun05 · 28th November 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I bet I could raise as many documents to support what this mob practices as there are documents to condemn the practice.

Such is the irony of the industry.

If the pruning were to be done to standing living trees one would call it malpractice. However should it be done to a transplant then is OK?

After all a transplant is seen as an ultimate saving of a tree that would otherwise be chipped and grubbed. But that's the case for many a tree in an urban yard that has simply outgrown it's location or perceived as a threat due to height. Would a lopped to half size tree be entertained as a safer tree (for the interim) and a saving as it wasn't removed?

Another thing to ponder.

Some great thoughts Eric!

I wonder if the same questions could be raised of tree removal! Should trees be removed simply because people don't like them or should people be made to take all reasonable (and perhaps unreasonable) steps to retain them?

Do tree companies argue for the removal of tree so that they can get the work rather than arguing for the tree?

And then it seems that two arborists can look at the same tree and come up with two completely different opinions. Are our opinions truly objective or are they always tarnished by our experiences and world view. If the latter then to what extent are our opinions distorted. Are we likely to find ourselves dealing with extreme adjustments like Ignaz Semmelweis did or are we at the peak of our understanding?

arborjockey · 28th November 2009, 02:31 PM

My only ? would be whats their success rate. Is it 90% and these practices have been handed down for 3000 years through the Mohammed N. AL Khan family and one day were going to figure out that the only way to do a successful transplant of a large Ghaf is to hack the crap out of it. I was told to leave as many apical meritems as possible above ground to stimulate it below ground after transplant. As a kid when my grandfather would propagate plumeria trees he would cut off a branch and throw down on the ground for up to 2 weeks in the shade. Then plant it. An old Hawaiian man told him to do it and his success rate is really high. Point being that modern arberculture is a great thing but certain practices that were used 5-10-25 years ago are outdated. But maybe the ones 1000-2000 years ago werent

cool pix and good find. wish i had mor time for this site

Eric Frei · 28th November 2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun05

Some great thoughts Eric!

I wonder if the same questions could be raised of tree removal! Should trees be removed simply because people don't like them or should people be made to take all reasonable (and perhaps unreasonable) steps to retain them?

Do tree companies argue for the removal of tree so that they can get the work rather than arguing for the tree?

And then it seems that two arborists can look at the same tree and come up with two completely different opinions. Are our opinions truly objective or are they always tarnished by our experiences and world view. If the latter then to what extent are our opinions distorted. Are we likely to find ourselves dealing with extreme adjustments like Ignaz Semmelweis did or are we at the peak of our understanding?

The biggst problem up here is protected trees and the dreaded phone call that goes like this .....

... "yeah hi, bla bla council told me that because my tree has a VPO on it I need to get an arborist report to cut it down".

Now councils ensure that they dont say that to people, and knowing how people phrase things to suit their agendas I might agree. I inform them that I make an assessment of the tree and offer recommendations of which 1 might be removal if warranted. However if the tree is healthy, stable, no signs of problems then most likely I will recommend that it stays. Removal is seen as the final option when many others have been exhausted.

Straight away an argument starts brewing .....

"but I want it gone"
"if you say it stays and it falls over are you paying for damages"
"it's big so it's dangerous"
"I'm not paying for report that says it stays"
"I'll get some-one else better who will get rid of it"

I telll them the costs of a visit, sometimes I arrive and the tree is a bloody great one, nothing wrong, and they flat out refuse to listen to you and of course you are not getting paid and leave. In some instances I do call council and have them make a file note that it is a great tree and any report that suggests removal needs to be interogated as there are some fools who'd write lies for a dollar.

So now a days I vet the call a lot more, if they're stubborn or start telling me my job and what they will and wont listen to I couldn't be bothered with them.

As far as unprotected trees go people are free to do as they like, if it's a grand tree and they want to cut it down and are allowed to cut it down then a fool walks away from a legit job. Only once I walked from a really really nice tree on principal that it should not be removed .... was removed anyway and I missed out on the job. People are getting less tolerant, I have had people wanting to remove nice Jacarandas because they drop purple flowers on their lawns. I have had people want rows of 4m high flowering grevilleas removed because the rainbow lorikeets wake them up too early in the morning .... do remember we do not have daylight saving and in summer the birds start squawking at 4am.

People do get pissed off with you not complying to their request ....

"look mate, if you dont want to quote it you might as well leave and I'll find some-one who does"
"I didn't call you for an argument mate, I just want the tree gone"
"if you dont like cutting trees down why do you advertise it"

It gets worse when the request is for a topping, in many cases they dont listen to you and hear the alternative of it being OK to top trees more often than your reasons for not doing it .... expect similar responses to above. And I assure you, up here 90% of pruning quotes commence as a topping request.

stirmantrees · 3rd December 2009, 03:04 PM

they seem to have some nice equipment, they seem to have plenty of labor, definitely spending a good chunk of change to do this. not sure where to be on this one. how are the trees doing?
i personally dont think ripping the stump out of the ground is the best option for transplant. but with all they are investing why not get a tree spade and do it like that.

eric, I am a personal property rights advocate myself. If there is no restrictions on removal and the customer has been given sound counsel and wants to remove it , then i will happily remove it. everytime.

1st February 2009, 07:24 PM	#2
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,030	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl Interesting...transplanting what appear large stumps is this de javu? I have not been involved in large transplants however I have transplanted smaller trees. We allways left the canopy on and a large cone shaped amount of dirt around the roots, althought I can see in this situation it would be hard to keep the sandy soil around the roots not that there much of them left even with the radical lopping of the branches there seems to be no consideration in trying to keep a little form they appear to be lopped off willy nilly. It says they are doing nicely?? in the first port of call sugesting they are going to transplant these stumps..errr..trunks to their final resting place..I hope not litterally. Have we any more pictures of these victims doing well? __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

1st February 2009, 07:55 PM	#3
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl The news site has more pics and of the area they are moved into but none of the trees they have moved so hard to say how successful they have been in getting these trees to survive even in the short term. I won't try to dominate this thread I suspect that most people know my opinion suggest if interested people read through this site on the species, I have no great knowledge of mesquite at all...The Current State of Knowledge on Prosopis juliflora Not suggesting that the FOA site is gospel either... Prosopis sp are extremely tough...and like other xerophytic species can tolerate extended droughts and increased saline conditions...in fact quite a remarkable tree all round. It is a real shame that given the clear recognition of the value of these trees there has not been a push to provide funding to permit the adaptation of some improvements to their method...it is very vrey brutal. When you have tree species that are so resiliant and persistant they will invariably survive the initial trauma but the impact on what would have been their life span and the consequences for the predisposition to latter failures is IMO undeniable. Ultimately one could argue well what are the practical alternatives in this instance...someone is paying for the trucks, frontend loaders cranes etc.. they are not short of plant machinery in that neck of the woods Tree spade could work very well in that situ I reckon...sand tracks of course! There are lots of ways things could be improved...just depends on the will and the funding.

1st February 2009, 08:32 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,814	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl I bet I could raise as many documents to support what this mob practices as there are documents to condemn the practice. Such is the irony of the industry. We have AS4373 which reckons dont lop trees, but it should be amended to unless transplanting stumps right? What about the radical removal of roots, to hell with the SRZ of the AS4970 document right? So the tree cops a double whammy, roots and canopy cut off. However like a quadriplegic on life support with some TLC it survives and grows. Does that make a Dr Frankenstein and arborist extraordinaire? Yeah, my posts are right out there, challenging the rhetoric of the industry. Deep down my gut feeling says all of this is rubbish. Why? Because in the vast majority of cases the reasoning is "due to mechanical and transportation constraints". Think about this carefully. The advocates for the said procedures use two strong reasons. 1/ Road, transport and equipment limitations, you simply are restricted by roads, bridges etc on how high or large your load is. 2/ The tree survives. Do realise that a trees appetite for survival is near infinite, even in death the seeds do germinate, roots can grow suckers and the oldest living tree on earth is but a sucker yet carries the label of the world's oldest tree due to genetic bonds to the root stock. Herein lies the anomaly, what is a tree and tree dignity? If the pruning were to be done to standing living trees one would call it malpractice. However should it be done to a transplant then is OK? After all a transplant is seen as an ultimate saving of a tree that would otherwise be chipped and grubbed. But that's the case for many a tree in an urban yard that has simply outgrown it's location or perceived as a threat due to height. Would a lopped to half size tree be entertained as a safer tree (for the interim) and a saving as it wasn't removed? Another thing to ponder. Laws, rules, standards generally are made post incident or problem. You know, the "crime" came along but no law dealt with it so lets make one ... just like lopping, just like butchered trees or those left with bugger all room on development sites. Lets see another example, oh credit is a good one. People get shark loans, nothing illegal about that, they know the terms prior to engagement however the govt realises those customers are somewhat ignorant and deprived of other avenues etc so regulates that market. Is the trunk and stump transplant market needing regulation? Are the suppliers of these services simply justifying their actions due to civil constraints like transport widths and heights? The trees simply need that treatment not for their own benefit but for the suppliers? Is the perfect root ball only 2.1m because that's what trees really need or that's what the machine cuts? Look at these pictures, would they have taken more canopy and roots had the truck been larger? Who's selling what here? I invite you all to really think this out and through plus make comment. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

2nd February 2009, 01:37 AM	#5
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl I think trees have dignity and as mentioned above, this should be a relevant consideration. The dis figuration of these trees in this seemingly Barbaric process seems to simply favor the profit column. These trees could be compared to a zoo bringing in lions and tigers and removing all their teeth and claws so the staff could feed and deal with them with less trouble, time and ultimately....less cost. The issues with these trees will come later in the form of decayed roots and stems from large internodal cuts that predispose them to entrance of decay- causing organisms and the weakness or loss of vitality that discourages compartmentalization. The dollars will have been handed out all around way prior to that and none will be given back. The knowledge is there, the standards need to be written and administered and followed or consequences dealt out.

2nd February 2009, 11:25 AM	#9
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 753	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl good links eric; shows that job 1 is to knwo your species. pecans very good at codit, and thast avocado man sounds like he knows a lot about dose and timing. Branch pruning of mesquite horrible and easy to show a better way at low/no extra cost. Root pruning, it would be easier to cut further out because diameter is smaller; less work to cut. maybe that is the tack to take toward a mor etree friendly procedure Unless someone here is a pro at moving mesquite then good luck lecturing; I won't. In the US the bmp for moving bareroot is 38" root spread for a 3" caliper tree; how does that relate to these guys? BMP = Best Means Possible.

2nd February 2009, 06:42 PM	#10
pcarborist Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: PC Posts: 177	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl I'm a little surprised to see them use this technique on Prosopis. Prosopis is peculiar because it has a long taproot (they belong to group of plants known as phreatophytes) and my success with transplanting plants with a taproot is extremely low. It may have something to do with their large roots and their ability to store alot of reserves. But then again Prosopis is a riparian species and those types of plants have evolved in a changing environment therefore they tend to transplant reasonably well. In Las Vegas I saw an ecological restoration project where they used honey mesquite (P juliflora) and Fremont screwbean (P pubescens) cuttings and had good transplant success with drip irrigation so long as they could control the tamarix competition. Mother Nature will surprise you. __________________ parkcityarborist

3rd February 2009, 04:01 AM	#13
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl Personally,if trasporting large trees,if you have to lop all the branches and roots off,its better the tree be removed,imo.Although i believe you can pull permits in most areas to haul wider loads than the law normally allows,of course we come back to the issue of money and either greed or lack of money.I'm sure Mr.Al Awadi believes hes doing good,and in the long run,as long as there are no targets,those trees may do alright,but i doubt it.All malpractice imo and shouldn't be allowed.Transplanting large tres is a bad idea,unless it is preplanned for several month and great care is done to save as many branches and roots as possible,it may be more costly but if your gonna do it,make sure its done right. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

3rd February 2009, 05:25 AM	#14
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 753	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl The table only goes up to 3"; Dave can confirm this no doubt; given his expertise he no doubt has the current one on his shelf. re species variance yes that is the whole point with Best Means Possible. The BMP's give what is considered the midrange but it would be nutso to say all trees fit in there. Please pardon the use of codit as a verb; it does seem to apply. Re the character Codit in the Dendro series, last month i had 2 people ask me how the dog was. i said what dog they said you know, Codit...

28th November 2009, 02:31 PM	#16
arborjockey Mature tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: hawaii. ohio. oregon. california Posts: 260	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl My only ? would be whats their success rate. Is it 90% and these practices have been handed down for 3000 years through the Mohammed N. AL Khan family and one day were going to figure out that the only way to do a successful transplant of a large Ghaf is to hack the crap out of it. I was told to leave as many apical meritems as possible above ground to stimulate it below ground after transplant. As a kid when my grandfather would propagate plumeria trees he would cut off a branch and throw down on the ground for up to 2 weeks in the shade. Then plant it. An old Hawaiian man told him to do it and his success rate is really high. Point being that modern arberculture is a great thing but certain practices that were used 5-10-25 years ago are outdated. But maybe the ones 1000-2000 years ago werent cool pix and good find. wish i had mor time for this site

3rd December 2009, 03:04 PM	#18
stirmantrees Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: oviedo, fl Posts: 469	Re: Heavy pruning prior to transplanting\| transplanting stumps\| Advanced Tree Transpl they seem to have some nice equipment, they seem to have plenty of labor, definitely spending a good chunk of change to do this. not sure where to be on this one. how are the trees doing? i personally dont think ripping the stump out of the ground is the best option for transplant. but with all they are investing why not get a tree spade and do it like that. eric, I am a personal property rights advocate myself. If there is no restrictions on removal and the customer has been given sound counsel and wants to remove it , then i will happily remove it. everytime.

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