Controversial pruning on protected trees Durack Primary School - QBuild

Ekka · 27th August 2007, 08:53 PM

Was driving past Durack Primary School when the sight of the large topped tree almost burned a hole through my retina!

I rang Brisbane City Council prior to entering the school to ask about any protection orders at the school.

Yes, SNV (significant native vegetation) for the entire property. Then asked if there were any permits for tree works issued last 3 months, NO was the answer. BCC ref 23450466

Dropped into the school and was told work done perhaps 4 weeks to 6 weeks ago arranged by Q-Build.

Was given phone to Q-Build and received the usual drill of mind your own business. Officer was unaware of any protection orders, in fact claimed they weren't told so how are they supposed to know!

The story I heard was school requests pruning of tree, Q-Build arrange 3 tree loppers to quote it, end of story.

I asked who wrote out the pruning specification and decides what gets pruned etc? I asked if the "tree loppers" get a spec sheet or just quote what they thinks best? I asked why the silkyoak was topped?

Didn't get any answers but was told that they dont answer to me and dont like the tone of the call. Typical.

So, 3 tree companies all dont know the rules, Q-Build dont know the rules, unknowns at the school prescribe tree works, gee ...

... are you noticing the same broken record emanating here? Last time it was 660 Kessels road in this thread, here we are again, nothing changed except these trees are protected.

Now I have a letter on my desk from the BCC Lord Mayor's Office and from Q-Build's office about the last fiasco. So, looks like I'll be writing again commencing with an email to BCC VPO officers to investigate.

Lets see what happens here, I wonder if anyone gets fined?

The 3 last pictures are a gum in the playground area that was topped a few years back, I guess around 1998 to 2001 region judging by the growth. I wonder what management plans are in place for that ever present hazard.

Topped gum with a playground beneath it!

Quintrex · 27th August 2007, 09:12 PM

Hi Ekka,
I had no idea that rough tree work was so rife in Qld! I take it that Q Build is Qld public works dept?
In NSW the DPW&S (now dept of Commerce) requires that all works be carried out to the relevant Aus Standard as a minimum and that all relevant industry codes of practice are adhered to in every trade. Most contract organisers and works inspectors are aware of at least the basic necessity to prune to collars etc.
looks like there's a great need for public education up there!
Steve

Ekka · 27th August 2007, 11:06 PM

Before one can educate and learn they must create acceptance of information rather than challenge your rights to question.

You find a great many here ready to gob off with their vast pool of ignorance.

Then they dig in, create some reasoning for their defence and most importantly seek allies as there's safety in numbers. Pack mentality.

I dare say it would be public record who did this job, however be assured the company that did it would be proud of it, and proud to not have even enquired it was protected, and they my friend are prolific contractors to Q-Build. You have even witnessed so called "qualified arborists" topping trees.

I am not surprised as I know, I live here, I hear the crap daily, I have customers ring and inform me of malpractices. The job I did around the corner from that school the customer asked if pruning like that was OK?

People are bamboozled here as the trees on govt land display abominations the general public has difficulty accepting as right.

Ekka · 28th August 2007, 12:12 AM

Copy of email sent to Minister of Public Works office. They responded to previous case so have tacked this to it as all falls into the same bucket. Was also CC'd to Lord Mayors office.

Quote:

----- Original Message -----
From: We are all about trees
To: pwhict at ministerial.qld.gov.au
Cc: lordmayor at brisbane.qld.gov.au
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 4:59 PM
Subject: ref DPW01832/07 Open Public email (BCC ref 23450466)

Attention ********** re: Your letter dated 02 August 2007

*******,

You responded to a letter I sent to BCC Lord Mayor.

You seemed to have missed a key point in that letter and I was amused to see the contractor for the works they done at 660 Kessels road received a warning.

See, the error lays in Q-Build not asking for quotes on specified work. Was the request so vague that it was something like, "get some quotes to prune that tree, the janitor said it needs doing"? There's perhaps no actual detail, and most likely no-one suitably qualified in Q-Build writing the quotation specification ... which also then raises the concern of why prune anyway?

The contractor to a certain degree is at fault too for not performing work to Australian Standards 4373, however does each contractor quote on what they think/guess/wonder is OK? What if the Q-Build requested a quote for exactly what they delivered, a topped/stubbed hazard tree?

You mentioned in the letter that contractors are ....
aware of QBuild's requirements in relation to performance, conduct and compliance with relevant legislation and Qbuild standards, policies, systems and business requirements
Now I don't know if Australian Standards are legislation or not however it may be wise for you to include in your wording that contractors abide by Australian Standards in addition to QBuild's as it appears QBuild isn't aware of any standards when it comes to trees, assessing them or working on them.

Here's another recent case at a school.

You can see for yourself the details on www.treeworld.info forum, rather than duplicate just follow the link below.

Controversial pruning on protected trees Durack Primary School - QBuild

In this case the entire school premises had a BCC Vegetation Protection Order (VPO) on it, a significant native vegetation order (SNV) but hey, who cares it's QBuild and they can do what they like apparently, well that's the message we see as professionals.

Now we have another abomination on our skyline advertising topping and lopping, worse still, in a school where young minds are being conditioned to the 2007 QBuild model of tree care.

I'd like to see you address and respond to this, and also a copy of this was forwarded to the Lord Mayors office.

Regards
Eric Frei
PS: It would be appropriate that suitably qualified arborists capable of assessing trees and writing reports submitted work specifications to be performed and were present when they were performed, or substituting that a BCC officer suitably qualified and capable do the same. Then get a tree company that isn't "TREE LOPPERS", ironic isn't it, tree lopping is a malpractice form of pruning so why use the term let alone name your business after it?

a_lopa · 28th August 2007, 01:42 AM

How a goverment dept can get away with that astounds me!

TrevMcRev · 28th August 2007, 05:47 AM

This is pretty bad. At a school too. How many parents are gonna see that and think "well the school would surely be doing the right thing so we better get our trees at home done too"

pomme · 28th August 2007, 03:51 PM

exactly the same problems over here.

Ekka · 29th August 2007, 10:00 PM

NEWS FLASH!

Today I received a phone call from the Brisbane City Council environmental section telling me that they have no authority on State or Commonwealth land. Their vegetation protection orders are a toothless tiger.

Although they have protection orders they cannot enforce anything or do anything.

As State Schools are State land no trees are protected by council laws.

I was advised to contact the State Government about the matter which I did.

I rang the number right at the very bottom of the this page of the Dept of Natural Resources.

Regional vegetation management codes

I was then told to ring the Ipswich office as Brisbane area is looked after by them.

I rang that office and reception put me through to Danny, who put me through to Doreen who put me through to Melissa who took a message for some-one to call me.

So far 5 people and no-one knows anything about tree rules in State properties such as schools. Doreen did mention that the schools could also be leased by the Education dept and that could affect things.

So I'm waiting, might shoot off an email to if zero back in 24 hours. From the outside looking in looks like there'll be a big fat ZERO protection, if that's the case then we need to go to our State politician as well as write to Premier Beatty.

TREE-SURFER · 30th August 2007, 02:24 AM

Sounds a bit like "ONE RULE FOR 'US' AND ANOTHER ONE FOR 'THEM'"

Sean Freeman · 30th August 2007, 05:04 AM

The variation in influence of tree protection across different land tenures and ownership is a common problem all over the world, certainly not unique to Qld. Seems to me the real issue is how best to encourage large companies and corporations to adopt the very same BMP's for the management of their vegetation/tree assets as they implement and demand in the management of their built assets.

For me getting to explain to regional asset management what modern Arboriculture can offer in terms they can easily understand and appreciate is the task at hand. As I've stated before QBuild is a very large organisation, they are divided up into regional business units and futher divided within each region. Despite all the potential and actual structural problems from our perspective within their organisation the opportunity still exists to help them move beyond this kind of destructive, costly and substandard tree work.
It is a slow, and at times frustrating process but our own National Standards do exist, other states have codes of practice, WH&S is gradually getting things moving....BMP's and the value for money spent they represent are increasingly hard to ignore, I'm confident things will change in our state..even up North.

Ekka · 31st August 2007, 02:50 AM

A guy called Daryl left message yesterday 4.10pm got message today thanks Optus

Bit of message leaving BS ping pong and finally got hold of him.

State govt rules, not sure, generally the State Govt is concerned about remnant vegetation and generally greater than 1 hectare in size.

Asked about individual trees, waterways etc ... nothing according to them however there is some info that may help if you wish to research the 500page+ legeslative documents.

There you go, load of shit I knew it would be.

Unworkable, uncoordinanted, no logical laid out protection orders, no blanket protection orders ... basically they're just worried about land clearing.

What a joke.

He did say though that Australian Standards of pruning and any other relative state or federal rules/laws need to be up held.

So, ultimately there's no rule as to who can assess, diagnose or work on a tree, you got tree loppers advising ignorants about tree care, as there's no rules.

And they reckon this is the smart state.

treeseer · 4th September 2007, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

For me getting to explain to regional asset management what modern Arboriculture can offer in terms they can easily understand and appreciate is the task at hand...the opportunity still exists to help them move beyond this kind of destructive, costly and substandard tree work...I'm confident things will change in our state..even up North.

Very productive approach. Attacking and criticizing may be understandable, but where does it get you? Attacked and criticized back,most likely.

The pic of the silk oak--Grevillea?-- is a real gut-wrencher.

Dissecting a failed tree due to loptopping would be powerful evidence of a reason to change. So would highlighting the effects of standard-compliant tree care.

Ekka · 4th September 2007, 05:07 AM

Have directed this thread to legal people who confirmed as below.

Quote:

Dear Eric,

You are right, I looked at an example Natural Asset Local Law and it applies to parks and council land and to private land but not generally to State land and State Departments.

I am not sure if this problem of inadequate protection for trees on State land can be addressed by changing the local law or if is a broader problem to do with the powers of local governments under the Local Government Act.

It appears, we have an inadequate system. The Council know it and so do wise tree people, problem is getting it changed.

Here's what I found of the State Laws

http://www.nrw.qld.gov.au/vegetation...ode_nov_06.pdf

I have written to relevant people regarding the anomolies and await their response, fact is, it's a botch up.

27th August 2007, 11:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Before one can educate and learn they must create acceptance of information rather than challenge your rights to question. You find a great many here ready to gob off with their vast pool of ignorance. Then they dig in, create some reasoning for their defence and most importantly seek allies as there's safety in numbers. Pack mentality. I dare say it would be public record who did this job, however be assured the company that did it would be proud of it, and proud to not have even enquired it was protected, and they my friend are prolific contractors to Q-Build. You have even witnessed so called "qualified arborists" topping trees. I am not surprised as I know, I live here, I hear the crap daily, I have customers ring and inform me of malpractices. The job I did around the corner from that school the customer asked if pruning like that was OK? People are bamboozled here as the trees on govt land display abominations the general public has difficulty accepting as right. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

28th August 2007, 01:42 AM	#5 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 877	How a goverment dept can get away with that astounds me! __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

28th August 2007, 05:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	This is pretty bad. At a school too. How many parents are gonna see that and think "well the school would surely be doing the right thing so we better get our trees at home done too" __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

29th August 2007, 10:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	News Flash! NEWS FLASH! Today I received a phone call from the Brisbane City Council environmental section telling me that they have no authority on State or Commonwealth land. Their vegetation protection orders are a toothless tiger. Although they have protection orders they cannot enforce anything or do anything. As State Schools are State land no trees are protected by council laws. I was advised to contact the State Government about the matter which I did. I rang the number right at the very bottom of the this page of the Dept of Natural Resources. Regional vegetation management codes I was then told to ring the Ipswich office as Brisbane area is looked after by them. I rang that office and reception put me through to Danny, who put me through to Doreen who put me through to Melissa who took a message for some-one to call me. So far 5 people and no-one knows anything about tree rules in State properties such as schools. Doreen did mention that the schools could also be leased by the Education dept and that could affect things. So I'm waiting, might shoot off an email to if zero back in 24 hours. From the outside looking in looks like there'll be a big fat ZERO protection, if that's the case then we need to go to our State politician as well as write to Premier Beatty. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

30th August 2007, 02:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
TREE-SURFER Mature tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Isle of Man,UK. Posts: 410	Sounds a bit like "ONE RULE FOR 'US' AND ANOTHER ONE FOR 'THEM'" __________________ The Aerial Arborist Isle of Man Tree Surgeon\| All Aspects of Tree Work Andy@Aerial-Arborist.co.uk What experts say about TOPPING

27th August 2007, 09:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Quintrex Mature tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 464	Hi Ekka, I had no idea that rough tree work was so rife in Qld! I take it that Q Build is Qld public works dept? In NSW the DPW&S (now dept of Commerce) requires that all works be carried out to the relevant Aus Standard as a minimum and that all relevant industry codes of practice are adhered to in every trade. Most contract organisers and works inspectors are aware of at least the basic necessity to prune to collars etc. looks like there's a great need for public education up there! Steve

28th August 2007, 03:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
pomme Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: england Posts: 220	exactly the same problems over here.

30th August 2007, 05:04 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	The variation in influence of tree protection across different land tenures and ownership is a common problem all over the world, certainly not unique to Qld. Seems to me the real issue is how best to encourage large companies and corporations to adopt the very same BMP's for the management of their vegetation/tree assets as they implement and demand in the management of their built assets. For me getting to explain to regional asset management what modern Arboriculture can offer in terms they can easily understand and appreciate is the task at hand. As I've stated before QBuild is a very large organisation, they are divided up into regional business units and futher divided within each region. Despite all the potential and actual structural problems from our perspective within their organisation the opportunity still exists to help them move beyond this kind of destructive, costly and substandard tree work. It is a slow, and at times frustrating process but our own National Standards do exist, other states have codes of practice, WH&S is gradually getting things moving....BMP's and the value for money spent they represent are increasingly hard to ignore, I'm confident things will change in our state..even up North. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

31st August 2007, 02:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	State Government Rules Queensland A guy called Daryl left message yesterday 4.10pm got message today thanks Optus Bit of message leaving BS ping pong and finally got hold of him. State govt rules, not sure, generally the State Govt is concerned about remnant vegetation and generally greater than 1 hectare in size. Asked about individual trees, waterways etc ... nothing according to them however there is some info that may help if you wish to research the 500page+ legeslative documents. There you go, load of shit I knew it would be. Unworkable, uncoordinanted, no logical laid out protection orders, no blanket protection orders ... basically they're just worried about land clearing. What a joke. He did say though that Australian Standards of pruning and any other relative state or federal rules/laws need to be up held. So, ultimately there's no rule as to who can assess, diagnose or work on a tree, you got tree loppers advising ignorants about tree care, as there's no rules. And they reckon this is the smart state. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors