Formative pruning is now hacking

Eric Frei

Well, nearly every day you see hopeless reporting. How the hell did this crap get in the paper?

Anger over Kurunjang tree pruning - Council - News - Melton Leader
I commented on the story, lets see if they publish it. I wrote:-

It first starts out as a branch removed from a perfectly healthy tree. Then it migrates to being hacked and further degenerates into "hacked down a perfectly healthy tree" finishing off with "they just hacked it down".

What great sensationalism reporting, the council own the tree and do not have to give permission to formatively prune it. It is better to prune early and shape the tree to suit the environment when it is small, but it is a lot better for "news" to publish such rubbish.

The council did a good job and the KURUNJANG man should get some knowledge before making such a fool of himself.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________

Apocalypsse

I know Council doesn't do the zone pruning, its all done by contractors. The picture says it all, the old man who doesn't like anyone touching 'his' tree. I get the same problem in my job, where people of the older generation think the tree belongs to them and not council. Any cutting done on it is bad and if you continue to do the job council pays for they call up council to complain.

I doubt Eric's comment will be posted, it just doesn't flow with their biased view in that article.

George Valentine

Well, I just can't believe this guys stupidity and the absolute waste of time to make it to the news. Aren't there issues that the media would thing more worth of their time and expense, and not giving the impression that they (the press) as better things to do with their time.

Now, this also shows the ignorance of the person that wrote the article and or the person that accepted/approved it to be printed...???

Isn't that correct that by law, ignorance is no excuse...???
Now, how does one grade, pure stupidity...???


Cheer
George

KevinE

I sometimes wonder if local rags knowingly flame with stories like this, waiting for the shit storm that comes in response, in an attempt at creating a controversy where there is none?

Ironically, I planted a whole bunch of red flowering gums at Elizabeth TAFE a couple of years ago & the assets manager there was quite determined in ensuring that we did formative pruning on them while they were young to ensure they matured with a good structure.

George Valentine

I don't have to go far to see how little some people know about trees and all aspects involved with them, as just about a couple of hours ago 2:30pm on the 26/11/2011, I spotted the nice Platypus type Gum planted on the other side of my driveway, had one large branch well too low over the walkway the council built last year, which has a lot of traffic including a number of people on motorized wheel-chairs.

I walked over and I saw that the branch has been hit by a truck, possibly a removable truck as the people living in that house, a young couple with a couple of young kids, has just moved in a few months ago, as tenants.

The weather has been extremely windy recently and I could see the large slip through the branch at the impact location to be opening and closing as the branch would sway with the wind so I returned to the house and come out with a camera, chainsaw and some safety gear. Walked to the neighbours front door as I could see the 2 kids playing outside, within 3 meters from that branch so I knew, they were home.

The young man come to the door and I asked him to follow me to the tree on the front driveway, between is fence and the cemented walkway. I pointed out to the damaged branch and said, "mate, this damn heavy branch is totally split and will come down at any moment with this wind so, I'm going to take some pics and cut it down before someone gets badly hurt...!"

He replied saying, " yeah, well..., I knew the branch has been hit but I don't want to touch it (he meant cut it) as I don't want to have any problems with the local Council..."

After I gave him a big mouth full for his irresponsible behaviour towards his own family, property and anyone else that uses that walkway, I got the camera, took some pics and got the chainsaw on, getting the branch down and cut into pieces, in minutes.

While I was doing this, he kept saying that I was going to bring troubles to him by the council so and after I told him that was his mess to clean up (I took any usable wood away...!) and that, if he was ever approached by anyone in regards to the branch, for him to put them regardless who, in my drive way/house direction...!

I just couldn't make him realise that, from the moment I identify the dangerous target, if I would walk away doing nothing and someone would get badly hurt from it, I would be liable and that I wasn't going to allow to happen so, after I identified the target I took the necessary action under my own experience with trees and chainsaw operation to eliminate the risk all together, not compromising anything or anyone, including the tree itself, apart from my own time and equipment...!

Now, I'm not sure who owns that tree, if the council or the house owner and in reality, I don't care, if I'm asked at any time for my justification to my actions, I have the pics and the full section of the damaged branch put a side, if necessary. I will defend my decision and my actions right to the point that I have the fellow, dressed in black with a white wig, in front of me, if necessary...!

Someone would be asking...! but, what does this have to do with the opening post...???
Well, it demonstrate what I said before, about some people's ignorance and stupidity when it comes to trees, just no idea...!

PS: I just realized that I didn't take any pics after I cut the bad branch you I just went out to the front gate in my pyjamas and took the last 2 pics, nice tree, huh...?

I'm done here...!

Cheers
George

Attached Thumbnails

           

 

George Valentine

What a can of worms we've got on this topic...!

I could not pass this opportunity to give another example of the unbelievable and pure stupidity and this time I'm knocking at the council's door with this one...!

In an area where too many people are getting either killed or smashed by falling large branches/trees that were planted or, are under the council's responsibility, the pics bellow are from a Gum tree that I noticed with an extreme lean to the road, this was in 2005 when I first moved to SA.

The tree is over the main road to one of the Fleureau Peninsula towns, expanding at fast rate and a town where I lived for the first year in SA. I used that road every day and every time I looked up concerned, particularly in those nasty stormy and windy days.

When I left that small town, one of the things that I was pleased with, was the fact that we didn't have to drive under that tree any more and since that time, we had no need to go that way and in my thoughts I was sure that the nasty tree would have either had fallen or have been removed by the local council, before someone would get killed buy it...!

Last week I had to go that way to see a couple of very old Olive trees that have became available for removal and I got the biggest shock of my life when I looked and saw the damn tree still there and leaning even more than before.

I had to stop and take a couple of pics of it, as I can't believe that the council haven't taken it out...!

I don't know about you but, would you like to have to drive everyday and possible a few times daily under that gum tree...???

Now, what will it take to get the council to remove this dangerous tree...??? is the answer, "when someone get's killed by it"...???
Are we still allowing councils to get away with these type of situations...???

Shame on us...!

Cheers
George

Attached Thumbnails

   

pukunui

Nyodine are you an Arborist? For some reason i was under the impression that you aren't. So im not exactly sure what qualifies you to make all these judgements you are making about tree hazard. (apologies if i've mistaken you for someone else and you are a qualified arborist)

Personally i'd be pissed off if my neighbour came over and gave me a "big mouth full" when i said i didn't want to mess with a council tree. In fact i'd probably call the council and tell them someone was about to have a go at one of their trees with a saw.

Also what's with the "I told him that was his mess to clean up" ? You bang on the guys door, have a go at him for not removing a branch because he doesn't want council problems then you take to the tree yourself and leave a pile of rubbish for him to clean up. It reminds me of what the door knockers do to old ladies. Bang on the door, tell them a tree needs to go and not to worry about council, then leave a huge mess behind when they get what they want.

I really don't think you have the right to be making judgements or doing work on trees that aren't yours. If it was that bad why not mark the area with traffic cones and call the council?


As for the leaning gum. Hard to tell from those pics but i'd say that the fact that it's been leaning like that for 6 years might suggest that it's not as hazardous as you think. That may not be the case but it would certainly need more assessment than just observing it's lean.


On the original post. What a non story beat up. the guy has no clue and the journo probably has less of a clue. Hope they post your comment on there eric.

KevinE

If he (or someone else) does call the council, you are in all kinds of trouble Nyodine! The LGA provides massive penalties for anyone interfering with council trees in SA, which is why most tree guys will never touch them, even if the home owner wants them to. The last fine I heard about was $10,000 & he (homeowner) had to pay for replacement & maintenance of the tree in question.

Eric Frei

Nyodine, no offence but I was waiting for your public flogging.

A missed issue.

Target refers to what the tree may fall on, not the tree. So you identified the dangerous target, which was not the tree as the tree is not the target. Often we say move the target to reduce risk, move the park bench from under the tree or tape the area off etc.

We also refer to correct pruning cuts as "target cuts". Different meaning though, we are cutting to target as in cutting to the right spot and the right angle.

Once you identify a risk (which is likelihood of failure x consequence of harm/damage) you then have options.

From the pictures it seems to me that there was not much more of an option than doing what you did, seems there was little opportunity of a crown lift and little opportunity to reduction prune. Usually the clearance above footpaths is 2.5m. So I do not think council would have done much different.

You are not liable, that is a burden you have placed upon your own shoulders, and it may have been done so to satisfy your actions. Whether it was preconceived prior to the cutting of the limb or after we will not know, but to say you were compelled by some 'duty" is inaccurate.

Now the leaning trees, more data is required however it does look bad. Looks like the sides of the road are mounded up. Maybe the council has been monitoring subsidence? Maybe they have data to suggest the trees are OK? Maybe a simple phone call or email would help.

__________________

Paul Toivonen

There are always going to be problems when you allow non-qualified "hacks" take a contract.
There are plenty of tree removal experts who wouldnt know what the term "formative" means.
Same as so-called brickies who have never laid a "face" brick.
I was taught by a pro-arborist who describes a cut like the one in the photo; want of a better term "Those kind of cuts will f*#k the tree".

George Valentine

pukunui
Thanks for taking the time to read my posts and by expression YOUR views...!
Off course that is your right to think that way, as we don't know each other, otherwise I believe, you would be a little more understanding of my actions, and the motivation behind it so, I was certain that my post would create reactions such as your, and I'm OK with it, really...!

You may not agree with my judgment and actions, and I don't want to get into an argument here (I will do it in the appropriate place/thread, as I know Eric has one open on the issue which I have a considerable amount of "stuff" to say...!) so and in response to your direct question, no I'm not a Certified Arborist, even tough I've been working with and for trees, for nearly 40 years...!

Now, that is a reason why I behaved that way with this young man, firstly he admitted to have done the damage in the branch when he moved in, and he done nothing to resolve the situation and to prevent himself, his kids (that I've seen playing under the tree, and the general public that uses that new walkway which I mention as having a lot of traffic, particularly school kids, motorized well-chair disable people and general public.

There was the fact that, this young man need to have some "maturity check" and some lesson for his childish behaviour and total disregard for other people. Regardless if you like/ accept it or not, he behaved like a child so I treat him like a child, and hope he learns his lesson...!

He could easily have removed/cut that damaged branch, immediately after that truck hit it, as he had a chainsaw. In fact, and after he realised that I didn't know who done the damage (even tough was obvious, was a truck entering or exiting his driveway...!) and he had just admitted that he done it, he said that he was going to get it (chainsaw) and cut it.

Obviously, he didn't wanted to have the council involved, as he was liable to pay for the limb removal and his excuse that he didn't wanted to have any problem with the council for cutting that branch, wasn't really the reason as he was ready to go get the saw and cut it himself, now that I brought the issue to his attention.

He actually went and got his chainsaw out of the shed and set in the back of is Ute so, why didn't I leave and let him take care of that branch...???
Well, this was Saturday early afternoon, and he has been drinking for some time and still holding one of his drinks while I was talking to him. When he comeback with the chainsaw, he come out also with another new drink and I knew that, the young fellow was not man enough to admit to himself that he was in no condition to handle a chainsaw.

This is the very reason why I got my saw (already with me) asked to stay put and let me cut it down. I asked him if he wanted the firewood, he said no, I have no use for it so I took the usable wood way and told him that, was is turn to clean up, there is take the small branches from the walkway an sweep the cement...!

In the end, was not a complicate problem to resolve and I just couldn't see the point in closing the area down with road pins and tape, on a weekend, with strong winds coming trough, for something that would take me 10 minutes to resolve. Closing that walkway in that spot would create a dangerous situation for those disable motorised well-chair users as they would have to leave the safety of the foot-pass/walkway, get into the road side and get in on the next driveway, some distance way when is no great visibility from drivers, coming from the North side of the road...!

Like anything in life, there are reasons why we do what we do, regardless if is all by the book, following the top of the wall's edge or falling face down.

I accept that, same may think that I should kept out of the situation, all together but the point I tried to make when I posted, was in reference to the ignorance some people have of trees, and what makes other make a big deal out of nothing, and I believe, my point was made and confirmed...!

Cheers
George

George Valentine

Yes KevinE, I'm well aware of that but I don't think that you can compare my case with that fellow that cut and removed the whole tree, all together...!

The tree is fine and that limb removal is not going to kill the tree or compromise the tree's balance/stability. In fact, that limb was never suppose to let grow the way it did, it has been knocked about more times than I can count, since I've been here, as it was hanging too far towards the driveway, and was only a matter of time before someone would knocked it good and proper, as this young man did...!

I still not know if the tree belongs to the Council or to the person that owns the house, in this case wouldn't make any difference to my actions, anyway...!

Cheers
George

George Valentine

I believe, you are referring to the opening post, right...???

I'm also curious about your comment about the way that cut was done in that young tree (if you referring to the Opening post), if you referring to my cut, I would be curious in knowing also...!

Cheers
George

George Valentine

Eric,

I'm glad that I have gave you something "missing" back...!

Public flogging...??? Doesn't really stick with me any more, I've grown a very thick layer of skin, from all the logs that I carried on my back, in the hot sun...!

Yes, you are correct, the tree is not the target, the tree is the source of the risk, through the damaged limb...!
The target to me, was the risk incurred to his own kids, himself/family and friends using the area and to all those using that cemented walkway, as I mention as a main concern in my original post. The branches being so heavy were already bellow eye level on a average person's hight.

You mention and define "target cuts", is mine within these specs in you view, considering that, I had shown a pic of the lower part of the branch, not far from the tree attachment point where it had damage caused by vehicles hitting it...???

In more situation than not, and as far as I've always been told, by law, you are liable from the moment you are aware of a dangerous situation and do nothing about it. This I believe, can be interpreted in various ways and if in my case, I could never by law, the accountable if someone would get their neck broke from that heavy branch falling on top of their head, I would have acted in the exact some way...!

In regards to that other gum with a bad lean, you know as well as I do that, I would be getting the "run around the block" by the council with a inquiry of such nature....!

I have a problem with this, "if is healthy, is no problem...!" type mentality, and again, anyone involved deeply with trees as I am, will know that, is not always the case, tough.

I'm yet to stop close to the tree's trunk and have a good look as I can't see much from the road as the butt is in a soft sand creek bed and the grass/shrubs are too overgrown to see the tree base but, and from what I see from its lean, I'm pretty sure it as more lean than what it had 6 years ago (I can't prove it as I never measured it) but, my visual perception when I saw it last was that, it was closer to the road than before...!

The question is, if the council have had the tree checked for any health issues, and the person in charge of the report as ticked all the boxes for the tree to stay, I wonder what this person is thinking as a qualified and certified arborist...??? Isn't it obvious that, the tree serves no purpose than, put life's in jeopardy...???

Doesn't it make sense to anyone with half brain and a little knowledge of trees stability that, being healthy is not going to make a damn difference, when the over balance is reached or the soft sand (creek bed) stops holding the enormous pressures exerted at the tree root system...? No, it will not, that tree will come down like a ton of bricks, only in this case will be a lot more than a tonne coming down...!

Again, what was the purpose of me posting the pics of this tree...??? simply to demonstrate that if there is people out there that do and say stupid things about trees, because they are totally ignorant of these issues, what excuse to those that work by or for council's have, to allow dangerous situations to kept and defended in the name of "tree health"...???

Has been my perception since the day I joined to this forum and group of people that, as a group was a great amount of work and effort been put into a "common sense" approach when it comes to tree issues. Has been also my perception from a lot of my readings that, there is a great number of qualified and certified tree people in here that would like to see some of these ridiculous council's actions, be exchanged by a more reasonable and sensible way, for all concern so based upon this perceptions, I felt appropriate to disclose the recent issues, however, I well aware of the sensitivity some of these issues are seen and felt by some people so, I apologise if my actions have upset some of you...!

Cheers
George

Eric Frei

Your cut looks near enough on target, maybe a little out at the top.

Regarding law and liability I assure you lawyers like to argue and in a court room there is two arguing.

We all have to some degree a duty to inform, whether or not you are liable depends on numerous factors. What if the hazard is not in your area of expertise and you are unable to act upon it? Then logically simply informing is sufficient.

Is a doctor liable for every sick person's undiagnosed deterioration he walks past? I doubt it.

Generally the owner of the issue is liable from the point of being informed, or as a reasonable person would see, onwards.

I drive past shit trees everyday, am I liable because I do not pull over and do something about it? I doubt it.

Also if I enter a persons yard for a free quote and do that, but there is a sick tree in their yard I failed to see or diagnose, am I liable? I doubt that especially as I was not engaged for that.

__________________

pukunui

I don't actually disagree with the branch being removed, just the way you went about it. Demanding something be done to a tree you don't own (or even know who owns it). The liability issue doesn't wash with me, you informed him therefore it's his problem (if he owns the tree) or councils if they do. You aren't a consulting Arborist contracted to inspect the trees, so how are you liable?

In terms of the consequences for the tree, there are some, That wound is quite large and will take a long time to occlude so will be a potential site for fungal attack for a long time. This could one day compromise the trees health and stability. However, there may not have been any alternative.

As for the leaning Euc, I don't get where the outrage against council is coming from. You said yourself you haven't had a look at the base of the tree. That's where all the action in this case is. Whats to say there isn't a huge tension root coming out from the tree making it solid ?
Making a judgement from afar about it's stability because of a lean is as silly as saying it's sweet because it's green and healthy looking (Tree health has little to do with stability and hazard).

Again, im not saying this tree isn't a hazard, just think you are jumping the gun a bit with the outrage. Maybe council has given it the ok, maybe they haven't even looked or maybe the tree is an RTA issue (or whatever the roads authority is down that way) I'd fire of some polite emails letting them know it's a concern to you, without any of your own judgements, and let them check it out themselves. Keep the emails too so if it does fail one day you can let the courts know that they knew.

By the way i don't work for a council but do know a few people who do and they're not all incompetent.

George Valentine

And thanks goodness for that but, one as to admit that, councils in general and for what they represent, one would expect many of their decisions tree related should follow the policy of common sense and each issue dealt for its merits and not the combinations of "agendas" created by those in power covering their own decisions with the positions they held, forgetting that behind that mask, they are no different than anyone else...!

Instead of arguing with me about my qualifications to make such judgment calls or even bring these subjects in the first place, I would feel that would be a lot more constructive to have views from you and others of the Council's necessity to maintain an identified risk source and potential targets, is that really worth it in this case...!

Again, this is only an example of things that make absolutely no sense to me nor I can see how that tree and many others over roads can be a benefit to the public, as I often see mentioned by Councils...!

And believe it or not and with all due respect, (this is not directed to you personally but, in general) one doesn't have to have certificates and diplomas to have a sound knowledge of an issue, regardless what that issue is, and the tree world, is no exception. Most of those older guys that are now certified in the industry, done so that they could proceed with their careers, not because they didn't already know about their work, many of those guys are now the instructors of the industry, how do you think they acquire the knowledge, experience and skills...??? there were no certifications and or all the modern requirements within the industry and believe me, many of these people, have more experience and skills that you and many other may never achieve...!

This issue has been discussed in one other thread started by Eric, and as much as I've tried to keep out of it, I'm starting to feel that some "things" (true facts) should be said to clarify some sticky and misleading concepts some people do have.

There will never a point where everyone agrees, as there will be always someone that needs to be different for no other reason than, being different. This makes life a colourful screen, and the world to go around...!

Cheers
George

pukunui

I raised the qualification issue because to me it was clear that you don't think like an Arborist, who to me will see an issue from a distance then go and investigate the issues to back up their claims with evidence, not just make conclusions based on some preconceived ideas.
Not saying qualifications are the be all and end all but you yourself have said you aren't an Arborist yet you are claiming to be able to do the job just as well.
In the same way experience isn't the be all and end all if it's isn't based around established knowledge and practices. Think of all those years that flush cutting was acceptable and common. Just because someone does it for 20+years doesn't make it right.

On a side note, yes trees planted near roads do provide a benefit.
- Aesthetics
- Habitat
- Heritage
- Shade extending the life of bitumen
- wind breaks
Just to name a few.

Of course these wouldn't be given precedence over safety if the tree was judged to be hazardous. But we are yet to see any evidence of that other than a lean.

George Valentine

There is obvious that you are using me to make your point across, that unless you are a certified Arborist by the Government and Regulating Authorities, you have no right of touching a chainsaw and or have a say or do anything tree related , right...???

Well, unless you are prepared to respect my opinions, I will not respect yours and while, I would hate to see us involved in a damn argument, and serve no ones purpose, either than get one, or both of us banned from this place (experience validate my claim, here...!), you're welcome to come and see me if you close by or PM me with your primordial issues you may have against me or the way I conduct myself.

Experience also tells me that, you may feel upset, that are people out there that are doing your job type (partially, as no "official" jobs/contracts a non-certified person will be accepted for certain areas of the tree work such as performing legal Arborist jobs), when you spend the time and money to acquire your certifications before you could have the job, and that my friend, I understand a lot more than you imagine as I was in the exact same situation, in a different line of work that I also dedicated a large portion of my life to.

Again, it all started with learning how to do the job and learn how to do it properly, by those around you with more experience. Your class room was the outside environment where the job requires to be done, no red-tape, no bureaucracy, no projectors, no air conditioning and certainly no bullshit...! how do I know...??? well, I THOUGH that being nearly 40 and never used a computer, not having all those certificates and diplomas, apart from those I got from 14 years at school as a young man, that I was being left behind is regards to the new requirements implemented for those that wanted to do what I was doing.

I've though that, my experience levels and skill would be increased by taking part and be part of the new implemented qualifications requirements for that job/career. I also though that, the way that, that career was envisage by the "general" public, would change and therefore improve but I was going for a nasty surprise, indeed...!

So, the "common name" for what I was doing, has changed to a more politically correct term, and therefore more in parallel to the new philosophy, implemented by the political governmental, "make look good" bulshit..!

I know what I felt when the new "chooks" come out of the roost with all these certifications, tags and noses up and looked down to those like me that had created the opportunity for them, not that they would give a damn, anyway so, and as I mention, I put myself not only trough the ring but I went a step further and became an "instructor" for the new recruits.

I filled the largest wall of my house with every certificate and diploma anyone could dream of, related with that industry and career. After I went through all that and years of sacrifice, I felt that I no longer wanted to do that job...! Was not the same job any more, I have not learn anything that would allow me to do what I knew how, any better or any easier, in fact the simple combination of the red-tape, terminology and ideology forced upon us as a "condition", was enough to hate what I was doing and move way all together.

I still have all those certificates and diplomas but now in a cardboard box and put away, they remind me of something that make me hate what I once loved, all in the name of "political correctness"...!

Making a mistake once, is acceptable and normal, making the same mistake twice is pure stupidity, in my books...!

I much more prefer of being accused to do what I do and like, and not being a "certified" person than I prefer to destroy one of the few things I've got left, and there is, my passion and dedication for tree work and anything related to it including wood work any any kind, shape and form, since a young kid...!

You and others may not like it, and I respect that and in fact I can understand why, nevertheless, allow me the right to voice my opinions based upon the knowledge and experience I acquire from many years of hard work and while I can...!

Cheers
George

Attached Thumbnails

 

Eric Frei

George,

I do not think he is doing that but often you will see me too approaching issues with caution. There is a difference between assessing trees and cutting trees, the leaning trees are a different kettle of fish to the tree where you removed the limb.

Also, Australian Tree Association Ltd also supports those who are not arborists. It states:-
So a person who has tree felling experience, may have a fell large trees certificate can certainly do a job felling trees without being an arborist. The Australian AQF system allows for people to get RPL for certain units to validate their experience. Not a bad system.

But I have seen dumb asses with a few tickets talking shit to customers so they get to cut more trees down, the customer sadly trusted a tree feller for arboricultural advice .... two very different things.

Also if you do not mind me asking what did you do before, I cannot make it out in all those certificates.

__________________

pukunui

Ok, I can see this conversation isn't going anywhere but down the drain.
My aim wasn't to antagonise you but it appears that has happened.

I was just trying to shed light on what i thought was a flawed thought process in making conclusions and handing out blame in two different situations.

As eric said being awesome with a saw doesn't necessarily mean you should be assessing hazards.

I won't enter the qualification system debate because that is a whole other topic which could go on and on.

Eric Frei

Please do, start a thread, I can go on and on as long as it takes.

__________________

George Valentine

Eric,

I acknowledge that, the 2 issues I brought here are totally of different nature, even tough they were brought in under the same principle and that is to validate the opening post, provided another 2 examples of the ignorance (in my view) and or lack of common sense from people in and out of the system of the tree world.

With the branch I cut, well that is all over and one with and it makes me feel better that I know the risk has been removed. That brought a whole new issue based on my comment about my liability and the law if something bad has happened. I don't dispute that the responsibility that I felt over my shoulders, had beyond any doubt validate my need to use my knowledge and skills to resolve it and as I said, it was a very minor job for someone like me...!

It is also possible that in a court of law, I would be told that I could not be liable for anything that could have happened but, when it comes to most of these laws, I experienced "variations" in the law that I didn't thing possible and part of any citizen's responsibility and duty, the best example I can give you of this is in regards to the "Citizens arrest", how many people know or are aware that by law, and in certain circumstances, anyone can perform a citizens arrest and the law protect your right to make that judgment.

I have 3 citizens arrests under my clean name/police records and I suffer no consequences of any kind shape and form, apart fro having to justify my actions to the chief of police...!
Now, what needs to be said also is that, even a citizens arrest have rules, you have to make in most times, a split moment judgment of your intentions, having exactly the same risks a Police Officer would have when making an arrest. No one as asked me to act in any of the 3 situations, as I could simply turn by back and move away but my nature and my training, tells me different so I act upon a combination of the risk Vs my abilities.

I'm glad that I haven't to resort of such actions for some years, nor I could trust that my body strength and agility wouldn't fail me badly so, I use other methods to get the bad boys handled by the Police...!

So, what I'm trying to say is, I'm not sure what each State in Australia says about the responsibly and duty of a member of the public, regardless of background, to act upon certain situations, and it is very possible that I have went well over my head with some of my reactions to some actions, I'm only human after all but, my actions are a direct result of my life experiences, that defines who I am, right or wrong, is irrelevant to me...! does this makes me selfish...??? maybe yes maybe no but who is perfect, anyway...!

You are so right about some unscrupulous "people" tricking home owners to get tree work done when is none needed or convinced them to cut more trees than what is required, overcharging for a shit job and then disappearing of the map...!

Really, educate the common person to some tree needs basics, and provide them with the best advice and support possible, so that when some work needs done, they don't let themselves being ripped-off by these "chainsaw heads"...!

There is a tremendous difference between urban and forest tree work, both have their own place and skills requirements no doubt. I've experienced both in both Countries (Portugal and Australia), and while the forest work is identical, particularly since machinery has been designed and introduced to the art of wood harvesting, on the other hand, urban tree work, as not had the major transformation the forestry had in recent years, as and apart from the more sophisticated components/accessories introduced to tree climbing and tree rigging world, the basic methods haven't changed that much.

Actually, there is one piece of equipment that has been introduce recently to urban work particularly that I see as the best thing since peanut butter was used to spread in bred...! and that is the motorized rope ascenders, that is evolution and good thinking...! I hope to be able to have the opportunity to use one, before all my wheels fell off...!

You requested me to reveal what that job, that I made reference to in my last post, I'm sorry Eric, and not prepared to provide that information in public, not yet anyway but, and to give you a little more to think about I may show some pics of some of the headings of those documents. I can guaranty that in Queensland and some other states, that job has been classified as one of the oldest jobs around in its original and pure form but since 1987 I worked to change a lot of what was happening (particularly the bad stuff) and took it into a totally different level, which is probably the reason why it still exists today with great chances to become even a bigger thing.

I remember that when I started to get involved, I was told that, "this is only a job for those that aren't good for anything else"...! like people were of second category to the rest and that did turn my gut inside out...!

I have reached the highest point of that leader and that career that I pursued since mu arrival in Australia as no other country in the world could have given me de best environment to succeed so, reaching the highest point that no one else have even contemplated, almost killed me but in the end the price I paid was certainly not what I had dreamed of and expected, living behind a life time of hard work and expense/investment of which I got no benefits from as I left when was time to collect the fruits (sort of speak), but I was no longer interested and disappointed...!

One day I will tell you...!

Attached are only a few of those documents that I have a print of, saved on the computer, names where removed for privacy reasons. All others (documents) would be to obvious and too divulging, as they have no real relevance for the issues discussed...! Sorry.

Cheers
George

Attached Thumbnails

       

George Valentine

I'm perfectly capable to maintain a civilized conversation with you or anyone, even if we have totally different view points...!

I obviously don't agree with your views in relation to my actions or "mentality" behind my actions, that's your right but it doesn't mean that you are automatically right, either...!

Experience is not always everything, and I'm well aware of that, I have been "trained" to recognise hazards in more ways than you would be able to comprehend, hazard recognition in the tree world, starts from the moment you step within strike distance of a tree or a group of trees such as a planted forest or a natural/native vegetation area.

You simply will not come out alive in these situations unless, you are able to recognise all the hazards surrounding you, already there waiting for you like a set trap and then recognize the added hazards you will create with you require actions. You learn things that no school or classroom will ever teach you, however, in hour days, those that are willing to enter the industry and the art, have great learning facilities that were non existent then, and that is a much safer approach no doubt, even tough, is only part of the "real" thing...!

With time you learn to "read" trees to a point, and you become aware of all the phenomenon's that a tree is submitted to, from seed. You learn to recognise symptoms, from the signs, you learn what will happen if nature is left in charge or man intervention is made. You certainly became familiar with most aspects of trees with the added bonus that I bring the wood home, sliced, dice it into all sorts of sizes and shapes, study carefully and try to identify it if I'm not familiar with it.

I stabilize some rotten timber to workable stages, I study and record the spaltings processes, I test MC% drying and performance between air drying and mechanical drying methods, I study the creatures that I found in the wood or bark, I study the evolution of most wood eating creatures, I study the wood general condition, density/hardness, flexibility, workability and many others.

I like also to study the various fungi found in trees, that are present while the tree is alive and those that affect the tree when dead (standing or on the ground), etc. I usually use the more solid and workable size fungi, such as the "Horse Shoe" which is great to turn into all sorts of things...!

I've learn how to successfully trim trees, graft and prune fruit trees, particularly the Olive tree which is one that requires most knowledge. In fact, and unless you have an Olive grove bigger than you can handle, no grove owner will allow anyone else than themselves to annually trim the olive trees and certainly never when the young trees reach the stage of formative pruning which is the most crucial point of the trees life, disease susceptibility and fruit yield, for the rest of the trees life.

Believe it or not, I've learn how to do all that, and have the trust of some of these people as I get called every year to format, trim and treat their precious Olive trees. I'm proud of that even tough I'm not always physically well to help them when they need, any more...! The most anoying issue I have is not knowing all the technical terminology used in our days and by certified arborists. It annoys me that my brain can't memorize all the terms and remember them when I need, at least in places like this forum. I only wish that today's mentality and qualifications criteria would be based like in the old days where the "show me how its done" was a lot more important that the today's " tell me how its done" type of thing...!

There is only one aspect of the whole tree world that I haven't saw it as a priority, when younger, and that is the "proper" tree climbing with "proper" and modern gear. That was the reason why I became a member of this forum as my introductory post will confirm. I climbed trees without any safety gear whatsoever, with wooden made ladders that most people wouldn't dream to touch, while I would use every single step and in many cases well short on a 30' wooden ladder.

I cut trees with an axe, saw and other manual gear, I got bruised many times from ropes tight around my waist, when I use a rope, I've made my own gaffs and pads and I used every trick under the sun to assist me with direction falling...! BUT, for whatever the reason I can't explain, I never saw rope tree climbing work as the art it really is, and I decided that before I lose the use of my legs (long story), I wanted to learn and do a couple of tree dismantling using all and every modern system available in our days.

I started reading/studying and seeing hundreds of videos with some excellent tree climbers at work and gathering all the information on necessary equipment, I started saving and buying piece buy piece as I could afford it. It has took me nearly 3 years now and only a few months ago I decided that I had the most critical gear for tree climbing and tree rigging so I started to experiment. I'm not yet confident and or able to get my body weigh up comfortably and safely, and I've request some assistance already in this forum but I have yet to find the technique and the right gear to make that system work, after I tried a few...! Some more practice may have to wait for a while as I'm having my both hands done for the Carpel tunnel, with my right hand surgery booked for the 13/12/11 and the left about a couple of months after that...!

My main problem is what I always knew would be a difficult step to get over, and that is my age, my health, my lack of arm strength but particularly my overweight body, at least for these sort of things. I'm well aware that, with my spine the way it is, a small mistake and I will be in the wheel-chair a lot before I should but, and with all these things into consideration, ain't a thing anyone can do to stop me...!

If I only was that young again...!

In relation to one of your replies, I'm really intrigued to what "thinking like an certified arborist", really means...??? as is obvious that if one is not certified, could never thing the same way so, I wonder why among thousands of certified arborists in Australia or elsewhere, for that matter, why they all have different opinions about the same thing. Look at the arborists that work for councils and those working privately, regardless of which side of the fence they are, we see everyday totally contradictory opinions and actions between them. They all went trough the same/identical training and studies (exceptions do apply, such as RPL and others...!) however, their reports and working techniques can be totally different, how's that...???

I also don't know where you wanted this conversation to go, after you pushed my buttons...?? Off course that, you have annoyed me with your conclusions, particularly when I can see that you haven't been unable the "grasp" the fundamentals of what I was trying to say! Miss communication or miss interpretation...??? quite possible and in my case, quite normal, however our opinions, I welcome you or anyone else that have a problem with what I say or do, to challenge me in an civilized manner, I will certainly reply, no problem.

Now, coming back to the reason all this started and there is the opening post issue, which I believe, we all agree that is totally nonsense, what I have tried to say with my 2 examples was that, nonsense opinions and actions in regards to these issues, come from all angles of life, there is, those ignorant to tree issues and those that were suppose to know better, as who ever is responsible for the leaned tree to still be there.

I have no doubt that, some certified arborists reading this, would agree that even if the tree is healthy the eminent risks it poses are not worth it. There are hundreds of identical situations where I see councils/government take the wait and see approach, when I believe that if this particular tree was privately owned, council would have the owner remove it...! Again, these are only examples...!

And finally, being a good chainsaw operator is only a piece of the puzzle, even tough we see often qualified arborists that are extremely efficient with chainsaws, being badly hurt or killed from its use...!

I'm certain also that, while some accuse me of writing too damn long posts, others claim that my posts are a good reading and very informative, one thing I know for sure, there are a "few" people out there, reading/following this thread, seeing us going head to head and have a good laugh out of it...!, they wouldn't get involved, no way but, they enjoy this, so lets not disappoint them, huh...???

Cheers
George

pukunui

Ok, now that you have given me your life story. i'll make a few points.

There were two issues you raised that i have commented on.

The cutting of the branch of the neighbour/councils tree.
I said i don't agree that you had a right to cut the branch when the home owner said he didn't want you too. You think you were liable so did it anyway.
Not much more to add to that discussion.

The second was the leaning tree that you assessed as a hazard as you drove past.
My point was that you can't PROVE it's a hazard unless you go and inspect the base of it for evidence. You said yourself you hadn't done that.
Again im not saying it's not a hazard just that you can't make that call without actually investigating it further.

As for the "thinking like an arborist". To me an Arborist would spot the tree and go and investigate further BEFORE making conclusions about the risk a tree poses. Otherwise it's just a guess.
If they didn't use evidence to back their claims then in my opinion they aren't very good at what they do no matter how long they've been doing it for.
Just look at the laman st mess where the SOF idiots are using such an arborist who doesn't deal in demonstrable facts.

Again, im not saying it's not a hazard, just that you haven't actually proved it yet.

Garry Brockley

you have summed up the whole thing with your last line
"Again, im not saying it's not a hazard, just that you haven't actually proved it yet. "

__________________

George Valentine

Ok mate, I hear you, loud and clear and if "my life story" well...! (a very small portion of it, indeed...!) have some how made you have a better understand of my actions, than my time sharing it has been worth it.

See, you haven't still grasped what I am trying to say about that lean tree, do you...???
Lets see if I can summarise it in a different way...! One doesn't have to have knowledge about trees to raise their eyebrows, having to drive under such tree. It becomes a little more of a concern if you have to drive under it a few times daily and in all sorts of weather conditions, as I did for the short time that I lived that way.

At the time, and simply thinking as a "normal" person, I felt insecure and concern, driving constantly under it and, according to many of the people I've spoke to, that used that road as often as I did, they all showed the same concern I had. However, when I asked if anyone had tried to do something about it, I was told that the council doesn't recognise it as a risk.

I didn't wanted to put my "tree person, hat" as at the time as quite unwell and not interested in question the council's decision. Moved away from the area and, nearly 6 years later I return to that road, only to find that the tree still there and "seemed" a little closer to the road than before.

Now, apart from my surprise/shock I felt as uncomfortable if not more to drive under it, as before. I have no spoke to anyone in the area about it, and I don't need to, I had the answer in front of my eyes and the camera. Being too familiar with these type of removal requests, I know well that when the person in charge decides to ignore common sense and stick to the books or to his (in most cases) or hers (very rarely) need to not allow residents to make a point and have their way (that would be undermining their authority, in their view...!) so, the answer will be NO, regardless.

See, this person knows that, unless someone can prove that the tree isn't healthy, he will get his way...! I say he, because I recently rang that council and asked if the person in charge of these issues in that area was the same as from at least 6 years ago, and surprise, surprise, the answer was yes it has been there for a lot longer than that and, was told the name, which I don't know from a bar of soap and I'm not that interested in meeting.

So, I'm aware that this tree has been a constant complain by a lot of people that uses that road and I also do know that, has been numerous arguments between this person and some of the older residents from that area, even before my time living in that area. There is no doubt in my mind that, no one else apart from himself, have made a "legal" assessment of this tree and one of the reasons why I have done done my own assessment is due to the very reason that my findings are not acceptable/recognised, in the legal terms, one of the most stressful things a person in my position can experience.

Sure, I can go and assess that tree and try to find a certified arborist that would be prepared to take the bullet with this guy, which I assume is also a certified arborist...! See, is not the first time that I "alert" the authorities about hazard trees, and every time, action was taken and many of the times the tree removed. This was exactly what happened a few months ago with one of the most protected trees in this town, one of a line of old Pine trees planted 100 years ago and I spotted (became second nature to me...!) one of them that had a very active bees next that worked out to have been built on termites hollowing damage, at the base of the 3' across pine tree.

I have "assessed" the tree, I used my tools to see what was inside and immediately contact this council's arborist, which is certainly the same person as on the other council. We met at the tree, I show him my findings and told him who I was and why I did it. He thanked me and within 4 days the bees have been poisoned, the road closed and the tree was cut down, which I had organised the local timber mill to utilize the trunk sections that were cut according to the mill specifications instead of being dumped to burn later on.
I offer to remove the small timber as firewood and take care of the large area of the tree that was full of honey and with thousands of poisoned bees that let unattended would kill any wildlife that would eat them (birds) and the poisoned honey, that would destroy any bee hives in the area as other bees would find that deadly honey within hours, something that the arborist team that dome the tree removal, knew nothing about it. Pics are available if necessary...!

So, what am I trying to say here, well a few things in fact but, the one that I have been trying to put across to you is that, even certified arborists make wrong decisions, and in my view, the true motive behind the reasons why the leaning tree example I gave is still there, is all personal and political, the very same reason so many other public complains of "problem" trees all over Australia, have been ignore or simply "bogged" in read-tape...!

I don't recall to have read, what your qualifications are and how long you have been doing this sort of work for so, after all this I believe, is within acceptable limits, to ask...!

Cheers
George

George Valentine

Sorry Garry, I wasn't aware that you have posted while I was typing my reply so, I hope that, some of information on the above post, explains why I have not went any further in inspecting this tree.

Is my believe that, before a tree, any tree is considered for removal, ALL considerations should be taken into account, not always only, what the "book" says...!

Cheers
George

pukunui

My qualifications and experience are irrelevant in this case because im not the one making claims about trees being hazardous.

You still haven't proven anything about the risk this tree poses.
You've just gone off on another irrelevant tangent about how many other calls you got right in the past.

Show me photos of the root plate lifting/subsiding and i will agree with you that it should go and the council is dodgy.

What do you think the land and environment court would say if you made a submission to them regarding this tree but when asked what your evidence is and what observations you made around the root plate/tree base you say "Don't know, i haven't actually looked" ? It's wouldn't take them long to toss it out like they have with other "reports"

George Valentine

Oh, you do disappoint me, while you thing that you have the right to question my qualifications based upon my actions, you didn't hesitate in throwing the rules book at me and criticising my actions, based on the fact that you believe to you have the authority to do so, when I ask you to identify yourself within that authority that you are trying to impose on me, you now telling that is irrelevant...??? what a sort of an idiot you think I am...???

With all due respect, what prove do I have that you have any or no authority at all in these matters, and you are just a moron with a very boring life having a go at me, just to make you feel and look good...???

Until now, and believing that you had the certified qualifications and experience to question me the way you did, when I never asked anyone for any validation or condemnation of the EXAMPLES I provided based upon my views and opinions on the opening post issue raised. You don't seem to accept that those where my views, based on my philosophy of these issues. Instead you keep saying that I have no right to consider/believe that this damn tree is hazardous, unless I show you something that will satisfy our own criteria of hazards...? who in a hell you think you are, mate...??? since do I have to answer to you...???

So, and until you are prepared to answer my questions, this conversation stops here...!

This is one more example of the unfortunate mentality of "some" tree people (arborists) particular the young generation, that got themselves a piece of paper that in their view, gives them the authority to treat and undermine anyone that hasn't got it (piece of paper). Of course there are exceptions and self education is a great thing, a route that the older generation find extremely difficult to be part of, for many obvious reasons, one of them is dealing with some of these young chooks that are quick in climb to the roost to get their authority shown but, instead of singing, the only think they can do is make noises...!

Now for all of you out there, I know that are a lot of guys out there that have been following this thread, hoping to learn something, I certainly did...! The very first thing I should have requested was, this person's qualifications and experience in these matters, something that I wouldn't be interested in if I wasn't to be questioned and requested to explain my actions by this person. However, and while I went to great extends to provided as much information I could, I was told "irrelevant", my request for evidence of his authority.

I apologise if someone feel affected in a negative way by my words, I know that are lot of guys in this industry, in identical situation as mine and I feel deeply for the treatment some of us get from a great part of the certified individuals in the industry, particularly the relatively new generation. I also know that are a few of us that were in a better situation, age and career determination to get trough the ring and if they were lucky, have a lot of the qualifications recognised as per the "Recognition of Prior Learning" policies...! I know that it couldn't have been easy, particularly with the change of work practices, models and new regulatory requirements so, goodonya old soldiers...!

The young generations that come out of the present certifications, would probably never know any more than what they were told at school, and while some will advance greatly in knowledge and skill, others will simply hide behind they paper qualifications and apply form the easy desk jobs as many of those working for government departments and councils, such life...!

I came to this place, where it feels like a second home to me as all subjects discussed here have been part of my life for so long and I see a large group of people working and learning new things every day. There is a strong bond among tree people from all areas, as old as time. We can never agree with each other all the time, but there are common links that we all consider very dear to us.

I'm not the enemy, nor I am any sort of competition of any kind for anyone making a living out of tree work. I would probably consider to get my qualifications recognised in this area and put myself trough school targeting the highest level of qualifications as a certified Arborist and probably more but, is just too damn late for me, and I know that but I was hopping that I could be is this forum and be able to learn new things and exchange experiences without being antagonise or have to justify every one of my actions.

Really, the more I thing about this recent issue here, I wonder how many of you have though, why in hell, did I bother to entertain this person for as long as I did, others may probably think that I deserved what I got and my honest answer is, I probably did, to allow myself to be questioned in the first place...!

One more page turned on my book so, life goes on...!

Cheers
George