Councils pays back tree removers

shaggs · 22nd March 2008, 02:01 PM

G'day all,

Found this article in our main sunday paper in Sydney

Council couldn't contain itself | The Daily Telegraph

The council has fought back at the people who illegally chopped down 20 trees to improve their view.

They have placed two shipping containers there to punish those responsible. Aparently they will stay for up to three years.

Other councils have installed shade cloth in killed trees.

Good on 'em I reckon. I realisie it may be punishing the majority, but it definately sends a very clear message to all those contemplating "improving their view".

Cheers

JohN Dee · 22nd March 2008, 04:16 PM

Serves em bloody right. Yes, some people do suffer because of others, but as my parents punished us kids one in all in, IT WORKS for the better.

Should plant some nice big fat lilly pillies

DBS · 23rd March 2008, 12:29 AM

whats a furphie? A lie?

Can you imagine a drunken idiot taking time out to cut down the tree's all in a row, I don't think so. Even 'drunken idiots from elsewhere ' have there limits. Somebody is telling furphies.

-Daryl

Ekka · 23rd March 2008, 01:36 AM

Quote:

"But it's like if you can't find the perpetrator in school, so everybody is held back for detention.''

I'd like to do the same to them everytime they hack a tree, dont fill a pot hole or have some corrupt azzhole in there approving waterfront developments and getting kick backs..

Idiots, and I assure you if you did the same with containers in your own yard you'd soon be asked to remove them.

Here's the council's foreshore management draft plans.

Port Stephens Council: Your council: Port Stephens Foreshore Management Plan

Here's their contact information if you'd like to email them.

Contacting Council

council@portstephens.nsw.gov.au

This isn't about justice, it's about deterent and punishment. They punish the lot with tactics and strategies illegal to us.

Far as I'm concerned, Port Stephens Council

Above the law eh. I hope a lawyer lives along there and burns your azzes.

They spent $10k putting them there and perhaps same getting rid of them. That could be reward money, replant money etc.

Properties with views have had this occurring nearby for ages, nothing new. You cant have cameras on every tree however to prevent this sort of damage and be alerted means community onside not offside.

Ask yourselves this council, if a resident there rang in asked for some crown thinning or lifting to help their view would you have listened? Doubt it. You'd probably dig in and give them the rule book. So people now take matters into their own hands.

A proactive and approachable position can work. In other areas councils have engaged nearby communities to manage local parks and tennis courts etc. They get reduced rates in compensation for it and do the mowing and facility handling. I recall renting courts and nets from private houses directly opposite parks and there was a community group who looked after it.

So, now you painted yourselves into the alien corner, pulled out your big illegal stick and run around like rabid 50's Russian's!

Idiots, expect more bad news now, dont be surprised of you started a little tree poisoning war now.

Sean Freeman · 23rd March 2008, 03:04 AM

Its funny you know perhaps our attitudes would be slightly different if it were built infrastructure that had been damaged/vandalised and destroyed, but because its trees, and trees that no one individual owns, not in a neat little garden surrounded by a neat little fence and a neatly mown lawn then its deemed somehow less of an issue to destroy natural assets??

(But a word of caution newspapers do not print the truth, radio and TV do not broadcast the truth they sell a product and package it the way they believe it will sell best so I always tread carefully when basing my response upon newspaper reports Phrases implying spurious correlations to repressive government systems like Soviet Communism carry absolutely no weight with me they merely serve to undermine the strength of the arguement being presented)

I have seen a fair bit of this in the 3 months I've been working in the Gold Coast, oddly stunted dune vegetation in front of million dollar apartments...hmmm I wonder who did that????? Can't prove anything, even still photos have a hard time standing up in court.

It would be great if we actually got involved in how our local community runs, and perhaps some on this forum do but my experience is that the vast 95% majority don't, and don't want to either. There is a an attitude that its not our responsibility, we seem to want a higher authority to manage all the minutia of a straining community but don't want their management to impact on what we percieve to be our domain at all....potential views included!

Councils know they will very very rarely (if ever) get a conviction over such environmental damage, and the consequences are pathetically minor in any case.....Personally I appluad the council for drawing the line in the sand hopefully they follow through and do the same in other instances...I have seen trees poisoned with poison trails running back to individual residences...yet the law is remarkably impotent to provide punishment for such vandalism of property owned in the end by all of us!

I have never come across any authority that got it right all the time indeed rarely do they get it right most of the time! Why is that surprising to any of us.....councils, businesses, etc..are made up of the people just like us, they loose sight of the big picture and stuff up just like us, but more importantly need assistance in improving the way they do things, just like all of us.

Councils all over Oz have various variations of vegetation management/protection all aimed at preventing the continued decline and destruction of the environment in which we live, some do it better than others, some have models that draw the people into the process better than others, but not one that I have ever come across has the enforcement mechanisms and tools to actually effectively monitor their huge tree assets, and effectively enforce the standards and values they articulate.

However we actual live and work amongst the council (public) owned tree assets, we actually can, when we want to, play a big part in maintaining the quality of the environment around us.....we expect much from our local authorities (and sure much of it is justified expectations) we often have standards set for them in their business activities, management practices that many of us (IMO) do not live up to ourselves.

I don't work for any one council, i don't think highly of any politician in general (I don't know any Aussie polies personally) I do know of many serious problems in the many LGA's I do on occaision work for, but I also know a significant number of council tree officers in Queensland and without exception they all are passionate about the trees they look after, and when things go pear shaped they are far more frustrated than you or I.......those people need our assistance and support to do a better job in their role in our communities.

I guess I've meandered well and truely off track, sorry.

Ekka · 23rd March 2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

those people need our assistance and support to do a better job in their role in our communities.

Here was another one a while back, wonder what happened? Certainly not on.

Source: Im no tree poisoner! | thedaily.com.au

Quote:

Im no tree poisoner!

8:00a.m. 18 March 2006

By KATHY SUNDSTROM A SHAME screen erected by Caloundra Council to embarrass poisoners of a 20-year-old cotton tree has sparked a legal fracas, with a restaurant owner claiming its harming trade.

The three-metre high and 9.9-metre-wide screen of black shade cloth has been placed on the Esplanade in front of the Wung Nam Thai restaurant, partially blocking its view of the Pumicestone Passage.

But for restaurant owner Nadau Stott, the greatest harm is that customers now believe she may have poisoned the tree.

Neighbouring shops have heard customers say they will no longer go to the restaurant as I am a tree poisoner, Mrs Stott said.

It has harmed my trade and my staff dont understand when I have to tell them I cant keep them on as business is too slow.

Mrs Stott has employed solicitor Kyle Kimbal, partner of Sajen Legal, to fight the battle with city hall for her as she is a Thai-born widow who battles to speak English.

She can understand English, but not well enough to fight with council, Mr Kimball said.

Caloundra Council is refusing to budge and said the screen was put up as part of its guidelines for Tree Pruning/Removal and Management in Public Places, set down in October 2003.

Vandalism of vegetation, which includes tree poisoning, costs councils more than $70,000 annually, a spokesperson said.

Very few people are prosecuted in relation to such vandalism because it is difficult to prove who did the damage. Education wasnt working.

In the case of this particular tree, a cotton tree which was at least 20 years old, the guidelines have been implemented. A tree has been planted to replace the poisoned tree and the screen will remain in place until the tree has grown to the height of the poisoned tree.

Mr Kimball said councils policy may have been a good attempt to address vandalism, but it was denying his client natural justice.

treevet · 23rd March 2008, 08:44 AM

Laws are only as good as their enforcements. Not very good in most cases to totally worthless quite often. Here there is triple damages awarded in court victories for tree damages. Whatever is awarded is tripled. This takes one to initiate the suit. If one has wrongfully removed public or their own trees then who will be successful in showing loss to claim and win? City councils take a 4 to 3 win (7 mbrs) to decide what is right or wrong. Quite often if one side (the 3 or loser side ) doesn t get their way, .....the next time the 4 side (winnerside) wants something even if purely right, they will get shot down in the name of revenge.

It makes your stomach upset to see how the machine works.

I agree Sean, newspapers and news are so jaded around here that truth is just coincidental often. Most often they are trying to incite controversy to sell their rags and on tv their commercial spaces.

Ekka · 23rd March 2008, 02:28 PM

There's an epidemic of this on the Sunshine Coast.

Here in Brisbane we've even cut trees down houses away for views so the guy up the top of the hill can widen their view. They pay for removals down the hill.

Just a few weeks ago at Manly we cut down 2 washingtonias of the neighbours as they were blocking the sea view from the new 2 story front deck. In this one the street ran at right angles to the beach so you had the view sideways straight at 2 ugly washingtonias. They're gone now, cost the owner $1000 with stump grinds. The lady next door got a bargain free anyway.

Gold Coast waterfront view of broadwater. Council plants new trees, maybe dozen of them (circu 1998) infront of houses on the beach front.

Few weeks later they're all run over with tyre marks everywhere, same again for replants.

Here in this one a councillor did the deed himself. A lop job, it'll bush up real nice.

Source: New Maroochy councillor faces $300 tree fine | thedaily.com.au

Quote:

New Maroochy councillor faces $300 tree fine

8:00a.m. 1 April 2005

By ALLAN LANDER A MAROOCHY Shire councillor may be fined $300 after he admitted chainsawing a large tree at Dulong Lookout without permission.

Division one councillor Greg Rogerson yesterday said he pruned the large tree in late February but disputed it was a 60-year-old fig tree.

Mayor Joe Natoli said the council had launched an investigation into the matter and if Mr Rogerson was found to have breached the guidelines, he could be fined.

We are conducting an investigation; he will be treated same way as any other resident or ratepayer. The end result could be a fine of $300, Mr Natoli said.

Mr Rogerson said he pruned the tree with good intentions, the weekend before a new plaque was opened at the lookout.

I believe this was canopy management, and it should continue to grow and develop, he said.

(But) I accept full responsibility for it.

I expect to be treated like anyone else would be in this situation. If that means copping a fine, so be it.

According to Mr Natoli, Mr Rogerson told fellow councillors he had been approached by a member of Rotary to remove the tree which partly obscured the view from Dulong Lookout.

But Mr Natoli said he believed the tree had not been cut down.

My understanding is that the tree was cut to a point where it will re-shoot in a period of years, so itll grow back, Mr Natoli said.

Technically, the tree has not been cut down, but it has had a major pruning.

But I gather Mr Rogerson did not get council approval, the mayor said.

Here a councillor is looking outside the box for solutions and gets slammed. This is just after the event above.

Tree pruning bid in Noosa gets chop | thedaily.com.au

Quote:

Tree pruning bid in Noosa gets chop

8:00a.m. 22 July 2005

By Nathan Evans NOOSA Council yesterday cut to a stump a bid to allow council-supervised tree lopping on public land to improve property views and values.

Division-three councillor Peter McGregor said he proposed the plan, which would enable property owners to apply to council for permission to trim trees on private and public land in the interests of view preservation, to curb illegal tree clearing.

My ultimate goal, my ambition, my aim is to curb incidents of environmental vandalism. I want to stop it and I thought that this may be part of a way to resolve that issue that affects the whole community, he said.

This does happen all the time, but were only reactive, were not proactive and I think that we should have a policy in place that can help us solve the problem.

Councillors blasted the plan as impossible to manage and a bureaucratic nightmare as they did not have sufficient resources to process an anticipated flood of applications, nor determine where the lopping should begin and end.

They questioned whether trees should be lopped to ground level to allow all residents of a multi storeyed apartment block a view, or only lopped at the top to placate top storey unit residents.

Noosas long-term appearance under the policy was also raised as a major concern.

Both Mayor Bob Abbot and councillor Vivien Griffin denounced the proposal as bending the law to suit potential law breakers.

You dont find these stories in mainstream media, you have to search the local papers (local rags) of the areas.

treevet · 23rd March 2008, 03:24 PM

I d love to see a pict of this view they re all being bad boys about. Is it just breathtaking?

Ekka · 23rd March 2008, 03:32 PM

Some of them are, yes, and add perhaps $100K+ to the houses value.

treevet · 23rd March 2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Some of them are, yes, and add perhaps $100K+ to the houses value.

Pay 3 hun for the fine? Pretty good investment in trouble/risk-reward.

JayD · 23rd March 2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Some of them are, yes, and add perhaps $100K+ to the houses value.

A small price to pay for increase in value like that, Even a fine up to 10K is an investment when you instantly gain that sort of money.

Sean Freeman · 23rd March 2008, 03:52 PM

Thats one of the biggest problems right there....and not just limited to foreshore development either, the value (??) of large apartment constructions can be over $10M even the largest bonds and fines pale into insignificance compared to the advantages of pushing on with building timelines irrespective of approvals and management plans.

playfordtree · 27th March 2008, 02:30 AM

Hey Shaggs,

here's the story on "A Current Affair".
Went to air tonight.

Council View Row - ninemsn Video

Sad about the trees

but,

the rest of it's friggin hilarious.
Guilty looking homeowners, Nazi like council.

Sounds like it came straight out of a Monty Python movie.

22nd March 2008, 02:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Councils pays back tree removers G'day all, Found this article in our main sunday paper in Sydney Council couldn't contain itself \| The Daily Telegraph The council has fought back at the people who illegally chopped down 20 trees to improve their view. They have placed two shipping containers there to punish those responsible. Aparently they will stay for up to three years. Other councils have installed shade cloth in killed trees. Good on 'em I reckon. I realisie it may be punishing the majority, but it definately sends a very clear message to all those contemplating "improving their view". Cheers

22nd March 2008, 04:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
JohN Dee Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 729	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Serves em bloody right. Yes, some people do suffer because of others, but as my parents punished us kids one in all in, IT WORKS for the better. Should plant some nice big fat lilly pillies __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue

23rd March 2008, 12:29 AM	#3 (permalink)
DBS Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: CT USA Posts: 204	Re: Councils pays back tree removers whats a furphie? A lie? Can you imagine a drunken idiot taking time out to cut down the tree's all in a row, I don't think so. Even 'drunken idiots from elsewhere ' have there limits. Somebody is telling furphies. -Daryl __________________ Stihl MS 200T Stihl MS 361

23rd March 2008, 03:04 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,649	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Its funny you know perhaps our attitudes would be slightly different if it were built infrastructure that had been damaged/vandalised and destroyed, but because its trees, and trees that no one individual owns, not in a neat little garden surrounded by a neat little fence and a neatly mown lawn then its deemed somehow less of an issue to destroy natural assets?? (But a word of caution newspapers do not print the truth, radio and TV do not broadcast the truth they sell a product and package it the way they believe it will sell best so I always tread carefully when basing my response upon newspaper reports Phrases implying spurious correlations to repressive government systems like Soviet Communism carry absolutely no weight with me they merely serve to undermine the strength of the arguement being presented) I have seen a fair bit of this in the 3 months I've been working in the Gold Coast, oddly stunted dune vegetation in front of million dollar apartments...hmmm I wonder who did that????? Can't prove anything, even still photos have a hard time standing up in court. It would be great if we actually got involved in how our local community runs, and perhaps some on this forum do but my experience is that the vast 95% majority don't, and don't want to either. There is a an attitude that its not our responsibility, we seem to want a higher authority to manage all the minutia of a straining community but don't want their management to impact on what we percieve to be our domain at all....potential views included! Councils know they will very very rarely (if ever) get a conviction over such environmental damage, and the consequences are pathetically minor in any case.....Personally I appluad the council for drawing the line in the sand hopefully they follow through and do the same in other instances...I have seen trees poisoned with poison trails running back to individual residences...yet the law is remarkably impotent to provide punishment for such vandalism of property owned in the end by all of us! I have never come across any authority that got it right all the time indeed rarely do they get it right most of the time! Why is that surprising to any of us.....councils, businesses, etc..are made up of the people just like us, they loose sight of the big picture and stuff up just like us, but more importantly need assistance in improving the way they do things, just like all of us. Councils all over Oz have various variations of vegetation management/protection all aimed at preventing the continued decline and destruction of the environment in which we live, some do it better than others, some have models that draw the people into the process better than others, but not one that I have ever come across has the enforcement mechanisms and tools to actually effectively monitor their huge tree assets, and effectively enforce the standards and values they articulate. However we actual live and work amongst the council (public) owned tree assets, we actually can, when we want to, play a big part in maintaining the quality of the environment around us.....we expect much from our local authorities (and sure much of it is justified expectations) we often have standards set for them in their business activities, management practices that many of us (IMO) do not live up to ourselves. I don't work for any one council, i don't think highly of any politician in general (I don't know any Aussie polies personally) I do know of many serious problems in the many LGA's I do on occaision work for, but I also know a significant number of council tree officers in Queensland and without exception they all are passionate about the trees they look after, and when things go pear shaped they are far more frustrated than you or I.......those people need our assistance and support to do a better job in their role in our communities. I guess I've meandered well and truely off track, sorry. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

23rd March 2008, 08:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
treevet Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 823	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Laws are only as good as their enforcements. Not very good in most cases to totally worthless quite often. Here there is triple damages awarded in court victories for tree damages. Whatever is awarded is tripled. This takes one to initiate the suit. If one has wrongfully removed public or their own trees then who will be successful in showing loss to claim and win? City councils take a 4 to 3 win (7 mbrs) to decide what is right or wrong. Quite often if one side (the 3 or loser side ) doesn t get their way, .....the next time the 4 side (winnerside) wants something even if purely right, they will get shot down in the name of revenge. It makes your stomach upset to see how the machine works. I agree Sean, newspapers and news are so jaded around here that truth is just coincidental often. Most often they are trying to incite controversy to sell their rags and on tv their commercial spaces.

23rd March 2008, 03:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
treevet Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 823	Re: Councils pays back tree removers I d love to see a pict of this view they re all being bad boys about. Is it just breathtaking?

23rd March 2008, 03:32 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Some of them are, yes, and add perhaps $100K+ to the houses value. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

23rd March 2008, 03:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,649	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Thats one of the biggest problems right there....and not just limited to foreshore development either, the value (??) of large apartment constructions can be over $10M even the largest bonds and fines pale into insignificance compared to the advantages of pushing on with building timelines irrespective of approvals and management plans. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

27th March 2008, 02:30 AM	#14 (permalink)
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Adelaide Australia Posts: 337	Re: Councils pays back tree removers Hey Shaggs, here's the story on "A Current Affair". Went to air tonight. Council View Row - ninemsn Video Sad about the trees but, the rest of it's friggin hilarious. Guilty looking homeowners, Nazi like council. Sounds like it came straight out of a Monty Python movie. __________________ I Drink Therefore I am.