Felling technique

Pigdog · 2nd January 2008, 08:26 AM

A couple of years back, a 2 or so acre lot next to my property was clear cut logged. They had one fellow who cut all the trees down with a chainsaw rather than a skidder mounted saw.
I've always found that kind of work to be interesting so I watched that fellow cutting down those trees. The lot had quite a few large yellow pines as well as medium size oak and sweetgum trees.
I was amazed at how fast that sawyer was taking down those trees! I never bothered or talked to that guy, just watched. When he first started cutting, I saw him stick a couple of trees into other trees (the woods was pretty thick) and watched how he solved his situation by cutting other trees into those hung trees, causing them all to come crashing down. That guy never missed a beat! When he came up by my property, I noticed he never cut notches or wedges but was making 3 cuts and those trees were falling just where he wanted them to fall. It looked like he was cutting a triangle around the base of the tree (3 cuts). When came up to my property line, he acknowledged me by a friendly nod but never asked me to move. None of the trees barber poled! None of the trees fell across my property line!
Now he did do plunge cutting on the larger pines and possibly wedges but they were at the other end of the lot so I couldn't see exactly what he was doing but those near my property were not cut with a traditional hinge.
Anyone here ever use a technique like that or could explain what technique he may have been using?
I'm still scratching my head!

newguy18 · 2nd January 2008, 09:46 AM

Did he use a humboldt notch?if so it is basically just making the diaganol from the bottom instead of the conventional and making the back cut level with the undercut.I use it often and it works pretty good for me.
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepub...es/2353.h2.gif
I nkow in that picture the back cut is slightly above the undercut but I don't do it that way and it works very well.Heres a picture of the conventional notch that most people use.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000901...26/2353.h1.gif

Pigdog · 2nd January 2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

Did he use a humboldt notch?if so it is basically just making the diaganol from the bottom instead of the conventional and making the back cut level with the undercut.I use it often and it works pretty good for me.
http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepub...es/2353.h2.gif
I nkow in that picture the back cut is slightly above the undercut but I don't do it that way and it works very well.Heres a picture of the conventional notch that most people use.
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000901...26/2353.h1.gif

No, he didn't cut any wedge out for hinge control!
It looked like he was making three cuts that were angled downward slightly to the center of the stump.
He never made any two cuts on the same side of the tree. It looked like he cut on three different sides of the tree. The cut pattern on the bare stump looked like a triangle pattern! No straight hinge. What little hinge visible looked sort of triangle. It also seemed like the trees fell 90? to what they should have fallen when looking at that wedge of a hinge. I'd never seen nor heard of anyone doing it that way. He was laying those trees out side by side too!
That logging team made it look like they had it going on too, by watching the skidder and log loader working without much more than communicating by hand signals. There were only 3 people working, not counting the truck drivers hauling off the logs.
The sawyer would cut the tree then walk down limbing it, then hook a tape he had on his belt and walk down the log then cut the length.
I never saw that fellow pinch his saw either!
You could tell he'd been doing that work for a long time by just watching him work! He'd get a few trees ahead of the skidder and then the skid driver would be doing his thing gathering the logs while the sawyer was staying ahead, dropping trees.
After the skidder had a pile of logs back by the loading crane, he'd work those logs into position for the loading crane. It didn't take them long to clear cut that lot!

newguy18 · 2nd January 2008, 10:55 AM

maybe he did what is known as crippling.Its used mainly for rotten or goosed out trees and you basically make major and minor crooscuts to weaken the stump and the tree goes whereever it wants.It isn used on trees that a regular notch and hinge cut would be useless.If not then the only thing I can think of is when doing back leaning pull trees you make a notch on both sides of the trunk and where the notches meet it forms a triangle and you make the back cut level with the under cuts.That would do it.

Ekka · 2nd January 2008, 10:53 PM

I'm sure the Husky owners manual show that cut for leaners, dang I had it somewhere and even posted about it ages ago somewhere with pics.

There was even video, it's around the Husky camps and Swedish logging camps.

The cut was used primarily for forward leaners. Two side cuts were made to provide a point like a triangle, then the back cut. Idea being the point was in line with where the tree would fall and the back cut was a slow release. Not used on big trees.

Trees do tend to naturally weight a side or sunny side, if felling volumes in order it can be like dominos, same if felling with say a tail wind.

I'd say the fella was doing that, 2 side cuts to point where to go and then a back cut, no real hinge just some torn timber toward the front of the triangle and if he hung around the cut may have cut it off for a flush stump/butt.

bigshea13 · 3rd January 2008, 06:32 AM

its called side cutting. it involves four cuts. one in the front. one on each side of the first cut forming a triangle. the last cut starts at the tip of the triangle{back of tree} and progresses forward toward the hing wood

Pigdog · 3rd January 2008, 08:32 AM

I believe Eric described best what I saw as it seemed like he only was making 3 cuts! The direction of fall was towards the thick end of the wedge shaped hinge. I was more impressed at the time with how quickly he was moving from tree to tree! I should have paid more attention to how he was cutting.
I also read and article about what is called a kerf dutchman that sounds close if I'm understanding it correctly.
The trees I saw him cutting like that were pulp wood size trees. The larger timber wood trees he cut were across the lot and I couldn't see that much of what he was doing. He did spend more time on them as I recall.
The large trees close to the other fenceline were leaning towards the fence and they used the skidder and a cable on those.

bigshea13 · 3rd January 2008, 08:36 AM

if i remember right i think that the osha logging page gives description of dutchman and swinging dutchman. i dont think its what you think but then again maybe what your describing isnt what i think

Pigdog · 3rd January 2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshea13

if i remember right i think that the osha logging page gives description of dutchman and swinging dutchman. i dont think its what you think but then again maybe what your describing isnt what i think

Maybe what I saw wouldn't be a dutchman but it looked like he was using the thick end of the hinge to control the direction of the fall. Like the tree was falling to the side.
I've alway used a traditional notch and hinge to control a tree. That fellow's technique didn't look like anything traditional I ever saw!
He was doing something right because every tree he cut fell into the lot he was cutting in and I never noticed him cutting any V notches, at least on those trees along my property line. Even the skid driver never crossed any property lines which was impressive to watch as well!

bigshea13 · 3rd January 2008, 10:48 AM

pigdog. where in US do ya reside?

Ekka · 3rd January 2008, 12:11 PM

Here's a thought, ask around who the company was and give them a call, go out to their next jobsite with PPE and a video and get some footage.

Pigdog · 3rd January 2008, 12:51 PM

It's been a couple of years ago. I live in Northwest louisiana in the USA and there are a lot of loggers around here. Those folks could have been part of a larger company that just sent a crew out to do small jobs. I wouldn't have any Idea where to start looking for them. The lot had just sold and am not sure which, the seller or the buyer had it logged. They both are investors so I've never met the owners. It sure ruined the looks of that lot though. It's all growed up in brush and briars now.
Up the road someone logged a 50 acre tract and they cut trees with a saw mounted on a skidder. That machine would drive up and grab around the tree and a sawblade would cut it. They had a big piece of equipment that would strip the limbs off the logs.
A good bit of Louisana is timberland.
I own a 20 acre tract myself that I use for hunting. It's in the middle of several thousand acres of forest so there's plenty of deer that cross through my place.
I have a wisteria problem on one end of it though by an old house site.

Sean Freeman · 3rd January 2008, 01:17 PM

Pigdog its funny you should be talking about this type of cutting since a month back I was looking at criminal damage in Narang state forest with stumps very much as you describe, I'm only helping collect data not the expert witness, an Arborist with strong forestry background is playing that role....we've described the style of cutting as Swedish, but I will chase up the Husky manual and see if it has any references in it....shame you didn't get the company name I would very much like to track down the origins of this type of cutting simply for my own satisfaction.

Ekka · 3rd January 2008, 01:19 PM

Sean, did people fell trees in the State Forest? Why?

Sean Freeman · 3rd January 2008, 01:27 PM

Owner of a private house (numerous houses there back right into the forest) evidence suggests this is not the first time he's done it felled a selection of trees to give views from the veranda of Surfers up the coast...the stumps suggest the same technique (or lack thereof) as described by Pigdog, triangle of wood left on stump (most)
Hopefully the bloke will go big time $$'s even jail time (ok thats a distant hope!) His actions have prevent State Forestry from being able to burn through there 2yrs now the fuel loads are pretty damn high....if I were one of is neoghbours I'd be getting a legal letter drawn up referring to the increased risk to all persons and property as a result of the legal process his criminal action has started and therefore held up forest managment....if they get a fire (ok not likely right now!!! Mega rain!) those other houses will burn to the ground.

Ekka · 3rd January 2008, 01:40 PM

Be interesting to see if they get enough to pin the guy.

Evidence is tough, witnesses are req'd and neighbours usually shut up coz they have to live there. You'd think some-one heard a chainsaw running and looked.

What an azz the bloke is!

Pigdog · 3rd January 2008, 02:04 PM

Ok, this is getting to me so I went out and examined those stumps. From the marks It looks like the first cut was a plunge cut about 2/3's or so the way through then two side cuts. I do recall which way the trees fell which would be away from the side he made the plunge cut. Also the side cuts point to the direction the tree fell. Weird!
I'll try to get a picture.

2nd January 2008, 08:26 AM	#1 (permalink)
Pigdog Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 65	Felling technique A couple of years back, a 2 or so acre lot next to my property was clear cut logged. They had one fellow who cut all the trees down with a chainsaw rather than a skidder mounted saw. I've always found that kind of work to be interesting so I watched that fellow cutting down those trees. The lot had quite a few large yellow pines as well as medium size oak and sweetgum trees. I was amazed at how fast that sawyer was taking down those trees! I never bothered or talked to that guy, just watched. When he first started cutting, I saw him stick a couple of trees into other trees (the woods was pretty thick) and watched how he solved his situation by cutting other trees into those hung trees, causing them all to come crashing down. That guy never missed a beat! When he came up by my property, I noticed he never cut notches or wedges but was making 3 cuts and those trees were falling just where he wanted them to fall. It looked like he was cutting a triangle around the base of the tree (3 cuts). When came up to my property line, he acknowledged me by a friendly nod but never asked me to move. None of the trees barber poled! None of the trees fell across my property line! Now he did do plunge cutting on the larger pines and possibly wedges but they were at the other end of the lot so I couldn't see exactly what he was doing but those near my property were not cut with a traditional hinge. Anyone here ever use a technique like that or could explain what technique he may have been using? I'm still scratching my head!

2nd January 2008, 09:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,682	Re: Felling technique Did he use a humboldt notch?if so it is basically just making the diaganol from the bottom instead of the conventional and making the back cut level with the undercut.I use it often and it works pretty good for me. http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepub...es/2353.h2.gif I nkow in that picture the back cut is slightly above the undercut but I don't do it that way and it works very well.Heres a picture of the conventional notch that most people use. http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000901...26/2353.h1.gif __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

2nd January 2008, 10:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,682	Re: Felling technique maybe he did what is known as crippling.Its used mainly for rotten or goosed out trees and you basically make major and minor crooscuts to weaken the stump and the tree goes whereever it wants.It isn used on trees that a regular notch and hinge cut would be useless.If not then the only thing I can think of is when doing back leaning pull trees you make a notch on both sides of the trunk and where the notches meet it forms a triangle and you make the back cut level with the under cuts.That would do it. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

2nd January 2008, 10:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Felling technique I'm sure the Husky owners manual show that cut for leaners, dang I had it somewhere and even posted about it ages ago somewhere with pics. There was even video, it's around the Husky camps and Swedish logging camps. The cut was used primarily for forward leaners. Two side cuts were made to provide a point like a triangle, then the back cut. Idea being the point was in line with where the tree would fall and the back cut was a slow release. Not used on big trees. Trees do tend to naturally weight a side or sunny side, if felling volumes in order it can be like dominos, same if felling with say a tail wind. I'd say the fella was doing that, 2 side cuts to point where to go and then a back cut, no real hinge just some torn timber toward the front of the triangle and if he hung around the cut may have cut it off for a flush stump/butt. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd January 2008, 06:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: Felling technique its called side cutting. it involves four cuts. one in the front. one on each side of the first cut forming a triangle. the last cut starts at the tip of the triangle{back of tree} and progresses forward toward the hing wood

3rd January 2008, 08:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
Pigdog Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 65	Re: Felling technique I believe Eric described best what I saw as it seemed like he only was making 3 cuts! The direction of fall was towards the thick end of the wedge shaped hinge. I was more impressed at the time with how quickly he was moving from tree to tree! I should have paid more attention to how he was cutting. I also read and article about what is called a kerf dutchman that sounds close if I'm understanding it correctly. The trees I saw him cutting like that were pulp wood size trees. The larger timber wood trees he cut were across the lot and I couldn't see that much of what he was doing. He did spend more time on them as I recall. The large trees close to the other fenceline were leaning towards the fence and they used the skidder and a cable on those.

3rd January 2008, 08:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: Felling technique if i remember right i think that the osha logging page gives description of dutchman and swinging dutchman. i dont think its what you think but then again maybe what your describing isnt what i think

3rd January 2008, 10:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: Felling technique pigdog. where in US do ya reside?

3rd January 2008, 12:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Felling technique Here's a thought, ask around who the company was and give them a call, go out to their next jobsite with PPE and a video and get some footage. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd January 2008, 12:51 PM	#12 (permalink)
Pigdog Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 65	Re: Felling technique It's been a couple of years ago. I live in Northwest louisiana in the USA and there are a lot of loggers around here. Those folks could have been part of a larger company that just sent a crew out to do small jobs. I wouldn't have any Idea where to start looking for them. The lot had just sold and am not sure which, the seller or the buyer had it logged. They both are investors so I've never met the owners. It sure ruined the looks of that lot though. It's all growed up in brush and briars now. Up the road someone logged a 50 acre tract and they cut trees with a saw mounted on a skidder. That machine would drive up and grab around the tree and a sawblade would cut it. They had a big piece of equipment that would strip the limbs off the logs. A good bit of Louisana is timberland. I own a 20 acre tract myself that I use for hunting. It's in the middle of several thousand acres of forest so there's plenty of deer that cross through my place. I have a wisteria problem on one end of it though by an old house site.

3rd January 2008, 01:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Felling technique Pigdog its funny you should be talking about this type of cutting since a month back I was looking at criminal damage in Narang state forest with stumps very much as you describe, I'm only helping collect data not the expert witness, an Arborist with strong forestry background is playing that role....we've described the style of cutting as Swedish, but I will chase up the Husky manual and see if it has any references in it....shame you didn't get the company name I would very much like to track down the origins of this type of cutting simply for my own satisfaction. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd January 2008, 01:19 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Felling technique Sean, did people fell trees in the State Forest? Why? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd January 2008, 01:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Felling technique Owner of a private house (numerous houses there back right into the forest) evidence suggests this is not the first time he's done it felled a selection of trees to give views from the veranda of Surfers up the coast...the stumps suggest the same technique (or lack thereof) as described by Pigdog, triangle of wood left on stump (most) Hopefully the bloke will go big time $$'s even jail time (ok thats a distant hope!) His actions have prevent State Forestry from being able to burn through there 2yrs now the fuel loads are pretty damn high....if I were one of is neoghbours I'd be getting a legal letter drawn up referring to the increased risk to all persons and property as a result of the legal process his criminal action has started and therefore held up forest managment....if they get a fire (ok not likely right now!!! Mega rain!) those other houses will burn to the ground. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd January 2008, 01:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Felling technique Be interesting to see if they get enough to pin the guy. Evidence is tough, witnesses are req'd and neighbours usually shut up coz they have to live there. You'd think some-one heard a chainsaw running and looked. What an azz the bloke is! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd January 2008, 02:04 PM	#17 (permalink)
Pigdog Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 65	Re: Felling technique Ok, this is getting to me so I went out and examined those stumps. From the marks It looks like the first cut was a plunge cut about 2/3's or so the way through then two side cuts. I do recall which way the trees fell which would be away from the side he made the plunge cut. Also the side cuts point to the direction the tree fell. Weird! I'll try to get a picture.