Fungus, dirt and rot.

treeseer

See the pic near the bottom with those honkin' conks. Soil and mulch up on stem. Why not remove soil to make fungus drier and rot slower?



Foto's Support Anne Frank Tree

Eric Frei

Yeah, some nice sized ones there.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________

treeseer

Yup that's the pic; thanks for pulling it out.

Is there a reason to keep dirt/soil on a stem where there is rot inside?

The decay fungus is connected to the earth--why not break that connection and try to deny the pathogen those resources?

pcarborist

Once you clean the soil away. I have often wondered if a high-powered hair drier could be used to dry the wound out and slow down the spread of fungus especially in pocket rot areas or hollow trees? You would probably need to scribe away dead bark first. Just curious, anyone have any experience using this technique or something similar?

__________________
parkcityarborist

ArborealTerror

I have been told that the main body of the fungus is inside the tree beneath the cambium and that the part you see in the photo is just the fruiting body. If this is true then soild removal / hairdryer would not work. Is it true?

P.S. Wicked size though!

TreeDimensional

Would alcohol work to desicate the fruiting body? Methol or ethol alcohol wouldn't harm the tree any more than the fungi, and acts to dry what it touches!

Kinda like a person with a bad hang-over, they are thirsty cause they didn't have enough to drink (alcohol) the night before!

ArborealTerror

TD - Like your thinking. Some kind of topical poison that transported itself through the fungus like roundup does on plants would be good to. The only thing is that these fungi are protists and i beleive they are a colony of unicellular organisms rather than a multi-cellular organism with a vascular transport system, so you would only kill what you touched.

Any protist experts out there? how do you kill it?

OutofMytree

Nuke the sucker!

newguy18

If it were me,inject the fungi with rubbing alcohol[sounds crazy i know]after the fugi dies,which it probabley will,then dry out all tight pockets and crevices with an air compressor and a blow gun,just a theory.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

ArborealTerror

Your right Bill. Wasting alcohol on Fungi does sound crazy.

Injecting is a good idea but once agaiin you have the problem of no vascular system to transport it and also it is resident within the tree tissues so whatever you inject will have an effect on the tree as well, and will be localised.

That being said there is sure to be chemicals out there that have an adverse effect on fungi but not on plant tissue.

The other thing that occurs to me is that while the fungi is consuming structural wood it is also effectively replacing it. Removal of the fungi would further adversely affect the structural integrity of the tree.

And yes OoMT, thermonuclear devices are probably not the answer either.

treeseer

the search goes on. Huh? With what?

newguy18

So no vascular system means you have to inject several areas,maybe not with rubbing alcohol,but something,chances are that whatever part of the tre the fungi is attached to is decayed,i'm pretty sure it won't hurt that part of the tree much,oh and what exactly is the fungi replacing in the tree?

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Garry Brockley

Fresh air presumably

__________________

pcarborist

AT, fungi are not protists, they belong to their own kingdom. Fungi can be unicellular, filamentous or plasmodial and most have cell walls containing chitin. Chitin is the major component of the exoskeleton of insects. Just another example of why biologists believe fungi are closer related to animals rather than plants.

__________________
parkcityarborist

OutofMytree

I slapped AT on the back of the head Gibbs style (watch NCIS you will soon see what I mean) when he posted about fungi replacing wood tissue. What colour is red Adam???

willem

Nice pics treeseer !!

Sean Freeman

Try approaching the question from the other direction....what would you provide the fungi (specific species) if you wanted to get it to establish in the wood tissue and then grow with vigour and speed.

The vast majority of the fungi we see on trees/wood are not causing extensive decay, but having acknowledged that lets focus on the ones that do....

Moisture content is critical to any fungi but it is not quite as simple as thinking that wet conditions lead to fungal colonisation and growth.

Just like the germination of any spore the balance between moisture and oxygen is fundemental to the process....remember that within wood tissues embolism (rupture of cellular integrity, physical injury) which leads to the loss of moisture is almost always part of the unfortunate chain of events that lead to fungal colonisation of the tree.

It would seem impossible to imagine a scenario outside of the lab where a single fungi would be present and completing its lfie cycle alone without the presence and influence of many many others....why does this matter?

Because this diversity of fungal actors ever present makes it very difficult for the tree and for us to mount a single effective defence against them.

The fungi that are able to overwhelm the chemical and physical defences of the tree in the outer portions of tree anatomy...the sap wood....the compounds produced by trees include resins suberins phenolic acids, turpenes and so on, some species of fungi are able to actively suppress the production of these antifungal compounds....chemical war ensues..but this is a war limited to the outer external portions of the tree, these wound rotting fungi are able to establish a foothold occupying wood tissue and maintaining their own chemical perimeters, as moisture levels in the damaged wood tissues fall the fungi are able to advance gaining more and more volume of tissue to be digested.

These initial fungal invaders are rarely the ones that we focus on, since they seem on the whole to be unable to move deeper into the tree, but btheir actions have breached the outer initial defences of the tree....and desiccation of wood tissues is a critical element in their success...indeed cellular dysfunction, the loss of control over moisture level within and between cells is a really dangerous state of affairs for any tree.

I don't think the hair drier is such a great idea.

treeseer

Hmm I did not know that drying was that bad. What about natural drying by evaporation

Sean Freeman

Don't think evaporation is equatable to the dessication of inter and intra cellular fluids resulting from the rupturing of wood tissues.

But Guy what I am getting at is that it is the loss of control by the tree that is the problem and that focussing on only one part of the interralated factors that lead to and provide conducive conditions for fungal colonisation is not all that helpful.

TreeDimensional

There could be two other options available IF desication isn't the answer. In my hardiness zone the trees naturally dessicate their cells, in order to prevent rupture during the long cold winter.

What would happen IF the fungi was attacked with a very quick blast of cold? I am thinking liquid nitrogen would cause the fungus to rapidly freeze, causing the cells (full of moisture) to burst and die. OR What if the infected area was deprived of oxygen for a time. Perhaps an injection of carbon dioxide for a prolonged period might do the trick. Of course some sort of tent like they use in house fumigation would be in order. I think that you might just want to fumigate the area of active infection rather than the whole tree.

What the heck would I know though, I'm just a farmer and a CA. But I didn't get mine out of a Corn Flakes box!

BTW, Sean that was a great response to this thread.

pcarborist

Sean, if I understand you correctly, using a hair drier can be just as bad for the host (tree) as the parasite (fungi)?

__________________
parkcityarborist

treeseer

Well Sean I agree that there are other factors that deserve some focus. However this area (soil-infection interface, and breaking that connection) has not had much attention so no harm in talking about it eh?

Is there a general prioritization of the others that you would suggest?

O and this 'control" you speak of--interesting use of the word--not quite anthropomorphic, somehow accurate--never thought of it that way.

Sean Freeman

Look fella's this is all IMO, ok based on my reading and discussions (albe they brief with Francis and other mycologists about not these specific questions but general ones on the topic of what we /they do know and what assistance that knowledge understanding might be to Arborists)

pc..I personally think that if at the point of injury, say tree hit by excavator, you did try to dry out the surface by whatever means then yes it would be to the advatage of the fungi that tend to be the first colonists of such sites.
To take the exposed wood tissues through desication to the point where they were a hostile environment to wound decay fungi I personally believe you would be doing as much harm to the remaining intact wood tissues around the injury site as to the potential fungal pests.

I just re-read that answer I can be a verbose bugger....the answer is yes pc IMO using a hair drier can be just as bad for the host (tree) as the parasite (fungi).

You are right Guy sorry I got lost in my own little loop, no reason to leave the altered grade where it exists.


Hmmm that is the question isn't it? Not sure I have a good answer, or one that is of much use to anyone confronted with a tree with such advanced wood decay fungi....beyond of course doing all that we can to improve the health of the tree and its live root system, always being very up front about documenting what we understand the target to be given (in a case like the Anne Frank Tree) the known impacts on wood tissue strength and integrity that a wood decay fungi like Ganoderma can have.

Personally I always recommend the use of Trichoderma spp solutions where known root injuries are to occur (construction sites for example) I will also recommend the application of Pseudomonas fluorescens solution where Phellinus noxious is known to be present, your local council should be able to advise you if records of positive ID of specific wood decay fungi exist in your area, if not them then perhaps the local Uni or college in the microbiology dept.

ArborealTerror

PC - The kingdom they belong to is known as PROTISTA - google it!

Regarding the statement that the fungi replaces structural wood - excuse me, I was having a blonde moment.

However what I was thinking is that the fungi probably only attacks already dead wood - like I believe termites do (I know this is a contentious view). Rather than replacing it with fresh air it replaces it with fungal cells. These cells would not offer any structural support however might effectively protect adjacent 'live' wood cells in much the same way that a layer of oxide protects aluminium from further rusting.

As far as the treatment of the fungi goes what about using something good for the tree that may overload the fungi. We have just started using insertable nutrient bullets to treat seridium canker in cypress. It effectively gives the tree a big wack of soluble nutrients straight into it's vascular tissues. Effectively it is intravenuous fertiliser. What I am thinking is that if these were inserted into the area with the fungi, it will firstly help the tree and secondly might cause a nutrient overload for the fungi. As we have the bullets already I may try this out the next time I see a fungi affected tree. Will keep y'all posted.

Eric Frei

I believe there's a flaw in your logic, fungi often create a fruiting body and hollows, it's not like they're expandable foam. When a fungi is good and done there's little left but perhaps a conk.

No-ones brought up cauterizing, get an oxy blow torch and crisp the area ... you ever seen fungi growing off a char burnt log? Of course then below the charred surface at some point will be moist wood for colonization.

Moisture levels need to drop below 20% for fungi to stop, pretty hard to do in a living tree out in the weather.

__________________

ArborealTerror

Yes, I daresay you are right. I haven't done a proper PM on a fungi affected tree, will add it to my to do list.

A blowtorch??? I hope Bill's not reading this.....

Sean Freeman

Eric brings up a fascinating bit of info there, in ancient Japan some of the builders would do just that to protect a particular wooden structure from decay.

Here is a close up of a section of the Murin'an Garden wall Kyoto



I would have to agree the evidence is overwhelming that this type of treatment has proved effective at limiting the colonisationof the wood tissues by decay fungi.

Attached Thumbnails

 

treeseer

First, let's credit willem with the link to the pictures.

Thanks willem!

Re cauterization, this resembles the state that live oak Quercus virginiana and other trees get where the wood gets to be like armor; no cracking and no decay, for decades.

I wanna hear more details on these fert bullets for seiridium--please start another thread if you have the info.

ArborealTerror

Hi TS - we have only just got them and done the first application. The package claims 45 days to see a result so it will be towards end of January. The two Lleyland cyprus we treated were only lightly affected as well so we don't expect a dramatic difference. That said we are experiencing a bit of an epidemic here so there will be plenty more opportunities. Will start a new thread as soon as we have some results.

newguy18

i won't take a blow torch to any trees,however palms are a possibility,might make clean up a breeze.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler