Counterfiet in Tree Care

quercus · 7th January 2008, 11:41 PM

Wisdom from books isn't everything... But it all starts with that. Try to imagine a brainsurgeon without a degree with a few years of experience but no one can really vouch for that. Would you be willing to talk to him for a surgery on your kid? I'm guessing you would want one with the best credentials, degrees and certificates...
Or a mechanic without a degree, who's willing to do some work on your aerial platform or boom, because he has some experience in hydraulics. He never worked on aerial platforms before but an aerial platform is all about hydraulics right? Of course he says he can do the job, but no-one can really vouch for that... So are you willing to hire him for the repair?
Are you willing to hire a contractor for a project, knowing up front he's only capable of doing half of the work the project requires? I sure as hell won't...

A few of the examples above, are a matter of life and death situations for a person. How about life and death situations on a tree?

I'm willing to admit the a certificate does not give someone the insurance or good working practice. But it does start with that. Experience comes later. We're striving here for a law that says that the contractor/arborist will remain 10 years responsible for a tree he has worked on. Given the fact that this warranty expires when one, other then the responsible arborist, touches the tree with a saw or a product in the tree's surroundings during that period.

I'm all for that... Where do I sign this agreement or law? It'll discourage hacks, landscapers and so-called arborists for sure!!!

GET THOSE CERTIFICATES GUYS, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE CLIENTS SAKE, THEN GO GET IT FOR YOURSELF!!! IT MAY NOT BE A GUARANTEE FOR THE QUALITY OF WORK YOU'RE ABOUT TO DO, BUT IT SURE DOES PROVE THAT YOU ARE MOTIVATED AND THAT YOU ARE ALL FOR TREES AND EVERYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH IT!!!

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quercus

We're striving here for a law that says that the contractor/arborist will remain 10 years responsible for a tree he has worked on. Given the fact that this warranty expires when one, other then the responsible arborist, touches the tree with a saw or a product in the tree's surroundings during that period.

I'm all for that... Where do I sign this agreement or law? It'll discourage hacks, landscapers and so-called arborists for sure!!!

Great concept, however I'd be more inclined to go with 5 years because that seems to be what builders get for foundations cracking ... after 5 years no-one gives a rats ass!

Also, with a 10 year scope I think many arborists would turn to removals for fear of failure etc.

Hey Mario, there's an ole saying with references and letters etc ... you'll never see a bad one. LOL

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, field testing, witnessing the competencies or presenting video and pictorial evidence at worst ... surely that cant be hard for an international organisation that has wads of cash with people everywhere?

azrael · 8th January 2008, 04:16 AM

In Arboriculture, there are surgeons AND there are physicians...both credentialed in their own right...(Some practitioners may have evolved to be both ... a surgeon AND a physician).
They are however DIFFERENT vocations...but with a common thread...the care and protection of trees.

I see surgeons having practical practical experience with a theory base...which is VERY important if you are a surgeon...and as it should be. Personally I have utmost respect...for it takes a special ability to do difficult climbs, some in very risking situations and execute precise accurate cuts...and much, much more...and I see the all-consuming passion and pride that is held for a job well-done....

But a practitioner, on the other hand, would be knowledged in theory, and able to conceptualise a WHOLE tree health perspective...rather than on which branch to prune or what sort of cut to undertake or the safest way to lower. Those decisions are for the surgeons...not the physicians, and so it should be.

Physicians are the trouble shooters who work to help trees thrive in the built environment, those who work to prevent trees from being inappropriately located, or be assaulted by development, or impacted by poor planning and devlelopment, those who need to be observant and marry up environmental issues / protection of life / protection of assets /and retaining amenity trees in optimal conditions and those who need to stand-up in Court on justify their Arborist Reports (or challenges to them) and who need to massage greedy developers to appreciate there is financial benefit to retaining amenity trees, and try to appease frustrated clients who cannot build a carport because there is a tree 3m way....and then have to charge them for what you may or may not have been able to resolve.

Yep theres a difference, but there needs to be...and that's what I think (IMO).

However, and regardless on where you started out your life with trees ...we are all really in the same place...united (i hope), and willing to support and help each other learn and understand how valuable trees are and how to best care for them.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 06:32 AM

I take it you're not an arborist then.

Just kidding.

Past L3 here it's all theory, no practical at all. It's all about knowledge, SULE, OHS, Business plans etc etc. However to get to L5 etc you have to do pre-requisite L2/L3/L4 subjects.

So, in theory, one would assume a consulting arborist was prior an arborist. But lets say, they did a degree in botany and got a Dip Hort also then I'd be safe to say that they'd be able to consult right? Or am I wrong?

So, what do we think about consultants who have not climbed trees or worked on them practically? Are they counterfeit? And hey, I'm tossing this out there for discussion just like Mario did by starting this whole thing.

Most of the consultants I know have, I cant off the top of my head think of any who haven't. Even ole Jeremy Barrell was on the saws and ropes.

It was Shigo's motto ... "Touch Trees", he touched a few thousand up with saws himself.

mdvaden · 8th January 2008, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Hey Mario, there's an ole saying with references and letters etc ... you'll never see a bad one. LOL

There is a reason for that too... Think about it for a moment...

One of mine, is from the Department head of the landscape college program I attended with the college letterhead directed to the attention of the Oregon Contractors Board and whomever else. Would that kind of person offer or provide a good letter of reference, if it would backfire on them?

The reason you see good letters of reference, is because a lot of people just won't even do it unless it's true. If someone asked me for a letter and they were not worth the content, I'd either tell them "no way" or only write to verify a fact, like maybe "they didn't miss a day of work their entire month of working here"

From the Oregon Health Sciences University, the letter does not say "does a good job". It says "recommend" for "any" position. So the thing with letters, is THAT they are written, and WHAT they are written about - what they contain. Remember about 'ol sayings - those are passed-down by the "good 'ol boys".

With the LANDSCAPE BOARD for their test, they still allow maintenance landcape business people to submit signed documents from a certain number of customers, with a description. Photos could be added with them as well.

Point is, they are not removing all the RESPONSIBILITY from the homeowner here. They are setting a minimum standard. They expect the homeowners and others to pick up the slack and verify years of experience above and beyond, or ask for more photos or references themselves.

quercus · 8th January 2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I take it you're not an arborist then.

So, what do we think about consultants who have not climbed trees or worked on them practically? Are they counterfeit?

.

They sure are to me... Sorry MD, but that's the way I see it. It's like a parachute instructor without a single jump... Or like a surf instructor with a fear of water...
I find it even impossible to give a quote or advice to a customer without actually knowing what you are talking about.

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Hey Mario, there's an ole saying with references and letters etc ... you'll never see a bad one. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

There is a reason for that too... Think about it for a moment...

The ole saying goes if you did get one you'd either throw it out or not show it, also negative ones are called complaints and who publishes/shows them? Little emphasis is placed on testamonials and references for that matter and that's why you phone people and talk to them one on one otherwise you'll find the probability of hiring less than excpected will rise dramatically.

When doing this phoning practice it's called reference checking and you should have a list of questions prepared. The most important part is to clarify the person was in fact the manager of that applicant ... coz many put their mates down as their manager etc and try to bypass the real boss who gave them a hard time so they'd piss off for a new job.

newguy18 · 8th January 2008, 01:53 PM

Around here it seems to be a trend that some guy gets a license and insurance and a couple towns over there are 2 isa certified arborists but after that they hire a bunch of mexicans[no offense intended] and go to work.These are people that get hired as soon as they walk in or the guy with the biz goes to them.No accidents that i know of but if they did happen they didn't make the paper.Is that internationl?

mdvaden · 8th January 2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quercus

They sure are to me... Sorry MD, but that's the way I see it. It's like a parachute instructor without a single jump... Or like a surf instructor with a fear of water...
I find it even impossible to give a quote or advice to a customer without actually knowing what you are talking about.

Let's use that form of logic and apply it to some other examples, to see if it merits use.

The example I used elsewhere, using some CLIMBER'S logic, was that a residential firefighter is not a firefighter, unless they regularly fire-fight in high rises and forest fires, plus retain and use all that equipment. That also would include getting the pilots license for the big planes, and operating the planes, that drop water and fire retardant.

Likewise, a family physician would not be a "doctor", unless he could do it all - testing and performance of brain surgery, dentistry, optical surgery, the whole gammet.

I call it "dismantling statements" by component pieces.

And beside that, I can always modify my images so it's obvious that I had to have climbed to do the work...

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 06:21 PM

See Mario, there's the evidence in that very picture that it was a flamin green keeper who looks after the tree.

newguy18 · 8th January 2008, 06:25 PM

can't we all get along?

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 06:28 PM

We do get along, that's why we can discuss stuff, debate is healthy.

mdvaden · 8th January 2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

We do get along, that's why we can discuss stuff, debate is healthy.

Sort of like Fraternity hazing without anything dangerous

Ekka · 8th January 2008, 06:44 PM

Hey Mario, that guy in blue in that pic was paintshopped in I reckon. Why's his arm like that and he so small in comparison ... something "suss" with that.

7th January 2008, 11:41 PM	#26 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 421	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care Wisdom from books isn't everything... But it all starts with that. Try to imagine a brainsurgeon without a degree with a few years of experience but no one can really vouch for that. Would you be willing to talk to him for a surgery on your kid? I'm guessing you would want one with the best credentials, degrees and certificates... Or a mechanic without a degree, who's willing to do some work on your aerial platform or boom, because he has some experience in hydraulics. He never worked on aerial platforms before but an aerial platform is all about hydraulics right? Of course he says he can do the job, but no-one can really vouch for that... So are you willing to hire him for the repair? Are you willing to hire a contractor for a project, knowing up front he's only capable of doing half of the work the project requires? I sure as hell won't... A few of the examples above, are a matter of life and death situations for a person. How about life and death situations on a tree? I'm willing to admit the a certificate does not give someone the insurance or good working practice. But it does start with that. Experience comes later. We're striving here for a law that says that the contractor/arborist will remain 10 years responsible for a tree he has worked on. Given the fact that this warranty expires when one, other then the responsible arborist, touches the tree with a saw or a product in the tree's surroundings during that period. I'm all for that... Where do I sign this agreement or law? It'll discourage hacks, landscapers and so-called arborists for sure!!! GET THOSE CERTIFICATES GUYS, IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE CLIENTS SAKE, THEN GO GET IT FOR YOURSELF!!! IT MAY NOT BE A GUARANTEE FOR THE QUALITY OF WORK YOU'RE ABOUT TO DO, BUT IT SURE DOES PROVE THAT YOU ARE MOTIVATED AND THAT YOU ARE ALL FOR TREES AND EVERYTHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH IT!!! Last edited by quercus : 7th January 2008 at 11:46 PM. Reason: NOT COMPLETE

8th January 2008, 04:16 AM	#28 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 313	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care In Arboriculture, there are surgeons AND there are physicians...both credentialed in their own right...(Some practitioners may have evolved to be both ... a surgeon AND a physician). They are however DIFFERENT vocations...but with a common thread...the care and protection of trees. I see surgeons having practical practical experience with a theory base...which is VERY important if you are a surgeon...and as it should be. Personally I have utmost respect...for it takes a special ability to do difficult climbs, some in very risking situations and execute precise accurate cuts...and much, much more...and I see the all-consuming passion and pride that is held for a job well-done.... But a practitioner, on the other hand, would be knowledged in theory, and able to conceptualise a WHOLE tree health perspective...rather than on which branch to prune or what sort of cut to undertake or the safest way to lower. Those decisions are for the surgeons...not the physicians, and so it should be. Physicians are the trouble shooters who work to help trees thrive in the built environment, those who work to prevent trees from being inappropriately located, or be assaulted by development, or impacted by poor planning and devlelopment, those who need to be observant and marry up environmental issues / protection of life / protection of assets /and retaining amenity trees in optimal conditions and those who need to stand-up in Court on justify their Arborist Reports (or challenges to them) and who need to massage greedy developers to appreciate there is financial benefit to retaining amenity trees, and try to appease frustrated clients who cannot build a carport because there is a tree 3m way....and then have to charge them for what you may or may not have been able to resolve. Yep theres a difference, but there needs to be...and that's what I think (IMO). However, and regardless on where you started out your life with trees ...we are all really in the same place...united (i hope), and willing to support and help each other learn and understand how valuable trees are and how to best care for them.

8th January 2008, 06:32 AM	#29 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care I take it you're not an arborist then. Just kidding. Past L3 here it's all theory, no practical at all. It's all about knowledge, SULE, OHS, Business plans etc etc. However to get to L5 etc you have to do pre-requisite L2/L3/L4 subjects. So, in theory, one would assume a consulting arborist was prior an arborist. But lets say, they did a degree in botany and got a Dip Hort also then I'd be safe to say that they'd be able to consult right? Or am I wrong? So, what do we think about consultants who have not climbed trees or worked on them practically? Are they counterfeit? And hey, I'm tossing this out there for discussion just like Mario did by starting this whole thing. Most of the consultants I know have, I cant off the top of my head think of any who haven't. Even ole Jeremy Barrell was on the saws and ropes. It was Shigo's motto ... "Touch Trees", he touched a few thousand up with saws himself. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 01:53 PM	#33 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 4,062	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care Around here it seems to be a trend that some guy gets a license and insurance and a couple towns over there are 2 isa certified arborists but after that they hire a bunch of mexicans[no offense intended] and go to work.These are people that get hired as soon as they walk in or the guy with the biz goes to them.No accidents that i know of but if they did happen they didn't make the paper.Is that internationl? __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA "Everybody's hell on safety." G.f.beranek. www.atreestory.com

8th January 2008, 06:21 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care See Mario, there's the evidence in that very picture that it was a flamin green keeper who looks after the tree. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 06:25 PM	#36 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 4,062	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care can't we all get along? __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA "Everybody's hell on safety." G.f.beranek. www.atreestory.com

8th January 2008, 06:28 PM	#37 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care We do get along, that's why we can discuss stuff, debate is healthy. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 06:44 PM	#39 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Counterfiet in Tree Care Hey Mario, that guy in blue in that pic was paintshopped in I reckon. Why's his arm like that and he so small in comparison ... something "suss" with that. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th January 2008, 07:14 PM	#40 (permalink)
mdvaden Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 451