Dangerous Profession? Need to take them all?

mdvaden · 28th July 2007, 04:26 PM

I realize that many arborist / tree accidents are not due to hazardous trees. In fact, the two I'm aware of very closely, was one guy melting the line tying himself in with the rope lowering wood laying over it, and, a tree service owner under a tree and the other guy dropping a big chunk on his head or back.

Maybe the profession is less dangerous than people expect. Maybe it's the people who rush and take shorcuts that make it seem worse than it is.

But what came to mind today, were the trees that are definitely dangerous. Around power lines, maybe on live wires. Huge trees loaded with weakness and decay, etc..

Does the wise arborist figure out a way to take-on all the projects, or does he (she) say "no thank you" this time, and let the job fall to someone else?

Do you consider your job dangerous? Or do you think its just dangerous for people who put danger into their work?

TrevMcRev · 28th July 2007, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

I realize that many arborist / tree accidents are not due to hazardous trees. In fact, the two I'm aware of very closely, was one guy melting the line tying himself in with the rope lowering wood laying over it, and, a tree service owner under a tree and the other guy dropping a big chunk on his head or back.

Maybe the profession is less dangerous than people expect. Maybe it's the people who rush and take shorcuts that make it seem worse than it is.

But what came to mind today, were the trees that are definitely dangerous. Around power lines, maybe on live wires. Huge trees loaded with weakness and decay, etc..

Does the wise arborist figure out a way to take-on all the projects, or does he (she) say "no thank you" this time, and let the job fall to someone else?

Do you consider your job dangerous? Or do you think its just dangerous for people who put danger into their work?

Md, the way i approach it is to weigh up the risks involved and determine a safe method to achieve completing the task. Then price accordingly. We have a good steady workload for what i call A & B grade clients.

There will always be a bozo tree guy who either doesnt understand the defects and hazards or doesnt care about them, and will put the safety of themselves and their team on the line, along with the public and their property all for the sake of having a job to do tommorrow.

There will also always be customers (C & D grade) who dont care about any of this either.

Both will get what they deserve sooner or later.

With enough work up your sleeve doing quality work for quality clients you dont get sucked in to doing the gnarly stuff cheap just because you have to.

Sean Freeman · 28th July 2007, 11:43 PM

Mario, for me its simply a question of assessing the risk within each task together with Stephen and Tim and coming to an agreement on the safest and most efficient way of completing the job. Risk assessment and management becomes second nature (or should!) for all of us, is my work more inherently dangerous than say any construction or mining job outdoors...essentially I don't think so, accepting that there are real problems making any such comparison.

A silly example is a tip prune to remove building-branch conflict a week or more ago, no high point out on previously lopped limb Eucalyptus platyphylla with pronounced hazard beam structure to it. We looked at our options..no EWP, no crane access either leave or climb, decided I would vertically climb primary tip around 70mm dia part of limb, with a secondary tip in the center of the tree, same height some 4/5m away horizontally, so in this way managed the perceived risk...no nasty outcomes, in fact the primary tip held perfectly well...could have climbed on that alone, but the potential risk was managed simply and quickly.

So thats a very long winded way of saying I agree with your last comment....

Quote:

Do you consider your job dangerous? Or do you think its just dangerous for people who put danger into their work?

I think sometimes some of us rush or have our male bravardo take over where intuition and intrenched risk assessment and management procedures should direct what we do and how we do our work.

Ekka · 29th July 2007, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

Does the wise arborist figure out a way to take-on all the projects, or does he (she) say "no thank you" this time, and let the job fall to someone else?

Couple of great answers so far.

No thank you is also a good option.... also a good option for D grade customers, feuding neighbours, poor access etc.

Some people think we have magic carpets and log floaters. Others think we can levitate. Some aren't interested in the practicalities of what is possible and how you'll do it ... as long as you are CHEAP!

At the end of the day we run a business which has to make profits not insurance claims.

JayD · 29th July 2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

At the end of the day we run a business which has to make profits not insurance claims.

I think our profession is potentially dangerous at all time. made more dangerous by people aproaching with , A She'll be alright attitude, We take educated risks proven over time,When aproached in a happhazzard way it's only a matter of time before something goes wrong.

This is why your hazzard/risk assessment starts as you walk down the drive noting all potenial hazzards as you go,until you arrive at the"victim" Then access the tree to see any obvious defects,targets,access,are the neigbs good or so an so's while you are doing this you should be acessing whether or not you can successfully remove this tree, or limb without damage to person and property, if you can't walk!

Male bravado should not come into the picture, definately stay with entrenched risk/ hazzard assessement.(BoaO7)

Definately price accordingly if you need a crane/ewp,etc factor it in,if you need it you need it,yes, some bozo mite get it down THIS TIME but it's only a matter of time for him!

At the end of the day we have to feed our families and pay our bills,so cheaps out, and small profit in.Otherwise as Ekka has said in previous posts it a race to the bottom.

It's better to walk than to have to pay your excess,because you bit of more than you can chew.

mdvaden · 29th July 2007, 08:32 AM

There's an arborist whom I enjoy working with in Oregon quite a bit. This morning, I just remembered one of our conversations.

We were removing trees. I did small ones myself, and hired him and his worker for the big ones.

There was a big willow in the back corner that was "rotten to the core" - dead - sat decaying for years - bunch of "sawdust" near the base from insects - just nasty. It wasn't included on that project yet, due to funds (future thing).

So I asked the other arborist "what do you do with a tree that's been dead and neglected that long?" He said "can't climb it" - crane can't get to it - a lift can't get to it - can't use a ladder.

He tells me that he asks the homeowner what is the least important thing in their backyard. "Can I drop it on your greenhouse?" Toolshed? Fence? Shrubs?

Basically, if no method allows it go be taken down, and its going to come down anyway after it rots-loose, he would rather just drop the tree on something than risk injury.

This kind of tree looked like one of those "you see one every ten years or so" type things.

JayD · 29th July 2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

There was a big willow in the back corner that was "rotten to the core" - dead - sat decaying for years - bunch of "sawdust" near the base from insects - just nasty. It wasn't included on that project yet, due to funds (future thing).

So I asked the other arborist "what do you do with a tree that's been dead and neglected that long?" He said "can't climb it" - crane can't get to it - a lift can't get to it - can't use a ladder.

He tells me that he asks the homeowner what is the least important thing in their backyard. "Can I drop it on your greenhouse?" Toolshed? Fence? Shrubs?

Basically, if no method allows it go be taken down, and its going to come down anyway after it rots-loose, he would rather just drop the tree on something than risk injury.

This kind of tree looked like one of those "you see one every ten years or so" type things.

Mario, I have heard of this done aswell but so far have not opted for this course of action,most customers do not understand,exceptable collateral damage,be it a shed,fence or carport....you know it has to come down or it could kill some one, worse case senario,most just see that option as a sign of incompetance, but if they are understanding just don't miss your target, property's nothing compared to human life, just get them to sign off on the expected damage or the relationship could change real fast.
All The Best
JayD

Houthakker · 30th July 2007, 12:38 PM

Hi, here in Sweden it has happend to me several times that customers thought we were too expensive, especially with trees that had a health that was less than bad. OK, we leave our price customer can agree or not. Trees came down anyway, one destroying three dogpounds, owner is a breeder. Stopped and asked him how and when etc, in short .... we did it ourselves together with a neighbour, a borrowed chainsaw from the local salesman that was big enough and the damage. Aaaah well, we fix that together too. So I said to the man, say that next time to me, I could have taken it down destroying only one dogpound. I had to leave fast, guy got angry for some reason. Have gotten into this several times now.

JohN Dee · 1st August 2007, 03:44 AM

Myself and my father are capable of dismantling any tree in any situation. BUT having said that, we stick to what we can get through with ease.

Our setup isn't a monstruous' setup (yet) so we tend not to take on the monstrous' kind of tree's. We pass these one's onto a bigger company in our area.

Is our job(s) dangerous, my answer: yes.

Speaking in more of a climber's perspective here. I believe that once a climber no longer fears falling, it is time for the climber to stop climbing.

Fear - Is it not what lingers in your mind whilst' working? To be afraid to cut off your hand while running the chainsaw, to be scared of your hand getting caught in the infeed roller of a chipper, to be worried about accidently cutting your life line whilst climbing? If you arn't thinking about any of these things while performing the action what stops you from making the mistake?

28th July 2007, 04:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 564	Dangerous Profession? Need to take them all? I realize that many arborist / tree accidents are not due to hazardous trees. In fact, the two I'm aware of very closely, was one guy melting the line tying himself in with the rope lowering wood laying over it, and, a tree service owner under a tree and the other guy dropping a big chunk on his head or back. Maybe the profession is less dangerous than people expect. Maybe it's the people who rush and take shorcuts that make it seem worse than it is. But what came to mind today, were the trees that are definitely dangerous. Around power lines, maybe on live wires. Huge trees loaded with weakness and decay, etc.. Does the wise arborist figure out a way to take-on all the projects, or does he (she) say "no thank you" this time, and let the job fall to someone else? Do you consider your job dangerous? Or do you think its just dangerous for people who put danger into their work? __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

29th July 2007, 08:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 564	There's an arborist whom I enjoy working with in Oregon quite a bit. This morning, I just remembered one of our conversations. We were removing trees. I did small ones myself, and hired him and his worker for the big ones. There was a big willow in the back corner that was "rotten to the core" - dead - sat decaying for years - bunch of "sawdust" near the base from insects - just nasty. It wasn't included on that project yet, due to funds (future thing). So I asked the other arborist "what do you do with a tree that's been dead and neglected that long?" He said "can't climb it" - crane can't get to it - a lift can't get to it - can't use a ladder. He tells me that he asks the homeowner what is the least important thing in their backyard. "Can I drop it on your greenhouse?" Toolshed? Fence? Shrubs? Basically, if no method allows it go be taken down, and its going to come down anyway after it rots-loose, he would rather just drop the tree on something than risk injury. This kind of tree looked like one of those "you see one every ten years or so" type things. __________________ ____________________________________ Grove of Redwood TITANS Oregon BIGOOT trap

1st August 2007, 03:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
JohN Dee Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 728	Myself and my father are capable of dismantling any tree in any situation. BUT having said that, we stick to what we can get through with ease. Our setup isn't a monstruous' setup (yet) so we tend not to take on the monstrous' kind of tree's. We pass these one's onto a bigger company in our area. Is our job(s) dangerous, my answer: yes. Speaking in more of a climber's perspective here. I believe that once a climber no longer fears falling, it is time for the climber to stop climbing. Fear - Is it not what lingers in your mind whilst' working? To be afraid to cut off your hand while running the chainsaw, to be scared of your hand getting caught in the infeed roller of a chipper, to be worried about accidently cutting your life line whilst climbing? If you arn't thinking about any of these things while performing the action what stops you from making the mistake? __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue

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30th July 2007, 12:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
Houthakker Sappling Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 39	Hi, here in Sweden it has happend to me several times that customers thought we were too expensive, especially with trees that had a health that was less than bad. OK, we leave our price customer can agree or not. Trees came down anyway, one destroying three dogpounds, owner is a breeder. Stopped and asked him how and when etc, in short .... we did it ourselves together with a neighbour, a borrowed chainsaw from the local salesman that was big enough and the damage. Aaaah well, we fix that together too. So I said to the man, say that next time to me, I could have taken it down destroying only one dogpound. I had to leave fast, guy got angry for some reason. Have gotten into this several times now.