Have you miss-quoted?

Daniel Janjic

Have you ever had the feeling when you turn up to do a job that you may have quoted a while back and thought... "Oooh bugger, this is bigger than it looked!"

I know how I handle the situation, though am interested to see if others have seen a tree grow a third in a month!

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Cheer's

Dano

http://www.treelove.com.au

Apocalypsse

My old boss failed @ this soo hard when I was with him. Quoting to do jobs at his speed instead of at the speed of 2 people who have been in the industry for a month. Or taking soo long to get to a job someone has already built new stuff around the tree requiring more care and time.

Joshua Rugg

we miss quoted 2 queen palm removals once. they wanted the stumps gone and turns out that there was a maui electric service box under on of the palm stumps. we ended up able to grind one stump but the other had to be taken out with picks and shovels in 90 degree heat x_x

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dingo

Quite often I look at a tree and I'm positive it can all fit in one ute load, but realistically I should look at buying a small truck.

Last week I removed a large limb from a tree which was on the property of my customers neighbour. the customer had mentioned that the neighbour may want a nearby limb removed also- threw that in on same price. On the day of the work we r running a bit behind from the previous job. Luckily for me the neighbour never got home in time to confirm absolutely that they wanted the limb removed. when they got home I was able to tee up a separate job including a few other bits and pieces. I was fortunate the way it worked out but i need to get out of the habit of throwing in items that are substantial enough to cost me.

KevinE

I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I broke my own rule last week; quoted the job ($450) & she asks for a pensioner discount (I don't usually give them), so I dropped $25 off. I finished the job much quicker than anticipated, but it was a bugger of a job. So I went soft & said, "make it $360" She was pleased as punch & liked the job too. Anyway, she booked me in for more work on Tuesday, so I turned up, all happy & ready to go, but she want's to know what my hourly rate is? I explained that I don't have an hourly rate, I quote the job & if she's happy, then that's the price. Her friend has told her that she has a guy who'll do it for $40 p/h. I advised her to use him. She said she didn't want to, she wanted me to do it. I tried to explain that I have thousands of $$$ invested in equipment that makes the job quicker & easier for me and that he would likely be there 3 times longer than me, so I was actually likely to be cheaper, but I don't think she got it. She seemed focused on $40 p/h. I did the job (at the quoted price) & she tried to book me in for more work, but when I gave her the price, I could tell she thought it was too much. She still wanted me to do it though, but I don't think I will. The trust has gone!

bill24

Know what you mean Kev, at times it doesn't 'pay' to work to hard and to fast, some folks don't recognise how much you're putting in with equipment $$ and efficiency.

With a quick little remote control stump grinder I can knock a lot of jobs over pretty quick, but know at times when they spend all the time watching that it would be better to have the slew slowed down and take longer.....to keep the customer happy and make them think they are getting better value for money because you were engaged on their job longer. Outcome the same of course.

I don't mind a bit of a misquote (low) thats takes longer to do as its just my time, the ones I hate are when I smash cutters/pockets and find steel in trees and stumps and they do cost $$$$'s.

When you get through a job quicker/easier than quoted I reckon it pays to still keep to the quote pretty closely, makes up for the mongrel ones !

What do you Aus. blokes reckon its worth a hour cutting fallen firewood limbs up, I hook in and use the 026 on small stuff and 066 on the heavier end....lot of that at the moment with older small acreage owners.

$50/hr. to cut up and leave on the ground .. is that a misquote ?

highlandtrees

i would say any chain saw work especially large saws AT LEAST $65 dollar per hour would be proably the right money u gotta take into concideration chain oil fuel insurances u gotta remember if its lying on the ground it going to be dirty blunts the chain straight away

KevinE

I don't think you can have a firm rate using a chainsaw, there are too many variables. I don't think $50 is enough though Bill. The trouble is that supply/demand may kick in & you could loose the work to someone with a chainsaw who is just after some pocket money. Which is no good if you want that work. I guess I'm lucky as there's plenty of other work available here, I won't cut firewood unless it's green.

Brent Ferris

I don't normally cut firewood, unless I have cut the tree.

And I hear you Kevin about the hourly rate, but it doesn't usually pay to knock the other guy. Better to say, as you did, go hire him.

Not too many clients are interested in the spiel about pricey equipment, and efficiency, or even insurance -- they have that $/hour rate fixed in mind.

I generally quote by the job (price by how long I expect the job to take, but don't reveal that to the client) and if the client is home, and watching and the job is going better than expected, slow things down so the client feels they're getting better value. Or knock a bit off the price.
THe problem there comes when they want more work done. If they want this $/hour price, it might be better to ask how long the other fellow would take, and knowing how long you would take -- go from there. After all, it is more about how the job will be done, and how well it will be done -- and sometimes distracting the client's thinking to this gets them away from price.

I usually say my policy is that my price is firm, so if the job takes longer than expected, they don't pay anymore. And if they ask, if the job takes less time, will I charge less? I say, I will be happy to do it that way, if this also means, that if the job takes longer, I can charge more. If you are getting the job, the firm price becomes more attractive because they can count on it.

I do run into problems when the neighbour is home, and looks out sporadically, and always manages to see when we are taking a break and then tells the client they just sat around all day. THen I need to remind the client, the work is based on the job, and not by the hour, so if it takes longer, it is my problem. But some people are fixated by hourly rates (prob how they get paid) and you can't make any headway.

Lately I find a lot of people wait until you quote the job, and then ask if there is a discount for seniors(10% or more), or for referrals, or for repeat work or for cash(30%). I say I accept cash or cheque - it all has to be declared. And for discounts, I generally say I try to do the best job I can, and if I discount the price and make it cheaper, I would have to do the job more poorly, which is against my policy, and do they really want the job more poorly done? Most people want the best possible job, just cheap.
Something I have been considering is a discount for a referral that goes ahead -- haven't done it yet, but have thought about it,

You can make lots of arguments, but those people want it cheap. After all I can do it for free, but I wouldn't be in business long. They just feel work should cost less, or they are special and deserve less.
As one of my clients once said
-- Buy low, sell high, collect early, pay late.

Generally the people who want it cheap, don't want to pay more if things go wrong, and you are so frustrated your costs are barely covered (or not) never mind $$$ for you, in the end, it pays not to do the work for them. And they often pay late, or not at all. Asking for a 25% deposit has gotten rid of a lot of "cheap potential" clients.

I would be inclined to say, this is my price, if you want someone cheaper, go hire them. If you're not satisfied with their job, I can always come back and see if can help you. BUt I price by the job, and that price is set by the kind of work I like to do, and what people expect. And leave it at that.
THe worst that will come out of this, is you are too pricey for that client. BUt many people associate price with quality. And if she tells her friends you are too pricey, they may well call you because they feel you give better value.

A bit run on, but I have these problems too, like most of us, I imagine.

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My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

bill24

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What is the best way to handle it Dano, I just soldier on, do it and come away a bit wiser hoping it leads to repeat work with the customer.

Usually tell the customer (nicely of course) I underquoted after they pay, and not to tell mates pls. that I can always quote/work that low.

Interesting topic you started !

bill24

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Good replies, thanks gents, yes - the amount of firewood knocked out for them in a couple of hours with the 026/066 would be a days work or more more a lot of home owners/people, $50 may be a bit on the cheap side.

The majority of these folks have been multiple jobs including trees/stumps so I suppose I try to help them out, Mrs. Bill says it keeps me off the streets and out of mischief..

Overall, with over / underquoting I think its important to keep the quality of the job to a consistently high standard regardless of the profit margin, the quality of the work is what your local rep. floats on.

Brent Ferris

I think one of the worst experiences of miss-quoting, is estimating the job, and being called after about a month to go ahead-- for the same price--, only to find the yard is now full of new plantings, and they're saying, "You will be sure not to damage anything, won't you?"

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Apocalypsse

Seen some people add conditions to their quote for cases like this. Something along the lines of; "Quote is for area as it currently is, any additions, construction, works, etc will require new quote". Its soo annoying when you rock up to a job with old info, like construction begins after you finish the job but when you get there its already done.

Daniel Janjic

Thanks for all your replies, it's good to see so many honest positive opinions.

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Cheer's

Dano

http://www.treelove.com.au

dingo

It suprises me that there are many customers that want to harp on about an hourly rate... for tasks like firewood processing it is fair enough but thats where it should end. Not many people decide to go into business for themselves so that they can be paid an hourly rate.

dingo

im new to the game incase people didnt already know. Seems i could be charging more on stump grinding than i have been, i haven't missed a quote since day one, my last one i quoted the landscaper $100- he quoted the client $200-the lanscaper who is a childhood friend of mine said give you $150 get a bit of a drink out of it....

job done quickish so put in bit of extra time shovelling soil but only cos the pay was generous... until the lanscaper my old mate asks me if Im happy to take $100 (as opposed to the $150 he mentioned).

My point is that I quoted a price and I should honour it, comes down to being proffesional enough to pay for your own mistakes. To reneg on a quote before work commences isnt what customers want to hear but it isn't unethical.

If you want to rush in as charlie cheap on quoting habitually and then realise that you underquoted. Its pretty poor form to be asking for more, unles you made less than the groundy then you should take a groundies day pay.

Brent Ferris

There are a number of days that my groundman makes more than me. After all, my pay comes after him, after expenses, after bills. He averages $15 per hour (paid by the day). Lots of days I am lucky if I can claim $10 per hour, sometimes only $5/hour, on really bad days, he takes all there is. BUt then there are some better days, when all goes well to help make up for the duds.

The only way I ask for more at the end of a job, is if more work needs to be done, and it is usually a special request by the client. IF it is just one or two easily removed limbs, I typically take them out -- and make a note on the bill they were removed at no charge. Costs a bit more, sometimes quite a bit more, but does enhance good will, and more likely to get referrals. And it is far easier to remove an extra branch or two while still in the tree, then come back another day to remove a limb that doesn't look right, or doesn't sit right with the client, Goodwill is hard to generate -- enhance every chance you get -- just be sure to do it honestly, sincerely, and humbly.

I understand your frustration of being promised an extra $50. BUt, myself, I quote firm prices, do the job or a bit extra for the price, and if extra is given -- it is a bonus. Verbal offerings are worth just as much as the paper they are printed on -- no paper, no worth -- but don't let that tarnish the friendship you have.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

dingo

What I meant to illustrate is that I'm happy to take the amount that I quoted- however it has been a nice little lesson for me to learn that I could be charging a bit more
certainly no hard feelings about the other $50

Brent Ferris

Sometimes you can charge more, and then if the client wants to beat you down, you have a lower limit you can go to without risking loss, and yet gaining goodwill. Often though, those people refer you to others with the comment -- "Just insist you want it done for less, and he'll lower the price."

In your case, you are raising the price 50%, and unless you are below the industry standard you may find you get a lot less work. And the price difference might have applied only to that client -- you have to look at their yard, consider how they dressed, lived, treated people and decide if they represent most of your clientele or they are on the side where more money isn't an issue. Or the price might have been part of the landscaper's package, where most of work cost a lot more, and $200 for the stump seemed like a bargain.

If you have so much work you don't know what to do with it all, or don't know how you'll get it all done, raising prices 50% can solve scheduling work real quick, but can also leave you out of work.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Branching Out TreeCare

I tend to charge on peoples' ability to pay... Which is often guaged by reading their priorities about what they consider important. Tree lovers are often more likely to pay more for quality outcomes. The way you sell yourself , conduct initial negotiations and instill confidence is usually the tipping point in being awarded the work. Clear concise communication is so important. Having the clients expectation of the out come match your intentions before the work is done is imperative. People are happy to pay your price if their expectations have been met.
There are guys in the industry that do not serve the industry at all. What i mean by that is, that, some are half price on what i charge and are busy 100% of the time...accordingly they wear themselves out , and their workers, who they pay stuff all. Yes they capture market share as the word gets around that they do the same work for cheap but often they soon fizzle out and shut down their business. What that then does, is knock the profit out of the industry , unfairly exploit their workers and poeple expect work done for stuff all. Thats exactly what Taylor Trees in Northland NZ did and they recession began long before the global down turn. He's not around any more.
I am consistantly higher priced than all my competitors and what that does is keep the industry inflated so that if other professionals are quoting against you there is going to be money in it for them if they get the job. Accordingly they respect your stance as you serve the industry by giving it the respect for hard work that is deserved. Another up side of being busy 50% of the time at double the price ( of the Cheapies ) is that you have 50% more time to do a higher quality job.
Of course you have to be confident in the first place but sure as mustard if you keep your business small and efficient you can easily compete with the big corporations who have heaps of over heads.
Never under sell yourself!
If you're not getting the jobs and your quoted price try value adding ,offering to do more work than what they expect. The clean up is sooooooooooo important. Always do more work than they expect and in that alone the clients expectation will be far exceeded. Often the last thing the client wants is to come home at the end of the day and start cleaning up their yard.

I have always said " confidence is like money" its only a problem if you "havent got it ".

You'll always get more than you've bargained for when you deal with Paul Gosling - Ambassador for Trees - NZ.

If you find you are busy 50% of the time at double the price then you have more time to either market yourself further or simply enjoy the fruit of your labours and go fishing . Reviving your body after giving 100% to your work.

KevinE

The guy who lives next door to me is a retired house painting contractor, he once told me that the best advice he ever got on quotes in over 40 years in business was that if you're getting more than 3 of every 5 you bid, you're too cheap.

That may be true when everything is good & there's plenty of work around, but I think it can depend on your circumstances & what's going on where you live & work. There's plenty of work here most of the time, so I can pick & choose what work I want to do most of the year. August & February are the 2 exceptions here; the weather in August is shitty here & nobody ventures outside much, so tree work drops right off. Unfortunately the August weather has come early this year! Which is a pain, because I'd planned ahead & we are off on a trip up north for the whole of August. So I'm having to pretty much take whatever comes my way ATM or sit at home. Late January/into February is usually as hot as hell here, the kids have just gone back to school & the Christmas bills have started to roll in, so work drops off then too.

The rest of the year, I quote the price I think will get me the jobs I want.