Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues| NT school tree kills boy and were advised!

Ekka · 21st February 2008, 11:47 PM

My kids go to this school and I go there daily.

Chatswood Hills State School

That's where we shot this video
School children climbing dead wooding display

They have a strong emphasis on the environment, however things have really been sliding over the last year.

Here's some shots of the way a couple of eucs were treated on the site.

The two eucs and the trench.

Here you can see the torn roots and how close they went to the trunk. You cannot see the pipe/conduit they layed as partially filled.

Just a distance shot showing the ht and poor taper, that's because they were sheltered in a group but the group is gone and now they are fringe trees.

Here the trench is filled and of course the job couldn't be complete without the good ole concrete, not that it matters anyway as all those roots are dead.

Just another angle but dont forget, not far to the left is concrete path so these trees got a top deal.

There'll be more to come, and yes, I have emailed the principal ... that's the new principal that reckons all is under control and wouldn't give me an ounce of time ... just fobbed me off, reckons Q-Build and the gardener know best.

So, I'm starting to record things, the previous principal was most approachable and used to care and I'd help out. We also did a gardening day there and took the Kanga, moved rocks around and mulched gardens, ground stumps etc, the new principal probably wouldn't even know that happened.

kimtree · 22nd February 2008, 03:05 AM

that's standard up here,not much regard given to trees by plumbers etc

TreeDimensional · 22nd February 2008, 03:21 PM

Ekka, thats interesting, I am a bit curious on a few points. The first thing is, is this a public or private school? The second issue is who is Q-build? And finally, does the groundskeeper (gardener) have any qualifications for consulting on such a job.

If this is a public school, I wonder why the principal is calling the shots on work that could have MAJOR consequences. Here is Saskatchewan, all the public schools are funded by the Provincial government. The facilities and their maintenance are over-seen by a Division school board, which employ caretakers/grounds keepers. There is always a superintendent for facilities, whose job is to over see the maintenance and improvements to the infrastructure. When there are issues that require special consideration, the work is either allocated to specialists in the area or region. Major works are usually tendered, which unfortunately goes to the lowest bidder.

I appears obvious to me that the contractor did not know OR care that the work they were doing was GOING to impact the existing trees. It is my understanding that these are remaining trees from a group. If this is the case, the first thing that should have been done is an inspection to access the viability and health of the trees, of course there should have been a risk assessment done at that time also. Now there MUST be a risk assessment done to protect the users of the facility, the kids are a more valuable asset that the building, but it needs to be protected also.

If the principal asked the gardener to oversee the project, I think she may be in for a rocky ride. She might be held liable for putting the building and the students at risk, if her employee (gardener) isn't qualified to access the site. The gardener, if not qualified, was acting like our competitors in the private sector, HE would be considered an uneducated hack. If he was qualified to supervise the job, he would be considered a lousy supervisor.

I should have waited for my first three questions to be answered, but sometimes we put things on the back burner, if they don't directly effect us. Three years ago we started our first school contract, it took several years of advising, calling, and lobbying, to convince the school division that they had some serious tree issues. The contract we have is renewed annually, and so far every year the volume of work has doubled.

Like Ekka, I accept every time I am asked to speak to or show the students something. I would like you all to think of me as a good guy for doing it, but the truth is I enjoy giving the little ones a glimpse of what tree work is about, but the real truth is when little Johnny or Jane go home and tell Mom and Dad what they saw when I was there, it generates business for me.

Whenever public safety is an issue, the management MUST look to the professionals for advice, failing to do so is a blatant disregard to the laws of the land.

Ekka · 22nd February 2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDimensional

Ekka, thats interesting, I am a bit curious on a few points. The first thing is, is this a public or private school? The second issue is who is Q-build? And finally, does the groundskeeper (gardener) have any qualifications for consulting on such a job.

1/ This is a public school.

2/ Q-Build, it's the public works dept. Sometimes the school just reports tree problems to them, they come out and have a look and decide a good topping or lopping and some butchery plus witchcraft is best. They dont use consulting arborists and have a great selection criteria for their hacking tree loppers that goes something like ... cheapest is best. At this school they sent out a OHS officer to assess trees and a few were cut down based on BS frankly, one in particular was cut down because it was close to buildings, that's it, very scientific.

Here's some other great performances from them.

QBuild at it again in Bundaberg?

Arborists, what's wrong with this picture?

3/ The grounds keepers etc, certainly not qualifed! Now armed with a pole saw there's some great cuts going on. Soon after the new grounsperson started mulch volcanos appeared around trees. My wife had me print it out some info and she took it to the office to inform them, got a cool reception at the office, ends up the new gardener was husband of the receptionist lady she was complaining to, I think the technical term for such is nepotism.

The rest of your post was spot on, great stuff.

TreeDimensional · 25th February 2008, 05:19 PM

Ekka, I looked through your links in the previous post. It is apparently as you have been saying, the government evens seems to condone the mutilation of trees, and uses your taxes dollars to pay for it.

I am also disappointed that this thread is crashing and burning. After careful consideration, I think I can give you an answer for why no one is responding. The photos in post #1 of this thread show only damage in the root area. This is possibly seen as not such a big deal to most people, kinda like "out of sight, out of mind". I guess that more people think the green stuff on top is more important than the brown stuff below ground.

Life lessons have taught me that the worst place to be, when being struck is at the outside radius of the object doing the striking. I got a broken arm to prove it. I don't mean to down play the forces of a limb failing in a tree, but I would rather have a limb hit me than the whole tree.

As I am not a resident of Australia, I could only guess at the volatility of the weather. But with almost 50% of the root area being destroyed, I am sure the possibility of a wind throw is likely to happen.

For the members of Tree World from Brisbane, this is an opportunity to get together and stand up to the man (regulators). Ekka has demonstrated that he's willing to take one on the chin for you, will you for him?

There is no shame in banding together for a common goal, even if you are sometimes competitors. If you work to the best of your abilities and abide by the regulations, everyone except the hacks win.

pomme · 26th February 2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

For the members of Tree World from Brisbane, this is an opportunity to get together and stand up to the man (regulators). Ekka has demonstrated that he's willing to take one on the chin for you, will you for him?

There is no shame in banding together for a common goal, even if you are sometimes competitors. If you work to the best of your abilities and abide by the regulations, everyone except the hacks win.

Well said, If you all get together you MAY be listened to. but as i have said in other treads you will come up against the "we ve done it this way for years" brigade. Unfortunately those working in the private sector are more likely to keep updating their knowledge than public workers or perhaps its difficult to get new ideas listened to. from what i have seen in the uk very few councils implement the latest ideas and are prepared to accept sub-standard work for a cheap price. the biggest companies are the ones doing the poorest work so it would take a lot of small companies to band together to get anything done.

Good luck its a global problem

Ekka · 16th June 2008, 02:25 AM

Here's what happened elsewhere, the situation is not uncommon and cover ups deployed.

Northern Territory News

Quote:

27Feb08
SAFETY ISSUE: Former St Mary's Primary School principal Tony O'Brien leaving the Darwin Magistrates Court yesterday

SAFETY ISSUE: Former St Mary's Primary School principal Tony O'Brien leaving the Darwin Magistrates Court yesterday

THE groundsman at a Territory school where a 9-year-old boy was killed by a branch, said the principal ignored his pleas to maintain trees in order to save money, a coronial inquest heard yesterday.

Former St Mary's Primary School groundsman Tony Gooch told the Territory coroner yesterday he had written ``more than 10'' letters to former principal Tony O'Brien to get permission to maintain ``dangerous'' trees in the schoolyard, which ``regularly'' dropped big branches.

But Mr O'Brien refused ``98 per cent'' of the time, because of ``budget restraints'', the inquest was told.

``That's what he told me each time. That there wasn't enough money,'' Mr Gooch said. But the Darwin Magistrates Court heard yesterday Mr Gooch's letters and his personal file had not yet been found.

Mr Gooch was giving evidence during an inquest into the death of Darwin boy Aidan Bott.

Aidan died on August 29, 2006, at the Royal Darwin Hospital, seven days after he was hit on the head by a 7m African Mahogany tree branch.

Catholic Education Office and St Mary's lawyer Ben O'Loughlin said he was ``totally surprised'' by Mr Gooch's statements.

And the information distressed Aidan's mother Robyn Hunt, sitting in court with nine friends.

The inquest heard that during Mr O'Brien's tenure, no money was spent on tree maintenance in 2005, and only $210 by the time of the accident. The school had allocated $3000 in its budget to grounds maintenance that year.

``I thought it was very insufficient for the amount of work that had to be done at that stage,'' Mr Gooch told the inquest, describing the appearance of the school as ``grubby''.

Mr O'Brien, who was principal from 2003 until 2006, admitted the school looked ``run down'' but denied that he ever chose penny-pinching over making trees safe.

``I can't believe I would say that because it was a safety issue and I was very conscious of safety as principal,'' Mr O'Brien told the hearing.

Former principal, Sister Helen Little, said she did not ``pay attention'' to budget restraints but Mr O'Brien denied that he was brought in as a ``financial broom'' by the Catholic Education Office. He said the school was subject to ``regular reminding'' by the office to keep to budget.

And no parents or teachers had said the African Mahogany trees were dangerous, the inquest heard.

``The trees were regarded as a very significant part of St Mary's,'' he said.

Assisting counsel Jodi Truman said Aidan was with four friends under the tree _ one of three in the courtyard _ when the students heard a ``loud crack'' before running from the area.

``It appears Aidan was the only boy who was either sitting or kneeling at the time ... (and) he was simply unable to get up in time and run away with his friends,'' Ms Truman told the inquest.

Former policeman and St Mary's groundsman, David Butt, said he lay Aidan's slumped body on the ground after the branch fell, and his injuries looked ``fatal''.

The inquest continues today.

'We knew killer tree was dangerous' | The Courier-Mail

Quote:

March 19, 2008 07:48am

THE Territory Catholic Education Office and St Mary's Primary School have admitted they knew the tree that killed a schoolboy would "seriously hurt someone" five months before the tragedy.
Aidan Bott's mother wept as the Coroner's Court yesterday heard her son's death was "preventable and foreseeable'' by the people in charge of his safety.

The inquest could lead to a mandate that Territory school staff should be trained in tree management and trees be inspected regularly by arborists.

The Catholic Education Office (CEO) provided an "explosive'' letter to Coroner Greg Cavanagh yesterday. It showed the former principal, former CEO director and present deputy director all knew the tree was dangerous.

The letter was found only this week when CEO director Michael Avery paid for a private investigation into the school's archives.

Written by principal Tony O'Brien to director Bill Griffiths and deputy-director Greg O'Mullane, and dated March 2006, it said a "large tree branch'' fell in the school courtyard, which was metres away from where nine-year-old Aidan was sitting when an African mahogany branch killed him five months later.

Mr O'Brien wrote that "fortunately the children were in class'', but warned the tree had the
potential to seriously hurt'' students if not fixed.

When shown the letter this week, Mr O'Brien said he had forgotten about it.

Dr Griffiths and Mr O'Mullane said they just "can't remember'' receiving the letter.

Assisting counsel Jodi Truman said that evidence given by the CEO and Mr O'Brien was "at best poor ... at worst disingenuous''.

And if Mr Avery had not found the letters, the truth would never been uncovered.

"What's the old saying, 'It was a conspiracy or a stuff up - you pick the stuff up every time','' Mr Cavanagh said.

Ms Truman said Aidan's death was preventable and Mr Cavanagh should recommend that all Territory schools overhaul their approach to tree maintenance.

"I spoke to Aidan's mother ... and she said one day her little boy went to school and he never came home.

"She never wants that to happen to anyone else.''

Michael Powell, acting for Aidan's mother Robyn Hunt, said she - like every parent at St Mary's that day - thought "the safest place you could keep your kids during the day would be at school''.

But the school, suffering a $5million maintenance shortfall, had been "left to rack and ruin'', and "buckets of money'' - $46,000 - only "materialised'' to remove trees after the tragedy.

He said the CEO had been "disgusting and shameful'' during the inquest, resorting to an "attack'' on a former groundsman.

"For the family to suffer further trauma of a cover-up unravelling is utterly disgraceful,'' Mr Powell said.

CEO and St Mary's lawyer Tom Berkley said both bodies now admitted they "knew there was a danger'' with the tree''.

He said "other dangers'' to pupils, including a legionnaire's disease scare, received higher priority leading up to Aidan's death.

"Well meaning people had to make decisions ... and now it appears in hindsight ... those decisions could have been better,'' he said.

Mr Cavanagh adjourned the case to prepare his decision

Northern Territory News

Quote:

03May08

THE SCHOOLYARD death of a nine-year-old Darwin boy should have been prevented by the people taking care of him, the NT Coroner said yesterday.

Greg Cavanagh said there was ``no doubt'' former St Mary's Primary school principal Tony O'Brien and the NT Catholic Education Office knew the tree that killed Aidan Bott (picture left) was dangerous.

And they "did not do anything'' about it. "A little boy went to school one day and did not return,'' Mr Cavanagh said.

"The family is ... rightfully upset and distressed at this tragedy -- so too is the entire community.''

The Coroner chastised the school and the Catholic Education Office for not admitting earlier they knew the tree could potentially kill -- and for compounding the grief of a distraught mother and her family, who had lost Aidan forever.

"(Their) distress has been compounded by the manner in which legal representatives of the school and the Catholic Education Office ... went to some lengths to persuade me they had no relevant knowledge as to the risks by the tree in the school yard.''

But he said there was insufficient evidence of a crime in connection to Aidan's death.

As soon as Mr Cavanagh said "his death was a preventable death'', the boy's mother, Robyn Hunt, broke down in tears.

The decision came about a month after Ms Hunt had sat through a six-day inquest into Aidan's death from a brain injury after he was hit by a 7m African mahogany branch on August 22, 2006.

The coroner's 30-page findings say budget pinching by the school and Catholic Education Office increased tree danger at St Mary's.

The school spent just $3000 that year on ground maintenance, which was "seven to eight times less'' than other Territory public schools.

"This is simply inadequate in the extreme,'' Mr Cavanagh said.

The coroner recommended government agencies educate all NT private and public school principals on tree maintenance, with compulsory six-month inspections being done by arborists.

a_lopa · 16th June 2008, 03:36 AM

Scary!!! Problem sometimes with smaller schools with small budgets as well..I see it a fair bit here,they want to do but cant find the $$$.Then some responsible ones find the $$$ bout a 50/50 mix

kimtree · 17th June 2008, 03:17 AM

a few weeks i spent 10 hours of my time doing a big quote for the local catholic school,work to be done on about 65 trees,mostly removals.going in tomorrow for a meeting with the principal,but i suspect that i have completely wasted my time.you could sum up this schools tree maintenance program as on par with St Marys in darwin,historically they have only ever done work after a big storm has gone through,so most could be claimed on insurance.Not at all like the state run school just up the road where there is bi-annual program

Ekka · 17th June 2008, 05:12 AM

Maybe they like leaving it as "an act of God"

treeseer · 17th June 2008, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimtree

a few weeks i spent 10 hours of my time doing a big quote for the local catholic school,work to be done on about 65 trees,mostly removals.

Why so many? Was a risk assessment done?

newguy18 · 17th June 2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Maybe they like leaving it as "an act of God"

Yeah they could say that but in this case they obviously can't since they were warned about the tree[s]in question.It should be state or county[whichever you aussies use] that a qualified certified arborist or tree surgeon make at least an annual inspection of all trees on campus.I also think if budgets can't be made for human saftey maybe cut out sports or lesser programs.Whats more important,human lives or a weekend football game?

Ekka · 17th June 2008, 03:42 PM

Football for sure, cant cut out sports or the kids get fat!

It's about allocating a budget however when purse strings are tight (which

22nd February 2008, 03:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
kimtree Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: Kununurra WA Posts: 88	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues that's standard up here,not much regard given to trees by plumbers etc

22nd February 2008, 03:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 385	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues Ekka, thats interesting, I am a bit curious on a few points. The first thing is, is this a public or private school? The second issue is who is Q-build? And finally, does the groundskeeper (gardener) have any qualifications for consulting on such a job. If this is a public school, I wonder why the principal is calling the shots on work that could have MAJOR consequences. Here is Saskatchewan, all the public schools are funded by the Provincial government. The facilities and their maintenance are over-seen by a Division school board, which employ caretakers/grounds keepers. There is always a superintendent for facilities, whose job is to over see the maintenance and improvements to the infrastructure. When there are issues that require special consideration, the work is either allocated to specialists in the area or region. Major works are usually tendered, which unfortunately goes to the lowest bidder. I appears obvious to me that the contractor did not know OR care that the work they were doing was GOING to impact the existing trees. It is my understanding that these are remaining trees from a group. If this is the case, the first thing that should have been done is an inspection to access the viability and health of the trees, of course there should have been a risk assessment done at that time also. Now there MUST be a risk assessment done to protect the users of the facility, the kids are a more valuable asset that the building, but it needs to be protected also. If the principal asked the gardener to oversee the project, I think she may be in for a rocky ride. She might be held liable for putting the building and the students at risk, if her employee (gardener) isn't qualified to access the site. The gardener, if not qualified, was acting like our competitors in the private sector, HE would be considered an uneducated hack. If he was qualified to supervise the job, he would be considered a lousy supervisor. I should have waited for my first three questions to be answered, but sometimes we put things on the back burner, if they don't directly effect us. Three years ago we started our first school contract, it took several years of advising, calling, and lobbying, to convince the school division that they had some serious tree issues. The contract we have is renewed annually, and so far every year the volume of work has doubled. Like Ekka, I accept every time I am asked to speak to or show the students something. I would like you all to think of me as a good guy for doing it, but the truth is I enjoy giving the little ones a glimpse of what tree work is about, but the real truth is when little Johnny or Jane go home and tell Mom and Dad what they saw when I was there, it generates business for me. Whenever public safety is an issue, the management MUST look to the professionals for advice, failing to do so is a blatant disregard to the laws of the land.

25th February 2008, 05:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 385	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues Ekka, I looked through your links in the previous post. It is apparently as you have been saying, the government evens seems to condone the mutilation of trees, and uses your taxes dollars to pay for it. I am also disappointed that this thread is crashing and burning. After careful consideration, I think I can give you an answer for why no one is responding. The photos in post #1 of this thread show only damage in the root area. This is possibly seen as not such a big deal to most people, kinda like "out of sight, out of mind". I guess that more people think the green stuff on top is more important than the brown stuff below ground. Life lessons have taught me that the worst place to be, when being struck is at the outside radius of the object doing the striking. I got a broken arm to prove it. I don't mean to down play the forces of a limb failing in a tree, but I would rather have a limb hit me than the whole tree. As I am not a resident of Australia, I could only guess at the volatility of the weather. But with almost 50% of the root area being destroyed, I am sure the possibility of a wind throw is likely to happen. For the members of Tree World from Brisbane, this is an opportunity to get together and stand up to the man (regulators). Ekka has demonstrated that he's willing to take one on the chin for you, will you for him? There is no shame in banding together for a common goal, even if you are sometimes competitors. If you work to the best of your abilities and abide by the regulations, everyone except the hacks win.

16th June 2008, 03:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 865	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Scary!!! Problem sometimes with smaller schools with small budgets as well..I see it a fair bit here,they want to do but cant find the $$$.Then some responsible ones find the $$$ bout a 50/50 mix __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

17th June 2008, 03:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
kimtree Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: Kununurra WA Posts: 88	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis a few weeks i spent 10 hours of my time doing a big quote for the local catholic school,work to be done on about 65 trees,mostly removals.going in tomorrow for a meeting with the principal,but i suspect that i have completely wasted my time.you could sum up this schools tree maintenance program as on par with St Marys in darwin,historically they have only ever done work after a big storm has gone through,so most could be claimed on insurance.Not at all like the state run school just up the road where there is bi-annual program

17th June 2008, 05:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Maybe they like leaving it as "an act of God" __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

17th June 2008, 03:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues\| NT school tree kills boy and were advis Football for sure, cant cut out sports or the kids get fat! It's about allocating a budget however when purse strings are tight (which