Dangerous Profession? Need to take them all?

mdvaden

I realize that many arborist / tree accidents are not due to hazardous trees. In fact, the two I'm aware of very closely, was one guy melting the line tying himself in with the rope lowering wood laying over it, and, a tree service owner under a tree and the other guy dropping a big chunk on his head or back.

Maybe the profession is less dangerous than people expect. Maybe it's the people who rush and take shorcuts that make it seem worse than it is.

But what came to mind today, were the trees that are definitely dangerous. Around power lines, maybe on live wires. Huge trees loaded with weakness and decay, etc..

Does the wise arborist figure out a way to take-on all the projects, or does he (she) say "no thank you" this time, and let the job fall to someone else?

Do you consider your job dangerous? Or do you think its just dangerous for people who put danger into their work?

TrevMcRev

Md, the way i approach it is to weigh up the risks involved and determine a safe method to achieve completing the task. Then price accordingly. We have a good steady workload for what i call A & B grade clients.

There will always be a bozo tree guy who either doesnt understand the defects and hazards or doesnt care about them, and will put the safety of themselves and their team on the line, along with the public and their property all for the sake of having a job to do tommorrow.

There will also always be customers (C & D grade) who dont care about any of this either.

Both will get what they deserve sooner or later.

With enough work up your sleeve doing quality work for quality clients you dont get sucked in to doing the gnarly stuff cheap just because you have to.

Sean Freeman

Mario, for me its simply a question of assessing the risk within each task together with Stephen and Tim and coming to an agreement on the safest and most efficient way of completing the job. Risk assessment and management becomes second nature (or should!) for all of us, is my work more inherently dangerous than say any construction or mining job outdoors...essentially I don't think so, accepting that there are real problems making any such comparison.

A silly example is a tip prune to remove building-branch conflict a week or more ago, no high point out on previously lopped limb Eucalyptus platyphylla with pronounced hazard beam structure to it. We looked at our options..no EWP, no crane access either leave or climb, decided I would vertically climb primary tip around 70mm dia part of limb, with a secondary tip in the center of the tree, same height some 4/5m away horizontally, so in this way managed the perceived risk...no nasty outcomes, in fact the primary tip held perfectly well...could have climbed on that alone, but the potential risk was managed simply and quickly.

So thats a very long winded way of saying I agree with your last comment....

I think sometimes some of us rush or have our male bravardo take over where intuition and intrenched risk assessment and management procedures should direct what we do and how we do our work.

Eric Frei

Couple of great answers so far.

No thank you is also a good option.... also a good option for D grade customers, feuding neighbours, poor access etc.

Some people think we have magic carpets and log floaters. Others think we can levitate. Some aren't interested in the practicalities of what is possible and how you'll do it ... as long as you are CHEAP!

At the end of the day we run a business which has to make profits not insurance claims.

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Jeff Darby

I think our profession is potentially dangerous at all time. made more dangerous by people aproaching with , A She'll be alright attitude, We take educated risks proven over time,When aproached in a happhazzard way it's only a matter of time before something goes wrong.

This is why your hazzard/risk assessment starts as you walk down the drive noting all potenial hazzards as you go,until you arrive at the"victim" Then access the tree to see any obvious defects,targets,access,are the neigbs good or so an so's while you are doing this you should be acessing whether or not you can successfully remove this tree, or limb without damage to person and property, if you can't walk!

Male bravado should not come into the picture, definately stay with entrenched risk/ hazzard assessement.(BoaO7)

Definately price accordingly if you need a crane/ewp,etc factor it in,if you need it you need it,yes, some bozo mite get it down THIS TIME but it's only a matter of time for him!

At the end of the day we have to feed our families and pay our bills,so cheaps out, and small profit in.Otherwise as Ekka has said in previous posts it a race to the bottom.

It's better to walk than to have to pay your excess,because you bit of more than you can chew.

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mdvaden

There's an arborist whom I enjoy working with in Oregon quite a bit. This morning, I just remembered one of our conversations.

We were removing trees. I did small ones myself, and hired him and his worker for the big ones.

There was a big willow in the back corner that was "rotten to the core" - dead - sat decaying for years - bunch of "sawdust" near the base from insects - just nasty. It wasn't included on that project yet, due to funds (future thing).

So I asked the other arborist "what do you do with a tree that's been dead and neglected that long?" He said "can't climb it" - crane can't get to it - a lift can't get to it - can't use a ladder.

He tells me that he asks the homeowner what is the least important thing in their backyard. "Can I drop it on your greenhouse?" Toolshed? Fence? Shrubs?

Basically, if no method allows it go be taken down, and its going to come down anyway after it rots-loose, he would rather just drop the tree on something than risk injury.

This kind of tree looked like one of those "you see one every ten years or so" type things.

Jeff Darby

Mario, I have heard of this done aswell but so far have not opted for this course of action,most customers do not understand,exceptable collateral damage,be it a shed,fence or carport....you know it has to come down or it could kill some one, worse case senario,most just see that option as a sign of incompetance, but if they are understanding just don't miss your target, property's nothing compared to human life, just get them to sign off on the expected damage or the relationship could change real fast.
All The Best
JayD

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Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

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Houthakker

Hi, here in Sweden it has happend to me several times that customers thought we were too expensive, especially with trees that had a health that was less than bad. OK, we leave our price customer can agree or not. Trees came down anyway, one destroying three dogpounds, owner is a breeder. Stopped and asked him how and when etc, in short .... we did it ourselves together with a neighbour, a borrowed chainsaw from the local salesman that was big enough and the damage. Aaaah well, we fix that together too. So I said to the man, say that next time to me, I could have taken it down destroying only one dogpound. I had to leave fast, guy got angry for some reason. Have gotten into this several times now.

JohN Dee

Myself and my father are capable of dismantling any tree in any situation. BUT having said that, we stick to what we can get through with ease.

Our setup isn't a monstruous' setup (yet) so we tend not to take on the monstrous' kind of tree's. We pass these one's onto a bigger company in our area.

Is our job(s) dangerous, my answer: yes.

Speaking in more of a climber's perspective here. I believe that once a climber no longer fears falling, it is time for the climber to stop climbing.

Fear - Is it not what lingers in your mind whilst' working? To be afraid to cut off your hand while running the chainsaw, to be scared of your hand getting caught in the infeed roller of a chipper, to be worried about accidently cutting your life line whilst climbing? If you arn't thinking about any of these things while performing the action what stops you from making the mistake?

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Bruce Hopf

I'm not a Climber. I just work in my Own Bush, but I used to do Custom Fire Wood Cutting, and I could not agree with you any more, than what you said. Getting Relaxed in a Job, it is time to move on to something else.
I was taught to have the Up Most Respect for a Chain Saw, and a Tree. I learned that to Expect the Unexpected, and I have the Front Teeth to prove it, from a tree Limb, that was Sprung Back by another Tree, that fell on top of of it.
I cut through a Tree Limb, and the other one came up over the top of the Guide Bar, and Chain, and right up into the Mouth, snapping 4 of my Top Front Teeth.
The Only time I Do Not have any Respect for a Tree, is after I throw the Limbs into a Pile, and when I throw a Block of it into the Furnace that I use to heat my House with. Then, and only then, that Tree can't do me any more Harm. Bruce.

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1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Q.Q.

Love your response John Dee, I thought I was the only one who thought like that here.
I am the same as you on all that you said, but I will give the big job's a go as well and quote accordinly to what ever I need to get the job done right and safe.
The problem is you don't here enought of those other guy's getting what they deserve,althought I know it catches them eventually.
There is only one job I walked from so far, I drive past it every day and it's still there. Risk way too high, and looks like everybody elese thinks so too.

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Eric Frei

Can we get a pic of the ugly job no-one wants?

In my experience what I see happen often is the places that are big enough to have an owner, then a bloke running around quoting (not always theowner) tend to get the ugly jobs and just expect the crew to deal with it.

I know they do their ass on it, and I know their crew dislikes the quoter/boss for it.

Funny how you can expect others to do uglier jobs than you'd do yourself.

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Q.Q.

Ekka I would love to post hundreds of pics on this thing but I carn't even figure out how to get a picture of me on here yet. Just spent 4 hours trying with Cindy and still no go.
God dam computor's and the idiot's behind them God dam FT.
Just carn't get it.

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Q,Q's Tree & Garden Maintenance

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Done it

Look at this, How to post| add a picture or file| embed picture

You may have to resize you're pics as well.

Q.Q.

Done all that just told me that Upload flie has failed an that's it?

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Done it

Picture is to big.

Q.Q.

It uploaded to the signiture but won't upload to profile picture, I have reduced it already

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Bruce Hopf

What you need to do is go into your Pictures, or what ever Program you have where your Pictures are in. Click on the Right Side of your Mouse, and then click on Edit.
Then you will see a list of Options. Click on Image. There will be another List of Options, and click on Stretch, and Skew and set the Stretch Option to 25%, from 100% for both Horizontal, and Vertical, in the Stretch Box only. Click on OK, then Close the Page.
Then you will be asked if you want to save the Changes. You will have to do that with every Picture that you wish to Post.
Then all you have to do is click in the Manage Attachments, and then once the Manage Attachments Window is open, click on the Brows Button.
You might have to open the Program where you have your Pictures Stored. Chose what ever Picture you wish to Post, and click Open. Your Browse Box will show what Picture or Location of your Picture is, and then Click on Up Load, and you are set to go.
This is the easiest way that I have found, and you do not have to open up an account with Photo Bucket neither. I hope this helps. Bruce.

__________________
McCulloch chain saws
1- Pro Mac 60, 1- Pro Mac 700, 2- Mac 10-10 Automatic's, 2- Mini Mac 30's, 2- Mac 110's,
2- Mini Mac 35's, 1- Mac 140 with Automatic Chain Sharpener,
1- Pro Mac 10-10, 1- Mac Cat, 2- Eager Beaver
2.0's, 1- Mac 1-10
Stihl chain saws
2- 044's, 2- 034's, 2- 024's, 1- 064, 1- 084,
Strunk chain saws
1- Busy Beaver, 1- SpeeDemon Special
Stand Back, I Have A Very Extreme Case of CAD (Chain Saw Addiction Disorder).

Done it

Sorry, I had to go to bed. It's BS Saving time here, you know.

I think you're avatar pic has to be smaller. It's awhile since I've done it.

Just resize again & again until it uploads.

Q.Q.

Thanks guy's I'm back on deck and will give it a go.

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jomoco

I've known lots of guys that have been hurt, sometimes crippled by getting in over their heads doing strategic stuff.

But what kinda creeps me out is that the guy I personally knew that actually died, was on the ground and very experienced at his job for over 6 years.

Never let your groundmen chip anything alone with a big whole tree chipper, they are chipping more and more groundmen every year.

This problem is going to get worse until our immigration/cheap labor issues are addressed here in the US.

Talk about bad publicity?

jomoco

pomie

it is the corner cutting and price matching that makes this proffession dangerous and not having the right tools for the right job

pomie

and the right people for the jobs

treejames64

I've trained a lot of climbers over the years and the most injuries seem to come from the climber in the two to five year span. These guys usually have a natural gift of moving around in the trees and make formans running their own crews. There's a lot of stuff to watch out for that if you tried to explain to a newer climber it would overwhelm them. I do a lot of extremly hazzardous trees but I do not take any unnessesary risks. I rarely throw or butt catch more than a fifteen foot top. It's just not worth the risk. I also don't get greedy with cranes. I once go lazy and took a 10,000 lbs top on a large oak with a 30 ton crane (figured it weighed around 6,000 lbs) because I didn't want to waste time cranning all the limbs. The driver almost set it down in my bucket. I've got one climer I've trained that is in a wheel chair for the rest of his life as a result of using a cable flip line next to a power line. It's a dangerous job and no tree is entirely safe. Saying all that theres something that feels real good when the city comes to get you cause no one else wants to do the job. I think deep down this is why most of us got into this anyway. We need a challege and somehow feed on the danger otherwise we might as well be cutitng grass.

FlashD

I read a statistic the other day that stated that an arborist that has been in the business for 20 years has a 90% chance of having been killed or seriously injured during their career.

That seems quite high, but when you think about it, that includes statistics from the days of our forefathers as well as those hack "tree workers" that feel like they're superman. At the same time, though, this is a very dangerous business (as has already been said 1,000,000 times). Every single thing that you touch throughout the day can kill you. A chainsaw can kickback and kill you, a tree could fall and kill you, a limb can break loose and kill you, your equipment can fail and kill you, even the vehicle you drive to work on a daily basis can kill you.
This may seem quite cynical and that isn't how I mean to come across. Life in general is dangerous. How we make it through day to day life is managing risk. We wear seatbelts, chainsaw chaps, hard hats, etc. We don't behave irrationally or dangerously, for the most part. No amount of money is worth risking your life for, especially if you're battling with another company that is lowballing the deal. Your life has it's worth to you. We must assess risk, educate ourselves to the best of our ability and, at times, walk away.
Just my two cents.

Therrin

I'd agree with that completely.

Seems to me that having an attitude of "I'll do any hazardous tree for $100" is kinda like a death-wish just waiting to happen. If you don't value your own life then sooner or later that philosophy will catch up with you.

treejames64

I glad most hold to the walk away philosphy..A couple of yeas ago Asplunda, the city tree crews, and several large private outfits turnned a large live oak in a backyard that had split and was ready to fall on the neighbor's house and a set of power lines. All said it was too dangerous, let it fall and the insurance will pick it up. After the neighbor got tired of staying in a hotel for the week the city paid 12000.00 to have me put it on the ground. After winching the split together as best I could, I climbed it, roped and free cut it to the ground in less than 3 hours. I did one today for a large tree outfit in town that took me around 2 hours. I won't argue the dangers but most people that I see get injured....its on the common everyday crap that they take for granted not the risky ones....Those you listen to every bark beetle...., and every twig pop, lol.

JCONN

I agree with many of you. I once worked with a guy that take any job in the winter time to pay his bills. I went on a few jobs with him and he would price jobs just to cover cost and pay his bill that was due insane. This is not a way to run a business. If you look at a $2000.00 job and most legitamet companies are at that price range there is probably a reason for it, so you shouldn't come in at $800.00 to make your truck payment because you did save for the slow time.
Tree work is dangerous no questions but in these days so is going to the grocery store.
Chainsaws in the hands of an unexperienced homeowner is very dangerous. Chainsaws are probably one the most dangerous things you can own without a permit.

Biggaz

I think as Flash said, everything we do and use each day is inherantly dangerous. Accidents occur when we forget this, particularly when rushing to finish a job.

I'd rather climb than be on the ground, at least no-ones trying to drop stuff on me lol, and at least any error is ususally down to yourself. Constand checking of your lifeline position, lowering ropes, carabiners etc becomes second nature.

Over the years I've seen far to many cock-ups caused by being greedy and trying to save time. I've left more than one company because of this.

When I started to climb in the eighties, some one told me "there are old climbers and bold climbers" I'm an old climber.

newguy18

I'm a bold climber,i even have the ego to prove it.

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